Philosophy of the Jedi and Sith

Hello all

I had a look around but there doesn't seem to be a thread discussing the philosophies of the two major force sensitive groups, the Jedi and Sith.

For me, this is one of the most interesting things about the entire Star Wars saga so I was wondering if anyone would like to join me in a ramble about the beliefs and opinions of these most bitter enemies. To be more specific, how does each faction view the force? How do we as fans interpret the relationship between master and apprentice for either group? Basically, what is it about the way each side thinks that is different from the other?

Ok, after re-reading what I just typed, it sound quite basic and dull but I hope that we can explore some ideas together and make it more lively.

To (hopefully) get the ball rolling, I'd like to hear your opinions on what you think the dark side is and how the sith draw power from it. For example, in ROTS right after Mace Windu's death, it seems to me that Sidious relaxes and exhales in what looks like total bliss and physical pleasure. Almost as if the taking of life fueled his power, making him bask in the power of the dark side like a sexual event. After this, during Anakin's "initiation", Sidious talks as if the will of the dark side of the force was flowing unchecked through him, as if he was just a conduit.

That is only how I interpretted it, what are your views?

 

I used to believe that the Sith only used the Force as a tool, something to be utilized to accomplish a selfish goal. But after ROTS, I think that the Sith do tend to "worship" the Force in a sense, or at least are in awe of it, as Sidious tells Vader to commit murder because "only then will you be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme". In other words, the Dark Side of the Force is something to be bathed in, something to appease, almost sacrificing others in it's name, in order for that evil strength to flow through one's self. Sounds kind of weird, I know.

 

Thanks for replying Sith_Rising! What you say doesn't sound weird at all. I shared your opinion about the sith and the force until ROTS turned that idea on it's head.

Sidious' qoute you mentioned does indeed seem to imply that the dark side grants more power to someone who "fuels" it by commiting evil acts. To me, this was a fascinating revelation, as it could potentially alter the perceptions of the person who is doing the evil deeds.

Explaining it is hard. What I mean is, Sidious says to Vader "do what must be done... Do not hessitate, show no mercy". This sounds pretty cold and un-feeling, however, if you add the theory that you gain more power by commiting such an act, it could be seen by Vader that there is a deffinate benefit, that the end justifies the means.

"Twisted by the dark side" indeed!

 

I think the book Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter summed up the key difference very, very well:

'The Jedi thought the Force was an end unto itself; the Sith knew it was a means to an end."

The Jedi serve the Force (at least, they think they do ) and the Sith make the Force serve themselves.

 

That's a great qoute, DarthBoba! I can't help but feel it is a little shallow having seen ROTS, though. It seems to me that while the jedi might "serve the force", the sith have a higher regard for it than that qoute seems to suggest. It lacks that sithy passion, so to speak.

 

That's all the Sith are, when you get down to it. Look at Palpatine when Luke tells him to buzz off in ROTJ; he acts like a petulant child with superpowers.

The Sith have one focus: Power. All the other stuff is just an act to keep people from realizing that they're honorless cowards at hearts, and more importantly, to keep themselves from realizing it.

 

I think you're right that power is the focus of a sith. However, I think an important distinction lies in how that power is viewed. To me, it doesn't appear that the sith view power in such a detatched way, rather that they see it as something to be worshipped, as Sith_Rising put it.

I can't help but think that everything the sith do has to be done with a passion. This leads me to think that maybe there is something about the dark side that makes you crave that power. Is it addictive? Is the physical pleasure that Sidious seemed to display after killing Mace something that makes it addictive?

 

It certainly seems to be, and this may relate to why seemingly otherwise noble characters are warned against it.

 

What I think on Jedi Philosophy is, the Jedi view the Force as having a "will." They seek to follow it, to do whatever it "wants." They seek to avoid the influence of the Dark Side by avoiding negative emotions (or at least feeding them.) The Jedi believe in serving others, and don't believe they are better then others because they are Force-Sensitive.

The Sith Philosophy is built on the premise of gaining and keeping power. The Sith wish to dominate and control, and they will use the Force. They believe they are better then non-Force-Sensitives, and view them as lesser beings. They act on their passons, and will use their emotions to fuel their powers. The Sith thrive on the Dark Side, and are even consumed to such an extent that they will undergo physical changes- a deeper and more gravelly voice, yellow eyes (though not in all species) and some abnormal pigmentation in places (or lack thereof.)

The Sith to me are in some ways closer to raw nature then the Jedi are. If you have ever watched a nature show and seen a lion or wolf catch and kill an antelope or deer and then begin to consume it, you will know what I am implying. The Sith are like that. They are cold, cruel and unfeeling like nature is. They will fight amongst each other like animals, and usually the weaker member(s) is outcast or killed. They have a thin veneer of civility that allows them to at least function in groups, until that animal nature is aroused. And their Philosophy is built on that.

 

Eh, IDK. Animals kill other animals because they need to: They'll starve to death if they don't.

Sith have no innate, natural need to gather power to themselves; they do it because they can, not because they have to.

 

I like your summary on Jedi philosphy and I agree with it. Somethin puzzles me though: why would Sidious draw a comparrison between the Sith and Jedi to Anakin at the opera?

Are they cold, cruel and unfeeling? When I watch the last few scenes in ROTS when Sidious finds a barely alive Vadeer, I'm sure I can detect a note of positive emotion in his voice: "There he is, look he's still alive" (or something like that) the way it's said is very compassionate. Plus, Sidious kneels down in the ash next to Vader and gently touches his head. It's very subtle, but I don't think it's anthything other than Sidious expressing his care for Vader.

So I'd go as far as to say that the Sith are far from being the emotionless evil I once thought they were, rather they are an extremely emotional lot.

As an EU note, there is a great line in 'Darth Bane: Path of Destruction' when Bane is speaking to Githany and says something like: "when you kill me, I hope you care enough about me to do it yourself". I find this to be a very clever sentence that seems to hit close to the mark on the twisted Sith philosophy about love.

 

I think Sidious got it right in ROTS:

Breaking that sentence down, both sides are willing to use the power of the Force to achieve their own ends. What matters is their methodology. The Jedi seek to understand both themselves, the galaxy, and the will to such a degree that they can use their power responsibly and correctly. The Sith, on the other hand, believe that devoting oneself to the raw power of the Force will make them gods among mortals, through which they will gain the wisdom and foresight of divine beings and so govern the galaxy properly. It's all about whether you wish to guide the universe towards progress, treating all beings as instrinsically necessary to the will of the Force, or whether you want to control the universe directly, and use all creatures as instruments for your own purposes as a ruler.

 

MasterKenobi1138 that's a very good way of explaining the different philosophies. It's also a very good way of explaining Sidious' talk with Anakin in the opera theatre: "the Jedi and Sith are simillar in nearly every way..."

The more I think on the similarities, the more I feel I understand why evil is seen as just a point of view.

 

..By the dudes who're morally comfortable with murdering children.

 

"Then you are lost!"

 

The thing about 'certain point of view' as I see it is that nobody ever says in any of the films that it actually means everyone is right; it's that everyone views themselves as right.


Ahem...going to digress abit.

There's two really controversial phrases by Obi-Wan from the saga; one is this, and the other is that 'Only a Sith would deal in absolutes.' As only a moron (which people who graduate from USC with a film degree obviously aren't ) would think that Obi-Wan's next statement isn't an absolute statement, I think George is saying something here:

Everyone in all six films, with the exception of maybe Jar-Jar, has at least a few absolute statements that they refuse to budge from. Some are clearly designed to be sympathetic, such as Luke's beseechings of Vader and his utter refusal to turn to the Dark Side. Others are not, such as Palpatine's statements about how Luke is 'mistaken about a great many things'.

The OT is clearly defined in terms of absolutes from the opening crawl of ANH: We are told in no uncertain terms that the Imperials are the bad guys, and the Rebels are the good guys. This sets up the entire storyline for the next three films, and is never wavered from. The Empire remains the bad side, and the Rebellion remains the good side.

We never find out that Leia is actually a Sith in disguise or that Luke murdered a band of Tusken Raiders, or that Han eats puppies for breakfast. Their actions are presented in the best possible light, for a reason: It's that the Rebellion's set of absolutes are the ones that turn out to be right in this particular confrontation. The Rebellion respects personal freedom, the Empire does not, the Rebellion is never shown to blatantly murder worlds full of civilians, and so on and so forth.

"Only a Sith would deal in absolutes."

"You're going to find a great many of the truths that we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Yes, truth depends on your point of view, but that's why people have developed morality. It's an overarching judgement system that tells you if your truth is actually right or wrong in relation to other people. Sure, you might believe that destroying planets in response to a grass-roots guerrilla movement is OK, but you have to consider that without your own prior actions, the guerrillas would not exist.

George is saying that absolutes do indeed govern interpersonal relations, and that our own personal truths don't apply to everyone else. Hence, we have conflicts. It's sadly unavoidable, except through adapting your views, or vice-versa.

Luke is a great example of George's belief in this. Even when he knows that one of the most evil men in the galaxy is his father and that he's taken up a belief system completely antithetical to his father's, he recognizes that they do not have to be enemies. He rises above the absolutist, reactionary instincts of his teachers who are convinced that Luke will end up having to kill his father and the Emperor, and winds up successfully turning the most evil force the galaxy has ever known back upon itself by refusing to believe in the concept that the only options are either killing his father or joining him. He finds a path of compromise and nuetrality, via refusing to either fight Vader or join him, and ultimately convinces Vader that they need not be enemies, either.

That, IMO, is what George is telling us: We don't have to be enemies because our views differ.

 

All right, I'd better try and justify my statement. You're right to poke fun, I didn't explain myself properly

What I meant was that for a Sith, committing these evil acts is a means to an end. Whatever goal a Sith may set him/herself, they'd need to gain power to achieve that goal. Because it's clear that the only way to become powerful within the dark side is to do these bad things, the Sith would have to do them in order to get what they want.

This is most visible in Vader's desire to save Padme. He has his goal and know's that the only way to do it is to do the worst possible crime. Only then will he succeed. We can tell that he's not happy for doing these things because he cries after killing the seperatist leaders. However, it's too late for him because the dark side has twisted him, made him believe that doing these terrible things is the only way.

So, evil is a point of view in two ways: Firstly from the perspective of the the person doing these acts and what their goals are. Anakin's goal wasn't an evil goal, he only wanted to save the one he loves.

Secondly from the perspective of history. The goal of the Jedi and Sith is galactic peace. The difference lies in what each would do with it when they have it. Which is an interesting thing in itself: With the Jedi in charge, it could be argued peace would never be perfect because of the amount of freedom given to the galactic citizens. Such freedom over a period of time inevitably leads to groups who think differently and want to run things themselves. With the Sith in charge, peace would never be perfect because over time people would revolt.

DarthBoba, your last is a very good post, thought provoking and truthful. I'd like to clarify my own opinion just to be sure no one thinks me a monster. Within this thread, I'm mainly looking at the belief systems of two groups of force sensitives and their philosophies about the force. As ROTS made me re-think my convictions on what the Sith are and how the dark side works in a way that seems completely different from the light side, I find it useful to examine the opposing points of view. I do not condone or believe that the Sith are right, I just find it interesting to explore why they think they are right.

I promise you, I'm not a bad person

 

What an interesting thread and what an interesting discussion is going on here!

Well, I would like to add that there is also another great difference between the sith & the jedi.

The jedi loose themselves easily in the force and become one with it. A sith has a urge and crave for power, as other people already said clearly in this thread.

The point is: a jedi never is alone this way. He knows that there is a conection with all beings through the living force and he is part of that gigantic spiderweb.

A sith is a loner... due to his own choice. But this nagging emptiness inside can not easily be filled. I think that most sith, especially Palpatine & Vader, fear that loneliness...

 

Verg good point AzureAngel2. I imagine that with that difference in mind, it would have a profound effect on the philosphies of both groups.

I suppose this is evidenced in Yoda's chat with Anakin: "Let go of all you fear to lose"...

I especially like your last thought "this nagging emptiness inside can not easily be filled. I think that most sith, especially Palpatine & Vader, fear that loneliness..." It makes me wonder if that is part of the vicious circle of the dark side: By going down the dark path, a Sith will feel that loss within him. They start to fear that emptiness and that in turn fuels the dark side even more.

 

I totally agree on that, fox.

The jedi have a different way of dealing with loss. Look at all the CW comics that were out long before the new computer animated movie. Yes, the moan for the fallen. But they also know that beloved ones and comrades become one with the force. This way they are never alone and can stay in touch with them. Sometimes they even can get revisited by force ghosts...

Of course there are also the force ghosts of mighty sith lords. But their existence has a very egoistic reason. I think they can NOT let go of the power they once craved for and just stay on to poison others.

The jedi way is also about sharing and NOT possessing something. This is another difference that I can clearly see between the two groups of force users.

 

I'm glad you brought up the subject of force ghosts, Azure, as they are an integral part of the SW saga and so have a major role in the philosophy of both aspects of the force.

We know that the Jedi can achieve immortality through the force by selflesness and compassion, which I think you're right in saying is why they have a more relaxed attitude to death than the Sith may have.

There are also examples of Sith spirits in the EU that seem to have less freedom than Jedi spirits. A good example of this is Ajuntar Pall in the game KOTOR: Over time, this Sith Lord had lost his grip on reality.
Why is this? What are the other differences between the two types of force ghost?

 

Another differance between the two kinds is that I have heard that Sith Ghosts can eventually go mad, but Jedi Ghosts can't.

 

My take is that the Sith Ghosts are so obsessed with avoiding death that the fact that they are eternally on the edge of fading away forever, leads them to eventually break down. Jedi ghosts on the other hand will simply accept what happens whether they live forever(Lucas' version of them) or eventually willingly fade away(EU version.)

 

Random thought on the topic:

I find Obi Wan's line in ROTS to be ironic since it is the Jedi that believe in moral absolutes. The Sith are more about moral relativity.

The disadvantage of moral relativity is that there are some people (the minority) that actually need a set code to tell them what to do.

 

George Lucas' take on force ghosts seems to suggest that the Sith can't achieve immortality through the force at all. Because of what we know of force ghosts from the EU, I like your theory Master_Starwalker.

I like what you're saying EmaraldBlade, but I'm not sure if I understand completely. Could you go into a bit more detail?