Speculation Plagueis; Witches of Dathomir; Nightsisters

What would you guys think if the new series centered around Darth Plagueis, the Nightsisters and Vong not attempting to create an Empire or banding together with political goals but forming a dark alliance with the goal to change the philosophical mindframe and lifestyle of the Galaxy to a more organic darksided warrior culture removed from dependence on technology and removed from the traditional moral or 'civilized' existence? An attempt to reshape the galaxy with an eye on a sort of anti-technological nihilism framed in the experience Darth Plagueis had in death when he became one with the darkside of the force. A new threat, an existential threat not concerned with power for the sake of power but having the goal to transform reality itself.

One thing Lucas said about his treatments for the new series is this:

Today's reality, in the real world, is at the same sort of precipice. Western civilization has been afflicted with a sort of post modern benign nihilism and questions concerning our social evolution side by side with technology are at the forefront. The lines between good and evil have also been blurred over the last few decades and with these themes I think we could see a lot of potential in the conflict between dark and light forces, especially if the dark forces have some actual validity in their positions. It would set the stage for the Jedi and other 'good guys' to have serious questions concerning the nature of good and evil which opens the door for a more nuanced view in tune with our current reality.

I don't necessarily think we specifically need the Plagueis/Nightsister/Vong combo but think a shift from the political to philosophical questions is key for the new films to hold any depth. Really exploring the conflict between good and evil outside of the pro wresting characterizations would be refreshing. What sort of philosophical themes would you like to see explored in the new films and why?

 

You bring up some interesting ideas.

What I see is a void. A black vacuum where the Empire once was. I also see lots of different factions vying to fill the void, vying for control and power. Where the philosophical differences will lie is in what stakes the Rebel Alliance is willing to risk, what tactics and depths of ruthlessness they are willing to adopt in order to bring about a New Republic. I've been saying this all along, I see Black Sun (or similar group), the Hutts to some extent through underworld gangs, Mandalorians and Imperial remnants all fighting a Battle Royale for the galaxy.

 

Well... using just a few bits of the EU you already have a number of competing powers possible... plus all those small 'rising powers' like the Mandalorians and so forth.

EDIT...

Major Powers:
1. Galactic Federation of Free Alliances or New Republic (Preferably New Republic)
2. Imperial Remnant
3. Hutts

Minor or Rising Powers:
1. Mandalorians
2. The Chiss and/or Empire of the Hand
3. Hapan Consortium

 

The ideas you empart for discussion are rather interesting, but if your focus is on the EU, I'll lament and direct you here:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/official-thread-episode-vii-and-the-expanded-universe.50007053/

If you are so inclined to restate your hypothesis based on the evidence as seen in the films, I'll be the first to take up the debate. In short, I agree with elements of your conclusion, but disagree with the method and device of your experiment. If you see fit to expand and elaborate, I'll look forward to a review and reply.

 

I think getting out of the power for the sake of power dynamic might be a good thing. Lucas original series had some hidden depth in it, obviously inspired by eastern religion/philosophy but he was also warning against authoritarianism while holding up the American system of representative democracy as the best system. There was a strong political aspect to the films which painted the bad guys as power hungry for the sake of power, he all but completely left out any sort of in depth analysis of the bad guys motivations. I think it might be a mistake to repeat the themes of the first two series, a sort of generic bad guy population fighting to politically and economically control the galaxy. It would still be entertaining but at what point will they be making the same films over and over?

 

The details concerning Vong/Mandalorians/Witches don't so much matter although I'd like to see Sith, I think the crux of what I'm trying to say is how can the conflict between good/evil in the films progress past simplistic form into a more complex/nuanced story line that can relate to today's real world? Would blurring the lines between good and evil be desirable for you or would you like to see more moral absolutism? I'd like to see an escape from the traditional "heel"/ "face" dynamics. What sort of modern issues humanity faces be addressed in the new films as well? Focusing on philosophical issues should all done subtly of course, it's possible to make a deep philosophical film without being too intellectual or complex to speak to the average movie goer (who just wants to be entertained). Great films always have different layers of meaning and if done well can satisfy the crowd.

 

Plagues is dead. Sideous killed him. And I don't want any EU stuff. I want all new, FRESH ideas for a NEW trilogy. Not recycled stuff from books that aren't even that interesting to begin with.

 

For the story of the GFFA to continue, it must move from the abstract / black and white / good vs. evil model. That was fine for the OT, and quite clearly didn't for the PT...It's quite difficult for audiences to get all up in arms about disputes involving trade routes and such. And don't get me started on a leading man who in the midst of a romantic interlude goes off on his own to his first batch of child murders.
The ST will (should) deal with both the aftermath of the complete failure of the Old Republic, the devastation caused by the Empire, and the perceived complacency of the Jedi Order. The "Hero"'s we've been presented with are anything but. I'd appreciate that if it were presented as is.
EDIT:
In short, I think that in the past we've seen the Galaxy's impact on the individual, and we now need to see the individuals impact upon the Galaxy.

 

Thats fine although in Revenge Of The Sith they did open the door for Plagues to return . New stuff, a new point of view I agree with. What do you want to see as far as the overall feel to the film? More senate meetings and a focus on maintaining or reinstating democracy? More bad guys popping up with a sort of generic authoritarian motivation? What I'm essentially saying is I'd like to see the lines between good and evil be blurred a tad. Less focus on material political/economic motivations and more of a philosophical/ idealistic plot. Really get into the Jedi and Sith philosophies.....escape from telling the story from a moral absolutist framework. Maybe even have Luke rebuild the Jedi with different values. Of course in a post Return Of The Jedi galaxy the Huts and others would be hustling, cheating, stealing their way to riches... smugglers and such but how can the series mature and change or do most people want to stick with the same recipe?

 

I feel like I answered this already. What will the Rebel Alliance do to reinstate the Republic? What will the Jedi do to support the rulership if at all?

I disagree. The cult that was sthe Sith weren't after power for the sake of power -- they wanted to destroy the Jedi and to rule the galaxy. Check and double check. And I also feel we got all the motivations we needed when Sidious explained that there were powers some might condiser un-natural. The Jedi obviously suppressed the Sith and dark siders in general, nearly to the point of extinction.

I think you're over-complicating it. The ST doesn't need to be political at all. We got that with the PT with all Palpatine's maneuverings. All you need is a simple, central conflict -- several factions at civil war for control of the galaxy. Weave the personal, subjective story within that larger backdrop. BAM! You got a movie.

 

I'd love to see non-violence espoused by Leia, as she takes on a Ghandi role. There's a scene in the movie Ghandi where indians line up and let themselves get massacred by soldiers because they refuse to fight back. In the end, it worked. The British empire was defeated. Leia was like George Washington in the OT, but remember that Ghandi also defeated the british and didn't have to kill anyone to do it. That was a powerful moral victory. Leia came from a peaceful planet without weapons, so I could see her eventually bringing this approach to the Republic as she becomes a Jedi. I'd like to see Luke as Martin Luther King, and Leia as Ghandi as they approach issues like terrorism and ruthless warlords, torture and surveillance of citizens. "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

 

That could be interesting but I don't think they'll take that tack since, after all, she was part of the Rebel Alliance which used vionece to defeat the Empire; I think blowing up two Death Stars qualifies in spades.

I actually think she might start to take on a the role of Dictator, which would be the central question of the ST -- what will one do to achieve their goal even if it's "good intended?"

EDIT:

I could see Leia becoming Supreme Chancellor at some point after the fall of the Empire in which case the old axiom "absolute power, corrupts absolutely" would be in play.

 

That would be great as far as the Jedi philosophy. Maybe also tackle some of the realities when the 'good guys' fight 'evil'. Real world example- how America says it's 'liberating' the Middle East but at the same time tortures, kills and maims innocent people. We could see the Republic doing some of the same stuff and Jedi taking a stance against such aggressive policies. Another real world example that blurs the line between good/evil, dropping nuclear bombs on Japan in the name of peace. These real world examples show that the goo vs evil fight isn't so black and white and good films usually convey this. I'd like to see a poop storm where everyone is losing their way in the post Return of The Jedi galaxy. This seems to be whats happening in the real world. We hardly know who the good guys and bad guys are anymore. Also having the 'bad guys' not be such obvious heels would set the stage for a more complex message:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel_(professional_wrestling)

 

How did they leave the door open for Plagues to return?

 

IMO they didn't. Plaguis was a shiny luer to seduce Anakin. Nothing more.

 

Exactly. The story was told to entice Anakin, and he was stated as unable to keep his power, and killed.

Door is open? I say no.

 

We know that Plagueis could not only stop people from dying, but also bring the dead back to life. And that he "allowed" Palpatine to kill him.

 

I wouldn't say that.

 

None of this is in Revenge of the Sith, which was my point. The movie did not leave the door open. There is EU, and it is what it is, but in ROTS, no door open.

 

Him knowing how to cheat death, could have been true or it could have been a lie. If true then it wouldnt be that far fetched that he,well, can cheat death and thus manifest in the flesh in episodes 7,8 and 9.. As far as any Sith appearing in episode 7 with continuity from the previous six episodes that would be the only viable route unless of course Vader had an apprentice but that wasn't the case in the film series. We could also see no Sith contenuity from the previous episodes having a Jedi turn to the darkside in his/her own way but I'm of the opinion the Sith should have a role in the new films with a deeper look into the Sith character(s)/philosophy. Just look how Lucas squandered Darth Maul- there was so much potential to develop that character but it didn't happen. At this point I'd rather not focus on any specific character although the thread title opened up that door, what I'd like to see in general is a break with the old formula- more adult themes, better character development and a more realistic take on the nature of god and evil. Less political and more philosophical whilst addressing modern issues outside of Lucas's moral absolutism but that's why Lucas chose Disney, so they would carry on that foundation that Lucas set up which worked for the original trilogy but flopped in the prequels.

 

I think the statements in ROTS establish that he was killed. That doesnt mean they couldn't do what you are suggesting, but I think it would be weak.

Also, there is another door open for a Sith return that nobody seems to have noticed that would not ruin continuity, but nobody seems to have noticed......

 

*Grabs popcorn... anxiously awaits to hear about the other open door*