Lit Philosophical question/discussion the force and the universe

Yeah, except that's not how it works. The Force cannot be proven to exist in the Star Wars universe and people don't act like it's a proven fact. They act like it's a religion. You can prove an energy field the midiclorians draw from exists but not "The Force." Which is very much a religious concept. Also, people have been scientifically analyzing miracles in RL for centuries. It's not a new concept. People can and do dismiss that evidence just like they dismiss Vader as a wizard.

This isn't me trying to get into an RL debate but talking about Star Wars and the GFFA. It's very much a religion people take seriously only when they're believers, not as a textbook fact.

I think that makes the Force more relevant in the GFFA and more interesting as a concept to study.

 

Yes, but it does exist in SW. You could have it demonstrated to you and, hypothetically, it could be proven as a scientific fact (unless you are doubting that the Force does exist in-universe). The fact that people don't believe it is real is besides the point, because we know they are wrong. It can be proven beyond needing to rely upon faith and it does exist. If you can prove the energy field exists and you can demonstrate that's what gives people powers then you have proven the Force, whether or not you assign a spiritual nature to the Force is irrelevant.

In the real world people rely upon faith exclusively.

 

A lot of religious people actually believe the exact same thing as point 1# and don't believe in 2#. The statement of people relying on faith alone is actually an American interpretation of religion which isn't true for all sects of Christianity let alone religion.

"Faith" *finger quotes* disregards miracles.

But we're wandering off the Force.

Didn't mean to get us on a tangent.

 

Given there is no evidence of a monotheistic God they are, by definition, relying upon faith. Granted not all 'religions' rely upon 'faith' if you dilute it enough to create pantheism, but then the question becomes is it even a religion at that point.

Well I did provide an on-topic response to one of your posts you could follow on with

 

Eh, that actually opens up the question of the Jedi way as a religion given they do (more so than can be scientifically proven) know for a fact their God is real then. If you think a belief in the supernatural, which by your argument the Jedi don't actually believe, is required then they might just be followers of a philosophy like chivalry or bushido.

See? I'm course correcting back on topic. My apologies if I went too far off.



Of course, in real life, there are Eastern religions that do not in any way shape or form require the supernatural. Atheist variations of Buddhists, Daoists, and Hindu who still self-identify as such. In Revenge of the Sith's novelization, Yoda believes in the Force certainly but doesn't believe in an afterlife. He believes "becoming one with the Force" is a cessation of existence as an individual and you might as well say a body becomes one with the Earth.

I always found that interesting as it called into question whether Lucas thought Obi-Wan and other spirits were the ONLY immortals in the Force or if Yoda was just wrong.

I actually like the idea Zahn was wrong and Obi-Wan will be there at the end of the universe and exists as a equivalent to a god now or Buddha (as a title of rank rather than the person). He's not going to "fade away" because he is eternal.

 

Well I don't really think the Jedi are a religious order upon the fundamental aspects. They don't believe in anything not provable and therefore don't believe in anything 'supernatural' per se. I like the idea that the Jedi have different hypothesises about how the Force works and those aspects that aren't demonstrable and that all these ideas are accepted as unprovable possibilities - almost like spiritual scientists speculating on the nature of existence. They would also acknowledge that the morality that they apply to the Force is inherent and present in all intelligent beings.

 

I understand that point but disagree strongly and think they should really continue to make the Jedi more religious than less. I think they went in a good direction with the Church of the Force (which is a TERRIBLE name--why not Temple of the Force or Children of the Force) and people like Chirrut.

It's a conversation which loses a lot of power when Luke asks Han, "You don't believe in the Force do you?"

And it's not Han talking about God but, say, Dark Matter.

 

I like the idea of non-Jedi having a 'religious' understanding of the Force. After all the Force is meant to be the 'base' of all religions (i.e. all religions are metaphors of our perception of a universal 'Force') But I don't think one based around the Jedi should be dogmatic or monotheistic, but rather something like secular Buddhism. I don't think the Jedi would agree that having people follow too dogmatically, given the way that always turns out in the real-world. They would simply tell people to be good and they are doing the 'will of the Force'.

I know what you mean but if 'God' were discovered he would be scientifically described as some type of 'Dark Matter'.

 

I'd think both the Jedi and Sith qualify as religions. Some of the other force sects might not but they do.

 

Well, it's monotheistic in the concept that "God" is everyone and everything but that's a more Hindu belief and the question of whether there's a will of the Force is debatable in universe but I suspect there is (if for no other reason than the writers exist). Dogma is a flaw of the Jedi Order as we've seen from the Prequels in canon and plenty of previous fundamentalist Jedi like the Covenant.

This isn't ideal but you could very much say both Buddha and Jesus would point out that wasn't ideal in their religions either.

Interestingly, the Jedi being a non-evangelical religion which, nevertheless, has severe issues with deviations with doctrine would reflect quite a few real life faiths. They have no interest in converting the galaxy to their faith but do their best to stamp out deviations.

 

Disregarding a few sources (so don't bother with contradictions) because I want to, but is the Force even universal?

Kenobi describes it as binding the galaxy together, not the universe. But that's probably just George mixing up his terms. Still, I like to think of it as something peculiar to the GFFA.

 

I find that greatly diminishes the Force as a mystical concept.

But YMMV.

Then again, I do see it as the "God" of the universe and there isn't one aside from the Force.

In Legends, we know it extended at least to the Yuuzhan Vong galaxy.

 

They wouldn't and they shouldn't. Religions are intended to describe the Divine, the transcendent and its relationship to the material world. The actions of people affiliated with and practicing it's beliefs are irrelevant. To steal a paragraph from one professor I met:

To begin with, let's recall a dictum so old it's in Latin: abusus non tollit usum - the abuse does not take away the use. The fact that Christianity produced the Inquisition, Islam produced Al Qaeda and atheism produced Stalin are as relevant as the fact that chemistry produces nerve gas, mathematics and physics steer artillery shells, and the printing press can produce hate literature....Whether religion or unbelief have been sources of good or evil are absolutely irrelevant to anything. The only issue of any significance is whether a position is true.

Many of the Jedi's beliefs are objectively true within the setting. You said as much in an earlier post.

To use a Star Wars example, Galen Erso's research has the potential to supply cheap power to thousands of impoverished planets. Because said research resulted in the Death Stars and Starkiller Base should it be destroyed and further scientists prevented from pursuing it on the pain of death?

 

Mind you, had Galen known what his research would give, he would have become a farmer.

Oh wait.

 

And a whole lot of good it did him. Krennic still found him and destroyed his family. The Death Star was still completed and he even admits that the Krennic's team could have finished the Death Star without him.

 

Two points:

1. The Jedi would, no doubt, acknowledge that in order to 'follow' the Force one does not need to believe in it or follow any dogmatic holy text, etc. Therefore there is no need for a 'religion' but rather just a 'philosophy of life'. Unlike monotheistic religions the Force doesn't require you to pray to it, to follow some set of odd rules or wear certain clothes - all you need to do is be good and, if you want to hone your connection to it, follow some basic Buddhist-like principles. That's the point of the Force - it's the basis off all religion. The bedrock from which religion spring. As George put it, the Force is the elephant in the room, and religions are just describing, through metaphor, different parts of the elephant.

2. I'm not sure I agree that atheism created Stalin, but that's beside the point.

They don't 'convert' people because there is nothing to convert people too. What you are describing a 'religion' is really two parts:

1. The Force. An objectively true energy field.
2. The morality of the Force (i.e. light and dark), which are broad enough to be the morality that is inherent in all human beings.

They don't require special prayers, special clothes, sacrifices or any holy rules. If someone acknowledges the reality of the Force and they are being a good person then they are 'converted'. That's the point of the Force - it's not a religion, in universe, that requires faith. It's just an energy field with the basis of morality plugged into it. That's why every religion recognises itself in the Force.

You also haven't explained why you think the Force is pantheistic and not panentheistic

 

Mostly because I think the Force is the Universe.

Not PERVADES the universe.

Also, all the things you're describing are things the Jedi do. They wear special clothes, they meditate/pray, they have special rules, and they have a code of ethics based on the Light and Dark which they try to apply to all Force users.

 

Is there evidence for this? Genuinely wondering, as I've only seen evidence of panentheism.

They wear clothes that are similar, yes. But that seems to be more of a cultural thing (like a uniform), rather than something the Force requires. I'm sure they could wear whatever they want.

They meditate, which can be entirely secular and scientific. There is no evidence they pray.

They have a basic morality which can vary widely. There is no evidence that they have moral rules that are any stricter than those we as a society have (i.e. a Jedi could believe abortion is wrong and another that it isn't), or that the light and dark (positive and negative) can't be universally applied. The rules they do have are largely seen as their fall into dogmatism (i.e. the anti-marriage rule) while the other rules are general bi-laws that any corporation has (i.e. address Masters a certain way, etc). There is no evidence that if someone gets married that aren't following the Force, or if they don't wear the Jedi robes they aren't following the Force. Monotheisms mandate these rules or your 'out'. The Jedi have rules because they are an organisation - if you aren't a member of NASA and don't follow their bi-laws it doesn't mean that you don't believe in their general principles. You can follow Judaism without being a Rabbi.

 

"Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter."

Uhm, DP, I think you actually have quite a few mistakes about how monotheistic religions work or at least are associating specific rules with all of them.

 

So if the force is at least semi sapient is it benovelent or malovelent? It seems to cause the Skywalker clan a lot of grief.

 

I think the question is less whether the Force is sapient than whether the Dark Side also has a will.

"Destiny" exists in Star Wars.

It's been hinted a lot of the weird storytelling coincidences in Star Wars are the work of the Force, certainly Qui Gon believed it was highly unlikely a Jedi Knight would find Anakin, but is it the Light or The Force or The Dark or is there a difference?

Also, are Father/Son/Daughter personifications of the Force or spirits of Pre-Jedi who have become like Obi-Wan or something else? Are they, in effect, gods? Is Obi-Wan and the other Force Ghosts?

These questions are unanswered but I'm inclined to go with this:

* The Force is sapient but in a way which is not personified. It is an alien inscrutable entity far removed from human life forms. You might as well argue gravity is the Will of the Force.

Once Obi-Wan becomes a Force Ghost, he's not talking to God. He's arguably closer to it than anyone else in the universe but his knowledge is not really any greater than it was before.

* The Dark Side of the Force does not have a will: It is Chaos and Destruction but it is not sentient. The closest thing to a will is the spirits of dead Dark Siders trapped in Chaos like Darth Bane.

(I think Yoda actually met Darth Bane's ghost but he doesn't believe it because he doesn't believe in an afterlife--never did I imagine Yoda would be a Flat Earth Atheist or Arbitrary Skeptic)

* The Light Side of the Force doesn't have a will either: Yes, I'm basically arguing the Force is Neutral.

Ascended Jedi and other Light Side Force users can influence the universe, though, arguably much better than Sith.

* The Force is naturally Balanced but sentience gave birth to the Light Side and the Dark SIde: Speaking as a theist in real life, I don't think God necessarily ever existed in Star Wars before evolution brought sentient life to the universe.

The Force prior to sentience was "Balance" and only became capable of Good because of the creation of Evil. This is straight ripped from The Unifying Force, though.

The NJO novel, not the concept.

* The Jedi are not flawless in their understanding of the Force: The Jedi associate the Light Side of the Force with the Will of the Force as well as Balance, which is confusing two different aspects of the universe. The Father and the Daughter. They also fail to realize the Son plays a role in the universe as well.

If I were to think of a devastating truth to reveal to Luke Skywalker, it would be the fact the Force doesn't play sides. It loves the Light but also the Dark.

 

He would have developed a crop of mass destruction.

 

1. Charlemagne19 already pointed out that all the things you're describing are things the Jedi do. They wear special clothes, they meditate/pray, they have special rules, and they have a code of ethics based on the Light and Dark which they try to apply to all Force users. Your response to this

is completely odd considering liturgical vestments and clerical clothing are uniforms. And I doubt they can wear just whatever they want considering the only Jedi we ever see in the films not wearing Jedi robes at any given point is Luke in the OT. By the ST he has made the switch to the traditional robes. Your observation that mediation can be a secular thing is also odd because secular mediation, like a good many secular things, is a religious rite that has been stripped of its theological meaning. In the wider context of the Jedi Order it is clearly not a secular activity.


2. Oh please, atheism was definitely a major driving force for Stalin's actions and integral to the philosophical framework of Marxist-Leninism. It is was evident in several of their actions from destroying most of the churches in the Soviet Union to founding societies like the League of Militant Atheists. The examples of Soviet propaganda espousing atheism are legion.

3. I agree with Charlemagne19 about how you have an odd view of how monotheistic religions work and are are associating specific rules with all of them.

 

In Stalin's case, he re-created the Orthodox Church and dialed down persecutions of religion in the Soviet Union (about the only decent thing he did) on the purely cynical grounds of trying to drum up support against the Nazis.

Atheist regimes which have murdered and tortured in the name of ideology are a very common thing in the 20th century (and still in the 21st) with proof mankind doesn't require any supernatural belief to make ideologies they will kill or destroy for. I remember pointing this out on the Doctor Who forums to this one fellow who had insisted organized religion (really religion of any kind) was responsible for all the evils of society and he ended up getting really really angry at the fact it was every bit if not more brutal.

I think Lucas was invoking the Soviet anti-religion ideal in ANH and STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE brought this overlooked element back with the empire's treatment of Jedi as well as other religious communities. The Empire is anti-religious as a contrast to the more accepting Rebellion (which at least some of its members are religious aside from the Jedi as Jan Dodonna's blessing "May the Force be with you" shows). Mind you, neither side seems to make it an ideological requirement as Lost Stars has Force-believer and a atheist on the opposite sides they're usually on.

I do note the Prequel Jedi are meant to be dogmatic, high bound, too politically involved, and too steeped in meaningless ritual to deal with the Sith. This is a contrast to Luke who is a much more down to Earth, spiritually minded, and Earthbound Jedi like Qui Gon. It's a very common story of religious reform with parallels in Jesus, Saint Fransis, Buddha, and other figures.

So, DarthPhilosopher is correct that the Jedi should not be judgmental or rule bound but the Prequel Jedi most certainly are. I do note, however, the only thing required for a monotheistic religion is to profess a belief in One God and virtually every kind of framework from hippie communes who accept all other gods are part of one god to rigid rules controlling ones have existed (and the latter have existed for polytheist societies too).

 

Maybe he's suggesting that the 'crude matter' isn't the Force? Everything we know suggests this - it's formed from life and it's described in relation to things instead of things themselves. Furthermore, if life creates it, and we accept there was a universe before life, there must be a period before the Force, ergo the Force isn't matter or the universe, but an energy field within it.

I'm pointing out things that are unique to monotheistic and polytheistic religions, rather than, say, nontheistic religions like Buddhism. I'm suggesting that the Force is panentheistic and, because it is provable, is not strictly religious per se (at least in the sense it doesn't require faith and that it doesn't require and quirky stuff from it's followers, as in common in organised monotheism and polytheism). The Force is comparable to Buddhism in that it doesn't require faith in the unprovable supernatural.

I'm not talking about clerical clothing, which are of course uniforms. Christianity has no such requirement for special garments (well at least in the broadly modern context). I'm thinking more along the lines of Sikh clothing and grooming requirements, etc.

Apart from the variety of robes seen in the films, Vos and Ahsoka both wear distinctive clothes. Clearly it's not a religious requirement, and merely a preferred option for the organisation.

How is the fact that mediation originated religiously even relevant? It is also a scientific and secular activity. And the Jedi utilise it for scientifically proven methods (i.e. communicating with an energy field that is provably true) making it secular as it doesn't require faith.

This is off-topic, but I'll address it. How can you look at the way which Stalin conducted his totalitarian regime and not see the obvious reality that it was a religious system, persecuting any established religion in place of the new one. He, like Mao, already had a population that was highly religious, and simply moved to make himself the supernatural being. Atheism is the belief in no-Gods or supernatural intervention in the world. You can't look at Stalinist Russia, Maoist China or North Korea and say "those are non-religious societies". Their entire system is based around the worship of the leader as a supernatural being. Furthermore it's a long bow to draw to suggest that atheism is the motivating factor in Stalin's actions. Atheism is simply an un-belief in religions. Atheism is not the same as being anti-religion.

I think you're assigning too much motivation to someones unbelief in something rather than devotion to an ideology which, often, can be held separately to their irreligiousness.

I believe the point being made was that arrogance in dismissing religion can sometimes be misguided. The Empire are anti-religious (however are ultimately are in lock step to two 'religious' extremists, so it's purely for cynical reasons), however I don't think that means the battle is between the religious and the anti-religious. It's a battle between secularism and liberalism, and authoritarianism and tyranny. The rebellion is probably full of the non-religious who simply don't believe in persecuting people.