Rocky M, NC Philosophical Debate on Religion **Enter At Your Own Risk**

Discussion in 'South East Regional Discussion' started by Lodreh, Apr 23, 2004.

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  1. Lodreh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    **WARNING PLEASE READ**

    This is a free thinking debate. You may read some upsetting views but know that these views are not directed at any one person or group. Feel free to partake in as much or as little of the conversation as you see fit. NOTE: Personal attacks will not be tolerated in this thread. Deal with your "Demons" some place else.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force. If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
  2. Lodreh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    I made a comment in another thread that "God" could not be all knowing, all powerful, and all forgiving. I admit he could be any combination of the two but not all three. Kazuma_Kuahara asked a very good question, "Why not?" To this I will answer using only common sense just follow along.

    If "God" is all knowing then he would know things past, present and future. If "God" is all powerful then he can institute change on every level. If "God" is all forgiving then he will allow anyone into his kingdom of heaven.

    If "God" is only all knowing and all forgiving then he knows what you will do before you are born and forgives you of the things you will do. But he is powerless to stop you.

    If "God" is only all knowing and all powerful then he knows what you will do before you are born and could stop you but doesn't because he really doesn't forgive the action and you deserve to go to hell.

    If "God" is only all powerful and all forgiving then he is blind to what you will do. He could've stopped it if he knew. However, since he did not he forgives you.

    If "God" is all three then he knows what you are going to do before you are ever born. He could smite you if he doesn't like what you are currently doing or will do in the future. However, you have already been forgiven so it does not really matter how you live your life, you will still go to heaven. That view seems a bit flawed to me.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force. If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
  3. Entropy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 4
    The reason it seems flawed is because you are ignoring the concept of free will. For good or evil, God allows us to choose our own path. That includes deciding whether or not to ask for forgiveness. Also, I would argue that part of the perceived flaw is a matter of semantics. It would probably be more accurate to say that He has the capacity to be all forgiving.
  4. Lodreh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    In all fairness I concede on the point for the capacity of being all forgiving...

    However, if it is "Free Will" then he could not know the outcome... thus could not be all knowing. The fact that it is set is destiny and goes against the idea of "Free Will".

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force. If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
  5. Drakkor_Knightmoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2004
    star 3
  6. eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2003
    star 4
    I was always under the impression the "All Knowing" meant all knowing right now.
  7. Lodreh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    Since Entropy has not yet issued a rebuttal, what do you think about destiny verses "Free Will" can't have both.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force. If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
  8. Lodreh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    If you "Knew" everything beyond a shadow of a doubt then would you not also know the history surrounding it and the ultimate outcome of it?

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force. If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
  9. eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2003
    star 4
    Again, I dont think about this kind of thing to much. I think we all have a destiny, but how we get there is affected by our choices. Anakin is an example I can relate to. We all know he is destined to bring balance to the Force. HOW he gets to that point is affected by HIS choices.
  10. eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2003
    star 4
    I can sit at work and watch my daughter on a webcam at her preschool. I would be knowing everything she is doing as she is doing it. I would not, however, know how her day is going to end or whats going to happen next.
  11. Mordtat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2004
    star 3
    This was from an old post and I like to see what some of the newer people think.

    The Passion of the Christ

    Oh yes the movie about the Jews killing my savior. Oh the humanity.

    I wish I could speak to one of these people who want to know my opinion on God and the movie.

    I would say:

    I am angry at religion.
    I am angry at how people cast their views on others in the hope of converting someone.
    I am angry that religious freedom is governed.
    I am angry that religions of love breed armies of hate.
    I am angry that people blaspheme God by using God to control people.
    I am angry that people are willing to give their views but will not listen to others.
    I am angry that leaders are most often the very candidate that they preach against.
    I am angry that I have only felt the presence of the Lord once and that it only lasted a few minutes.
    I am angry that I can speak to God but he does not return my calls.
    I am angry at people who can not see that all religions are closely tied togther.
    I am angry that there is so much violence when it comes to religion.
    I am angry about being angry about religion.
    I am angry that I can not solve all the problems that are in this world.
    I am angry that I want a spiritual connection with God yet I can't seem to connect.

    I am angry in general, I want salvation yet I get suffering. To live is to die. It is how you live your life that matters. I will contiune to do as I think is right, I pray that is how God wishes us to live but I am not sure and until God returns my calls I will never be enlightened.

    My only wish is that the world see people for who they are and that for the most part God is God no matter how you spell it.

    Why have someone tell you how to live and what to believe. I rather live how I feel is right and believe in what I feel in my heart is right. I may be going to hell but atleast I made my choice and not followed someone else off that bridge.

    added:

    My views on God are a combined force from all religions. I honestly feel that majority of the world's religions are closely tied together. I know that accepting others is a way to prevent conflict. I think the world needs a course in adapting.

  12. Entropy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 4
    Pre-destination vs. freewill is a debate that has raged for a long time, and probably will never be answered in life. However, here is my take on it.

    Just because you know what choices are going to be made doesn't prevent a person from being making a choice. I guess I just don't see the two as mutually exclusive.

    Here's a example: I tell my nephew that he can have a peice of candy or that he can have a spanking. I know which option he will choose, but he was still given a choice.
  13. Mordtat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2004
    star 3
    What is really sad is the fact you can conclude a few things about God:

    He is sick to have allowed some of the things that goes on.

    Or

    He has just left his attention from us and has been working on a new world.

    Or

    He does not exist and this whole debate has been pointless.

    I wonder if the reason we believe in God is the fact our own pride and fear keeps us from seeing there is nothing after death other than the void. We no longer exist.....

    Scary thoughts, I want to share that with the Passion of the Christ Lady, I bet she will tell me "Let me show you something." She was sad.
  14. Drakkor_Knightmoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2004
    star 3
    she was and it was your fault we had to stay there for like 2 freakin' hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  15. eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2003
    star 4
    Cam, ALOT of people are angry, confused, etc, etc about religion. I am a firm believer that Jesus died for all our sins on the cross. Does that make me perfect? Hell no, FAR from it. Do I live like He wants me to. Sadly, no. I have very little use for "the church" anymore. To many of them have become social clubs where snobs can say "well, WE have this much in OUR building fund" or "well, WE have a gym, a spa, AND an 1800 sq. ft fellowship hall." Thats one of the things, IMO, that turn so many people away from church and from God. SO many "Christians" are seen as holier-than-thou snobs. Trust me my friend when I tell you thats not what He has in mind. Funny that there is a story in the New Testament about Jesus going to the temples and basically throwing a fit because of the way things were being sold from them and that they were being used for things other then worship.

    As for people trying to convert others, that is one of the main charges of being a Christian. He wants us to talk to others about Him. Now some can do it without turning people off, some cant. But remember this: They are only trying to help you, and no I'm not trying to preach. I'm just tellig you from their perspective.
    Whether you choose to believe or listen is your choice. But their is no need to be hostile towards a person who, in their mind, is trying to help you. Of course thats the way its always been. But anyway, just take anything they give you and walk away if you dont want to listen. Just my $.02 worth.
  16. Mordtat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2004
    star 3
    Honestly it was my fault. I should have shot her and did us all a favor. She lied about the free food. I think I hate her.
  17. Drakkor_Knightmoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2004
    star 3
    well I GOT FREE FOOD out of it and i was the only one to asnwer the two questions correctly
    1. If you died right now, would you go to heaven?

    2. If you got to heaven and stood before God, what would the reason for you to get into heaven?

    Lod-reh you wont get into heaven just 'cuz you are a funny guy.
  18. Lodreh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    Oh well, I guess I'll see you in hell then ;)

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force. If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
  19. Drakkor_Knightmoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2004
    star 3
    Wait i got the questions right... why would i go to Hell? me im going to heaven... i believe
  20. Lodreh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    It was a joke... funny guy... ah, forget it.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force. If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
  21. Shindo_Windu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2004
    star 4
    **Holding his ammo for a later date**
  22. Yoda1968 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2004
    star 2
    God allows for us to make our own choices, (free will) He is a merciful God, therefore he dosent just take us out, because we choose to make bad choices. He loves us even if we chose to do our own thing in life. He is really not the one who sends us to hell, we because of our own bad choices, like not excepting Jesus as our Lord and Savoir sends us to hell. God wants us all to be with him, but we cant due to our choices. Day after day that he gives us another breath we have that choice to either execpt and to believe that Jesus Died for our sins, and rose again,
    or not to except and believe with all our hearts and souls and go to hell. God is merciful to us, he allows us to make bad choices to learn from them.Besides if was wasnt merciful, nobody would exist today, cause we all sin.
  23. cinemafreak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 4
    If you try to remove the choice to sin, or disobey from people, you take the role of God. Last time I checked, he wasn't too keen on that.
  24. JediRiff FanForce CR Rocky Mount NC US

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 5
    Well said, both of you. :D
  25. Lodreh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    I honestly believe the Bible is a collection of parables on how to try and live your life. You can tell it was written by a man due to all the contradictory arguments presented within... and maybe that is the true message of the Bible... that we are all different and should respect everyone's view.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force. If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
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