Phantom Menace? It Meant Nothing!....Wrong!

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Stejo-Miwar, Jun 5, 2003.

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  1. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    And what about before you knewe there would be prequels? Apparently you didn't mind it too much back then...


    Before I knew there were prequels, I was about fourteen years old. After the prequels began release, that's when I looked into various parts of cinema. Screenwriting-wise, ANH is an amatureish script that relies heavily on details that were not known.
  2. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Well it's fairly obvious that Palpatine is sadistic and power hungry. His motivation is the lust for power that the dark side produces. It's as simple as that.


    Okay, but what about the revenge? It's tossed out there, but isn't explained. We can see that Palpatine wants power, and that's good; but the aspect of revenge opens up questions to the history of the Sith. Had Lucas simply omitted that line or said "At last, we will strike the Jedi!" and left it at that, it would have been much simpler. But in going that extra mile in introducing something to the story that wasn't necessary, he created another question for the audience to ask. He made a hole that wasn't necessary.
  3. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    201:

    Well, he'd be far from the first villain with that motivation, but he's also far from the deepest (though admittedly, the PT has been good to his character, more so than most of the rest).

    Now, LucasCop, if you want to present a convincing case as to why some of Lucas' more questionable calls qualify as good filmmaking, you might want to do better than fall back on such worn cliches.
  4. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Loco_for_Lucas:

    I'd say the opposite about ANH's screenplay; while most of the back story is indeed left off-camera (where all but the most relevant bits of it belong), the film explains its own proceedings well enough that an attentive audience can easily follow.

    Whatever your feelings on the ambition of its scope, however, the script boasts many unqualified strengths. The heroes are constantly proactive, and written with geniune passion--and just as with all the most successful heroic fiction, they have powerful, tangible foes to fight. The story keeps moving at all times, weaving through multiple locations and scenarios without missing a beat. The stakes constantly escalate, and the pace quickens to match it.

    Throw in its Campbellian influences, and you've got a work that few lovers of the genre have ever managed to equal.
  5. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, from a technical standpoint, ANH has flaws and strengths, but it's the final product that matters. And ANH has prospered as far.
  6. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "Before I knew there were prequels, I was about fourteen years old. After the prequels began release, that's when I looked into various parts of cinema. Screenwriting-wise, ANH is an amatureish script that relies heavily on details that were not known."


    And yet it still entertains. Same as TPM.


    "Okay, but what about the revenge? It's tossed out there, but isn't explained. We can see that Palpatine wants power, and that's good; but the aspect of revenge opens up questions to the history of the Sith. Had Lucas simply omitted that line or said "At last, we will strike the Jedi!" and left it at that, it would have been much simpler. But in going that extra mile in introducing something to the story that wasn't necessary, he created another question for the audience to ask. He made a hole that wasn't necessary."


    The Jedi are sure the Sith have been extinct for a thousand years. Why? Maybe they were the ones who wiped them out? Burtola or someone else said this on the last page, and it still stands.


    "Well, he'd be far from the first villain with that motivation, but he's also far from the deepest (though admittedly, the PT has been good to his character, more so than most of the rest)."


    Well, Lucas has never been one to try to avoid using elements such as this one from other stories that came before SW. Why start now? ;) Besides, Palpatine is driven by the dark side of the Force. That's original! ;) Also, he seems to be a little bit insane himself, even without the dark side involved. He's one of the deepest villains I know of. But that's beside the point. ;)
  7. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    Now, LucasCop, if you want to present a convincing case as to why some of Lucas' more questionable calls qualify as good filmmaking, you might want to do better than fall back on such worn cliches.

    Actually....the only argument I'm making is that the supposed "deficiencies" that are being presented here are not valid reasons to compare the success of TPM with respect to ANH.

    If you don't like TPM, that's fine. No one says you need to like everything. But TPM is written in much the same vein as ANH, but many of the diehard OT fans are incapable of accepting it due to the three suppositions I provided at the beginning of this thread.

    TPM lacks in many ways in what would be considered "Oscar material". But I don't watch Star Wars to get that sort of fix. Sure, there are gems here and there throughout the saga, but I'm not expecting infallible material from Lucas. I'm not sure why a good portion of OT fans did though back in 1999 to such an extent that it caused them to bash the new products. The rationale can only come down to three reasons:

    1) Failure to meet 16 years of expectation.
    2) Failure to come to grips with the fact that it is impossible for Star Wars to undergo the same cultural impact it once experienced.
    3) Failure to understand a chronological six-part mythical design.

    That's all. And pushing the blame on Lucas is inappropriate from that vantage point.
  8. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Actually....the only argument I'm making is that the supposed "deficiencies" that are being presented here are not valid reasons to compare the success of TPM with respect to ANH.

    If you don't like TPM, that's fine. No one says you need to like everything. But TPM is written in much the same vein as ANH, but many of the diehard OT fans are incapable of accepting it due to the three suppositions I provided at the beginning of this thread.


    As a Classic Trilogy fan, I was disappointed; but basing the film only on its own merit, I was further disappointed. It was fairly sloppy in many avenues independent of the first three.

    TPM lacks in many ways in what would be considered "Oscar material". But I don't watch Star Wars to get that sort of fix. Sure, there are gems here and there throughout the saga, but I'm not expecting infallible material from Lucas. I'm not sure why a good portion of OT fans did though back in 1999 to such an extent that it caused them to bash the new products.


    I don't think anybody at these boards watches Star Wars for "Oscar Material." It's safe to say.

    The rationale can only come down to three reasons:

    1) Failure to meet 16 years of expectation.
    2) Failure to come to grips with the fact that it is impossible for Star Wars to undergo the same cultural impact it once experienced.
    3) Failure to understand a chronological six-part mythical design.

    That's all. And pushing the blame on Lucas is inappropriate from that vantage point.


    Like I said, it's the usual "It's the Fan's Fault" argument that's thrown around so much.
  9. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    What few problems TPM has that can't be blamed on the fans, ANH has as well, and just about every other SW movie (except TESB).
  10. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    As a Classic Trilogy fan, I was disappointed; but basing the film only on its own merit, I was further disappointed.

    I can appreciate your disappointment. You are entitled to that opinion. But as I had been arguing, your disposition as you claim in each post is rationalized by one of the three suppositions, not "on its own merit".

    The only "good" argument I have found in this entire thread is the one from gezvader about the lack of a development of friendship. Indeed, that quality in ANH (and the OT) was one of the most revered. Of course, one might argue that it would be inappropriate to make that comparison between trilogies simply because Lucas is relaying a six-part saga, and TPM's setting involves a different set of characters with a different set of goals and motivations. But purely on its own merit, this basic storytelling deficiency would be enough to turn off the regular viewer. Still, for the average fan of the Star Wars myth, it would be immaterial. Well?.at least enough so to avoid the perpetual character assassinations of George Lucas across boards like this and the endless ranting of how the man raped the childhood of fanboys the world over due to his lack of care for his work and simple thirst of greed. All of which are unfounded and completely unfair. The only reason why these curses have become so rampant in the first place is because we live in the information age, an age where anyone and everyone has an opinion and can spew it relentlessly in comfort with utter anonymity. It's the "sexy" thing to do.

    In the interest of fairness, let me repeat gezvader's well constructed post:
    By the end of ANH I could clearly see that the bond of friendship between Han, Luke and Leia was incredibly strong, I cared about these characters a lot.

    In the PT Obi, Anakin and Padme are the main characters, and their relationship with one another in TPM is woefully underdeveloped - anakin and Obi hardly speak, nor do Obi and Padme; and there's nothing between Padme + anakin either. By the end of the film I couldn't care less about them, my only interest is because they're the mother and father of Luke and Leia.

    Even for the secondary characters its a mess - R2 and 3PO are introduced and developed brilliantly in ANH, but in TPM their scenes together don't add up to much at all.

    The only interesting character was Shmi but she isn't fated to appear much in the other movies. Nor is QG or Maul.

    as far as I'm concerned the movie could've been edited down to about 60 minutes, show Anakin having to leave his mother, establish Palpy and his political shenanigans and then move onto Anakin as an adult in the second half. As it is there's very little in TPM of any worth.


    I have never said that TPM or the PT is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Yet I realize too that I've developed into adulthood to appreciate works of entertainment in a different light. I either accept a product or I don't. But in order to do so, I need to find the worthiness and benefit in doing so. If I choose not to accept it, I find other things to enjoy and resist the urge to wallow in angst over what it is not. I find Star Wars truly one of the only fun mythical experiences in existence that possesses a multi-leveled philosophical approach to storytelling.

    That is why Star Wars is experienced by all generations. That is why Star Wars will live on.
  11. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Okay, but what about the revenge? It's tossed out there, but isn't explained. We can see that Palpatine wants power, and that's good; but the aspect of revenge opens up questions to the history of the Sith. Had Lucas simply omitted that line or said "At last, we will strike the Jedi!" and left it at that, it would have been much simpler. But in going that extra mile in introducing something to the story that wasn't necessary, he created another question for the audience to ask. He made a hole that wasn't necessary.

    I don't understand why you keep pushing this. I've explained it for you, yet you ignore the obvious explanation. I'm starting to think you want to create complications to dislike it further.

    The whole idea of the Sith having revenge is at first purely an emotional motive, for some reason these guys hate the Jedi and want to kill them.
    Then later when its mentioned that the Jedi believed the Sith to be extinct fo nearly 1000 years, if you connect the dots (yes you have to use your brain :p ) then maybe the Sith want revenge on the Jedi for bringing their Order to the brink of extinction.

    Now thats not a hole, its not even close. What Lucas is allowing the audience to do is make an assumption and because its a myth that assumption is entirely valid because we'll never know what happens just that it happened.
    Why do you not like Lucas allowing the audience to make assumptions in TPM? He did the same thing with ANH.....oh wait thats right thats entirely different.....Jeez [face_plain]
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