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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Phantom Menace still the best?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ExarKunPJ, May 26, 2005.

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  1. Vad3r

    Vad3r Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2004
    TPM is to this recent generation as ANH was to the old one.

    It's a good film (better than AOTC imo), but I would say ROTS is better.
     
  2. Tyranus_the_Hutt

    Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Lucas could have shown this side of slavery?but instead he gives us Watto the Wacky, who really isn?t that cruel or intimidating. He even lets Anakin go home early. I?ve had worse bosses than him!

    Your comments are accurate to a point, but while the slavery depicted in "The Phantom Menace" is considered with an apparent insouciance, I would not imagine that a film such of this needs to be completely mired in a solemn and despairing commentary on humanity. This is a space-opera, not a polemic a la "Uncle Tom's Cabin", nor should it be; as kupo has already pointed out, Lucas needs only to convey the idea of slavery, not its manifest trappings and intricacies. This is a film that is about a slave, not slavery itself, and that is an important distinction to make.

    Watto is a character whose presence in this film, while discounted by many, adds a sense of energy and humor to the proceedings, which essentially prevents the picture from being bogged down in a morass of extensive dialogue. Sure, he is a slightly fatuous creature, but I also found him to be an incredibly inventive and entertaining addition to the film - no, Watto isn't a "convincing" characterization of someone who enslaves others, but the film encompasses no aspirations of this nature, and so to criticize it for being superficial in this respect is perhaps missing the point. I have said this before, but I imagine that Lucas was attempting to permeate "Menace" with a more prominent, blithesome tone that, when applied to the larger context of the saga (in this case, namely Episodes I-III) allows the viewer to consider the gradual narrative and tonal progression from this film, which is overty jovial, to "Attack of the Clones", which is more of a transitional picture, I suppose, that negotiates aspects of the dominant tone in "Menace", while beginning to anticipate the crushing, lugubrious aspects of "Episode III", at which point the story is basically consumed with a sense of despair. In his venture to do this, I believe that Lucas adorned "Episode I" with too much saccharine material, and perhaps should have been slightly more judicious in his consideration of such things, as some of the peripheral aspects of this film verge on becoming cloying - but alas, it is only my perspective. Conceptually, however, Lucas at the very least had ascertained the correct manner in which to convey his story, even if he was not wholly successful in his execution.

    Jar Jar is horribly lame and annoying, but also he gets a huge amount of screen time. He gets more lines than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Can anyone defend this? It?s obvious Lucas had big plans for Jar Jar before he realized the creature would be universally despised. Why would Lucas spend so much time on a character in the first of a three part series to just abandon him for the next two films? It?s such a lopsided concept.

    I don't believe that Jar Jar has as much actual screen-time as it might otherwise appear; however, with that said, it is certainly more than I am able to tolerate. I would not have been terribly bothered by his presence had Lucas possessed the foresight to limit and control the specific passages of film in which the character appears; it was a mistake, for instance, to allow Binks to accompany Qui-Gon and Amidala on Tatooine - Jar Jar occasionally impedes the fluid, dramatic concatenation that would otherwise develop in his absence. A good example of this would be as the central characters gather at the Skywalker's dinner table partway through the film; initially, the scene appears inert, as it is focused on the Gungan's somewhat puerile antics, until Qui-Gon grabs Jar Jar's tongue, and draws an abrupt close to the silliness. Lucas clearly wants to promulgate the conceit that Jar Jar serves as a source of irritation to many of the film's human characters as well, thus neutralizing the acerbating material for the audience; this is a clever idea, yet the director is unable to properly manipulate the underlying constructs of his film in such a way that would acc
     
  3. RurouniKJS

    RurouniKJS Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 4, 2005
    TPM isn't nearly as "plodding" as some people would have you think, IMO.
    Lucas followed a tried and true narrative structure, start with a bang (beginning through escaping Naboo), pull back (Tatooine to the pod race), throw in a "crisis" (a crucial event to the plot that is not really the climax-in this case, the pod race), pull back and continue with rising action (Coruscant), hit a raucous climax (the four inter-cut battles), and then finish with an appropriately emotional denoument.


    As usual, I heartily disagree. At my 1st screening of TPM, I was amazed at how boring the first few minutes of the film were until the lightsabers came on. I also found the bulk of the first act between the Jedi landing on Naboo and their rescue of the Queen to be boring as well, despite the repetitive "almost being eaten" scenes in da Planet Core. Then, after this first act, the film plods for an hour on Tatooine to find parts for their spaceship. Tension is almost nil; humor is sophomoric when it shows up at all. There's no sense of wonder or discovery or tension as we got in the "slow" parts of every other SW film.

    After the podrace, we're treated to another long piece of mostly boring expository filler with all the Senatorial and Council scenes, as well as a final bit of dull exposition to hook the Naboo with the Gungans. And then, FINALLY, for the climax the film really hits its stride.
     
  4. rlddrummer

    rlddrummer Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Phantom Menace is the worst of the prequels in my opinion, but far from a bad film.
     
  5. DarkSider99

    DarkSider99 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2005
    TPM isnt that good the only part i liked was obi quigonvs maul
     
  6. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    I like it but not as much as AOTC and ROTS. I would rank the PT films like this:

    1)ROTS
    2)AOTC
    3)TPM

    If you look in my sig you will see how I rank all of the Star Wars films.
     
  7. RandyS

    RandyS Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2005
    "TPM was the worst of the prequels in my opinion."

    I agree. TPM was nothing more than a VERY VERY bad remake of A New Hope. ATOC was much better, and personally I can't see why most people hate it.

    ROTS was, of course, the best of the prequels.
     
  8. POTAStar

    POTAStar Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 26, 2001
    How is TPM anything like ANH? Give me a break, seriously, list how it is a "bad" remake of ANH, I can't wait to hear it.
     
  9. RandyS

    RandyS Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2005
    TPM:
    Anakin leaves Tattooine with Kenobi
    Big battle with the bad guys at the end
    Kenobi's mentor dies in Lightsaber fight with the Sith lord
    Big celerbration at the end

    ANH:
    Luke leaves Tattooine with Kenobi
    Big battle with the bad guys at the end
    Luke's mentor dies in Lightsaber fight with the Sith Lord
    Big celebration at the end.
     
  10. BC_Eagles_67

    BC_Eagles_67 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2005
    It was the best Star Wars movie released in 1999. Thats about it.
     
  11. zillas_revenge2

    zillas_revenge2 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    Phantom Menace definitely had the best score of the newer trilogy.
     
  12. General Madine

    General Madine Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    - Jabba's Palace. The first half-hour of the film seems burdensome at times.
    - The Ewoks with their "meet the Flintstones" contraptions defeating the Imperial garrison on the forest moon of Endor.
    - The Ewoks in general, making this finale rather more childish than it should be.
    - Death Star II. If we're going to brand the Menace droid control ship as unoriginal, then so is this second 'technological terror.'
    - Some of the dialogue is weaker, not to mention the drop in acting quality in comparison to the film's predecessors.


    All reasons why ROTJ is my least-favorite OT film.

    Historically, not all slavery was as brutal as American slavery.

     
  13. HighfanoftheJedi

    HighfanoftheJedi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    How about this: the title "The Phantom Menace" was by far the most creative out of ANY of the films, although "A New Hope" is good as well. I think all the other titles are a bit corny, but the Ep. I title took some thinking, I still think about that title scrolling across the big screen on May 19th, '99.
     
  14. RandyS

    RandyS Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2005
    "It was the best Star Wars movie released in 1999. That's about it."

    Actually, it was the ONLY Star Wars movie released in 1999.


    THAT's about it.
     
  15. TrueJedi

    TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    In the latest poll in these forums that I've seen, TPM was doing the worst. And I agree. It was an unfortunate error on GL's part.
     
  16. holyisitnot

    holyisitnot Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2005
    TPM is ok, I guess, if not for the forced plot line, specially when Qui Gon Jin concocts a complicated scheme to get enough money to fix their damaged ship. It would have been wiser and far easier to have sold the ship at a discount and to have bought another ship altogether. They would not even have been traced. I guess GL needed a way to establish some facts about Anakin and bring him in contact with the Jedi. But the wagers just dont convince.
     
  17. Darth_Kickass

    Darth_Kickass Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Well you have to admit, Obi wan v.s Darth Maul is almost as cool as obi wan V.s Anakin.
     
  18. JediStarKiller

    JediStarKiller Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2005
    Hahaha..he was being sarcastic when he said it was the best star wars movie released in 1999. Geezzz...read and think before you type. Stop bashing it. Bash it. It doesn't matter, love it or hate it. You can do both as a Star Wars...but everyone has seen it and probably everyone owns it. You need to have all of them for the complete saga. I will say the OT is better. But the PT is still star wars, and I'll take all of star wars I can get...because I love it.
     
  19. kupo

    kupo Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2005
    First, I must start by saying that your posts are a true pleasure to read, tyranus_the_hutt. You casually employ a vocabulary unlike that of anyone I've ever known. But it's not bombastic in the least; your points are truly insightful and entertaining to read.

    You are the first person I've spoken to that was able to articulate and pick out one of these "shapeless" scenes I've heard of in a concrete fashion in which I understood where you were coming from. That said, I must say that this seems a very trifle complaint to me, at least considering what the scene does accomplish from a narrative view. As George intimates in the audio commentary, and as the scene makes quite apparent, this section of the film was our introduction to the Jedi, and was meant to establish them as the superior force; the characters in control and to be feared. It starts nicely with a calm pan to an incoming ship. the only view of the Jedi we have is from the back, a cryptic introduction. We then see them enter, robed and hooded figures, essentially druidic. Their initial dialogue is sage-like. George has established them as wise "sorcerer-like" beings. Next, we learn of the plot to rid of them, flash to the Jedi realizing something is not right. Next, the action starts, as the Jedi and the scene literally ignites after the tension has built. They chop through droids like butter and begin tearing through the blast door like it's cardboard. Finally, the droidekas come and as Qui-Gon informs, a "stale-mate" occurs and the Jedi run. I can see how you might say that this exit seems "empty," but since the scene has already accomplished all it set out to do, I can't say I even I even really notice this. Story"telling" is actually, as most know, more about "showing." But decisions DO have to be made, some things will inevitably be left to exposition. Here what was essential to show was the characterization of the Jedi. Their escape was really not important. we only needed to know that they did escape. If anything, I think this shows George was VERY assured of the story's direction. He realized the greater narrative implications of his scenes, I think, and really flourished in crafting them. I personally love this scene, it's one of my favorites of the prequels, because he was SO successful in introducing the Jedi as true inter-galactic superheroes.

    I am truly curious, though, what other examples of these "shapeless scenes" do you have? I'd like to hear some, so I can attempt to evaluate what I think their effects on the film are.
     
  20. Sebulba_Wins

    Sebulba_Wins Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2005
    TPM is my favorite of all of them by a long shot. I've even found that as time goes on I've become more tolerant for Jar Jar as well. It's only real weakness in my opinion is that the space battle at the end isn't as good as the ones in the OT.
     
  21. Sebulba_Wins

    Sebulba_Wins Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2005
    After reading through the thread I did find another failing of TPM, and it is the two headed announcer. I'd forgot about this horrible character since he's buried in one of the best scenes in the saga.
     
  22. Grilled-Sarlacc

    Grilled-Sarlacc Former Head Admin star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2001
    Forget the announcer. He (they) is not a film fault. I am sure we can all find certain specific individual characters we did not like in all 6 films. So what.
     
  23. Tyranus_the_Hutt

    Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2004
    First, I must start by saying that your posts are a true pleasure to read, tyranus_the_hutt. You casually employ a vocabulary unlike that of anyone I've ever known. But it's not bombastic in the least; your points are truly insightful and entertaining to read.

    Wow, that is an extremely generous compliment, kupo, one I am not certain that I deserve; nonetheless, thank you very much for having offered such encomiastic remarks. I do not intend to spout platitudes with this submission, but your posts are likewise thoroughly articulate, comprehensive, and intelligent.

    You are the first person I've spoken to that was able to articulate and pick out one of these "shapeless" scenes I've heard of in a concrete fashion in which I understood where you were coming from. That said, I must say that this seems a very trifle complaint to me, at least considering what the scene does accomplish from a narrative view. As George intimates in the audio commentary, and as the scene makes quite apparent, this section of the film was our introduction to the Jedi, and was meant to establish them as the superior force; the characters in control and to be feared.

    I don't find this underlying concept to be inherently flawed, but rather, the realization of said material exhibits a dearth of progressive fluidity and ease; this passage of the film begins well, but portions of it appear to be uncommonly short, even perfunctory.

    It starts nicely with a calm pan to an incoming ship. the only view of the Jedi we have is from the back, a cryptic introduction. We then see them enter, robed and hooded figures, essentially druidic. Their initial dialogue is sage-like. George has established them as wise "sorcerer-like" beings. Next, we learn of the plot to rid of them, flash to the Jedi realizing something is not right.

    The Jedi entrance recalls both Obi-Wan's initial reveal in "A New Hope," in addition to Luke's introduction at Jabba's palace in "Return of the Jedi"; the characteristic wide-shots which encompass cloaked Jedi figures has become a tenet of these pictures, as has the repitition of thematic, musical, and visual flourishes. This portion of the sequence in question unfolds quite gracefully, and Lucas is able to display an economical editing technique, which cross-cuts between the concurrent planes of activity, in a manner that exemplifies a sort of refined ease.

    Next, the action starts, as the Jedi and the scene literally ignites after the tension has built. They chop through droids like butter and begin tearing through the blast door like it's cardboard. Finally, the droidekas come and as Qui-Gon informs, a "stale-mate" occurs and the Jedi run. I can see how you might say that this exit seems "empty," but since the scene has already accomplished all it set out to do, I can't say I even I even really notice this. Story"telling" is actually, as most know, more about "showing." But decisions DO have to be made, some things will inevitably be left to exposition. Here what was essential to show was the characterization of the Jedi. Their escape was really not important. we only needed to know that they did escape. If anything, I think this shows George was VERY assured of the story's direction. He realized the greater narrative implications of his scenes, I think, and really flourished in crafting them. I personally love this scene, it's one of my favorites of the prequels, because he was SO successful in introducing the Jedi as true inter-galactic superheroes.

    Once again, I don't find the Jedi's convenient escape to be objectionable on an abstract level, yet the editing and direction in this portion of the film make it appear as though the proceedings are unintentionally terse; there needs to be a greater dynamic imparted onto the action, which would properly contextualize the Jedi's decampment in a manner which feels whole, as it adheres to the artistic and structural paramaters of the scene. It seems to me that this segment of the film becomes an exhibition of abrupt moments, rather tha
     
  24. Benny_Blanco

    Benny_Blanco Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2002

    Oh my God! You`ve (presumably as an SW fan) just seen ROTS, and you post this? How many times did TPM make U want to cry?
     
  25. kupo

    kupo Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2005
    Thank you very much for the reply, Tyranus. It was, not surprisingly, very enlightening.

    I sat down earlier this afternoon and watched the beginning of "Menace" (until I reached the dinner scene on Tatooine). I must say, I could very easily see what you are articulating. The beginning of the film, up until they reach the Queen on Naboo, IMO, has a slightly disjointed feeling. It's almost as though it's a montage of images that do have an overriding narrative that one can follow, but it feels as though we're watching... compiled highlights, if you will. As you say, one understands what is unfolding, but it feels perfunctory. We're being shown ONLY what is necessary. While there are definitely still gems hidden in this section of film (usually in the form of particularly beatiful pans or shots, or musical compositions that are striking), it does feel a bit choppy. Viewers might desire a greater continuity in this part of the movie; something to give a greater sense of "fullness."

    I can't say this new view has really moved TPM's position on my "list," though. I truly think conceptually George created a masterpiece in this film. It's the one film, more than any other, that makes me feel like I HAVE tapped into my inner child. I can, please forgive the terribly cheesy cliche, feel the "magic." TPM truly has the most romantic feel of any of the movies, and I suppose that is why I enjoy it so. However, I find all of this very engaging, and it has given me much greater insight into some of the more technical aspects of filmmaking.
     
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