Please read: A note on EU and the OT.

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Commander Antilles, Sep 9, 2001.

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  1. jewlmc Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    LOL Jedi Murkerian!!! I think the hot place froze over..

    Anyways, I will respect(try VERY hard) EU'ers opinions, if they will just respect those of us that DON'T see EU as absolute fact.
  2. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    Gen-
    Well, I have never seen someone complain that something someone posted here belonged in FanFic. I have seen people have problems with EU/canon debates when someone asked for speculation and was told there was no speculating as there is only one definite answer.

    I actually like FanFic. I've written a couple myself. I think it is a great example of how the SW universe is so vast that there are plenty of stories to tell besides the movies. It also shows that there are more than one answer.

    "If I ask for an answer here, it better darn well be something other than fan-fic, otherwise that person will be steering me wrong."

    If you ask for a definite answer, I doubt anyone would make somthing up and lie to you. But lots of people post asking for speculation specifically, like in the example about Vader I gave earlier. But if you asked in these forums about Vader's title, and someone answered what he was called in EU "The Big D" and that was the only true answer, you'd get frustrated because you wanted an answer related to the films as the forum title suggests. That is what was happening in these boards and why this thread was created.
  3. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Sith Magician wrote:
    Bib Fortuna: "It is the purists who are at fault in most of these canon debates, not the EUers."

    SM's response: "You are so full of it it's not funny."

    Actually, I've been doing a study of EU/Canon-related threads since the beginning of this year. I haven't been able to compile all of the results, largely because of the huge volume of such threads as we get closer to AotC. However, my initial results don't look too good for movie purists.

    Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek wrote:
    "If you haven't heard this before, Sansweet's quotes mean nothing when determining the EU's canon status."
    Whoa there, soldier! :D Wasn't Sansweet the first LFL-er to apply the c-word to Star Wars? It's also Sansweet that acknowledges EU as "canon" while making it clear that EU is answerable to the movies.

    "I only 'shove the EU down peoples throats' when they bash the EU answer just because it is EU. Take a look at all of my posts and you will see that."
    True....to a point. It seems like some of the threads you're involved in go something like this:
    Topic: What happened during **** ?
    Poster A: I think ----
    Poster B: Well, I think ----
    Bib: Well ----- is what happened.
    Poster C: Isn't that EU? EU isn't canon!
    Poster D: Yeah, EU is crap!
    Bib: Well ---- is what happened. EU is canon. End of discussion.
    Poster C&D: No it isn't!
    Bib: Yes it is. Please shut up until you can prove otherwise.
    And so it goes. [face_plain]

    Basically, in order to prevent flame wars, two things have to happen:

    1)Movie Purists: Don't bash or dismiss EU only because it's EU. IF you don't like EU, fine. There's some stuff in EU that I think is pretty craptacular too. However, EU is the *Officially Recognized* continuation of the Star Wars Saga. Once you recognize that, there's no need to even bring the c-word into the discussion.

    2)Bib: You have *got to* ease up in your debate style! The more you dig in your heels, the more your opponent digs in their heels. The more your opponent digs in their heels, the more you dig in your heels, and... do you get the point? Try inserting this phrase into your posts: "According to EU..." You'd be amazed at how disarming it is.

    There are ways to get your point made without it being a shoving match. It's like the difference between sumo wrestling & aikido. Observe:

    Sith Magician wrote:
    "I've told you before, I don't want to hear chapter and verse of what Barbara Hambly or any other Mills & Boon reject thinks!
    (snip)
    Just let us discuss our own personal take on things, supply an EU answer as is your right, but leave it up to anyone to take it or leave it."

    Translation: Feel free to talk about EU as long as you don't talk about EU. :p
    See, part of the issue is that you regard at least one aspect of the EU (Hambly's work)as utter crap. That's insulting. Naturally, people who like EU, or Hambly's work in particular, are going to take issue with what you've said. That's how flame wars start.

    "How can something be canon to fans of the movies who don't read the books? Think about that."
    You're talking about that nebulous concept known as "personal canon." That's all well and fine, but understand that "personal canon" is entirely different from LFL's official continuity.

    Example: I think that Darksaber and the New Rebellion are complete poo. I tend to completely ingnore them when considering post-RotJ events. However, LFL recognizes those two books as part of continuity. [face_plain] So I'm not gonna bash somebody who compares Kueller, Brakiss, & Luke Skywalker to Palpatine, Vader, & Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    "For the last time, take your EUDF and just go on retreat will you?"
    Flaming the entirety of the EUDF now, are we? ;) That's a sure ticket to Ban-Land.

    "Has it not been made perfectly vlear, loud and audible that the way you post your 'EU answer' is annoying, persistent, and discouraging of any further speculation?"
    Oh,
  4. ecmbobafetts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 1
    Oh screw it I give up
    You EU guys win
    All i was saying this forum is for the movies or cant you read the title
    Yes the EU has its place but the topic is Movies/classic Trilogy i cant say it any clearer

    If the EU belongs in this forum tell me what movie they made

    Thats all i am saying is this is the movie forum for the OT
  5. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "There's an entire forum - Fan Fiction Stories - set up for people to make up stuff based on their own personal opinions."

    That is not what that forumn is for and you know it. That forum's for posting entire, original stories. By your logic, all speculation about anything everywhere would be in Fanfic and we'd all be sitting around regurgitating facts to each other in the other forums.
  6. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    But, Padme, then if we're not going to simply sit around and regurgitate facts, why do so many people see the EU as a threat to everything they enjoy. Why do they see it as a threat to discussions. That is, obviously you dismiss ecm's claim that "This is the movie forums, stupid" (paraphrased), and accept that there will be discussion outside of dry, regurgitated movie facts.

    We're in agreement that the "movie forums" aren't merely just to regurgitate facts about movies. So, then why is the EU looked at as "lower than opinion." ?[face_plain] Why has there ever been any problems at all?

    That's what I never got. It seems to me that it's not just the official account of things, but it is the ultimate fan opinion/speculation. And that, should at least merit it at the very least equal footing with any other valid topics which are to be discussed here.

    And then we get back to the point. If it is acceptable (and obviously it is) for everyone to essentially preface all movie-forum threads with an unspoken "I could care less what the official stance is, I want your own non-LFL fan-fic opinions on...[begin movie topic]" then why are they allowed/placed here in the movie forums at all? ?[face_plain] Seriously. I know it's fun to speculate, but if there's a large majority of people here who could care less about the offiical answers, shouldn't a "Movie Forum" be opened up under the fan-fic umbrella to allow all of this wild-crazy speculation without any interference - EU or otherwise - at all.
  7. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    "When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films."
    - Steve Sansweet

    "If you haven't heard this before, Sansweet's quotes mean nothing when determining the EU's canon status."
    - Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek

    "In 1996, Steve joined Lucasfilm Ltd. as Director of Specialty Marketing to help promote Star Wars to fans both old and new. He is currently Director of Content Management and in charge of fan relations in Lucasfilm's Marketing Department."
    - starwars.com


    :confused:
    Well, I guess we'll all have to decide for ourselves just which quote is meaningless.
  8. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    ". It seems to me that it's not just the official account of things, but it is the ultimate fan opinion/speculation."

    That is the problem exactly. Some people just don't like the EU stories for whatever reason. They also resent when someone tells them they must like it and it is undeniably the only possible outcome. SOme people are simply only interested in GL's stories and not those that others write about the same characters.

    an unspoken "I could care less what the official stance is, I want your own non-LFL fan-fic opinions on...[begin movie topic]"

    I don't think this is true at all. The assumption is that everyone who enters the Movies forums is there to talk about the Movies, alone, and whatever topics that are relevent to them. Most people here do not feel that the EU is the official answer. They feel the movies alone are the official answers and all else is speculation. Therefore, EU is an allowable form of speculation, as has been repeatedly expressed by the moderaters, but it is not the ONLY one.

    If opening a Movie forum within the EU boards would lessen the number of people who come to these boards and insist that EU is law and undeniable fact, then I am all for it. But I have a feeling that those who do that won't be content with that solution either.
  9. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Well, I guess we'll all have to decide for ourselves just which quote is meaningless.

    What I meant was, Sansweet's quote actually does not say the EU is not canon, which is why it is so laughable when purists point to Sansweet as a way to discredit the EU.
  10. LostMyself Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 1
    this canon debate dont mean nothing...
    lfl is only in for the money, not for somekind of salvation...
    everyone has their own view of canon... or somekind of ladder...

    Bid seems to rate eu high! good for him...
    some other rate it below pt! good for them


    my personal view is:
    1. the ot-movies 2. the wegrpg/ot eu 3. nr/njo eu/comics 4.fan fiction/good games. 5. ot lego

    off list: pt, new rpg, pt comics /books (except old marvel tales f jedi
  11. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Gay...
    Some things I see as completely different issues:
    "That is the problem exactly. Some people just don't like the EU stories for whatever reason."

    Issue 1. Everyone accepts that people will like different aspects of discussion. However, there is no reason why it should be acceptable for anyone to allow such non-issues hijack any threads. That is, nothing more than "I hate..." or "I think XXX is crap..." There is a problem when people are substituting their own opinions for others' such as "Lucas dislikes..." or "Lucas thinks XXX is crap..." Of course people are going to refute such obvious lies or fabrications by people.

    "...They also resent when someone tells them they must like it and it is undeniably the only possible outcome.[/i]"

    Issue 2. Alright, I can't say that this does not happen. However, if going back to what I said earlier, people cling to official forums (as opposed to fan-fic forums), then obviously they are inherently after some official answer, otherwise they'd post in the appropriate forum. Therefore, I don't think people are saying it's undeniably the only possible outcome, but that's it's the only outcome. If we accept that Lucas' movies have merits above that of mere fan-fiction, then certainly the official version of events is also above mere fan-fiction, even if it's below Lucas' own answers - which may or may not actually exist. That is, often, Lucas does not have the answers. Therefore, the next best items are those under his authority.

    "SOme people are simply only interested in GL's stories and not those that others write about the same characters."

    Issue 3. Completely different from any other issue. We can call this the Ironparrot issue. I fully accept that there may be people who accept the movies as art for the sake of being movies, and care only for those movies. However, if you're honest, then fan-fic speculation is as distasteful to such people as any EU issues would be. That is, if these Issue 3 people exist, then they fall into what Padme stated as "regurgitating facts." If they care only for the movies, then they care only for the movies - and should view the vast majority of movie forum threads as being off-topic.

    Regarding the unspoken "I could care less what the official stance is, I want your own non-LFL fan-fic opinions on...[begin movie topic]..."

    "I don't think this is true at all. The assumption is that everyone who enters the Movies forums is there to talk about the Movies, alone, and whatever topics that are relevent to them."

    I disagree. If we accept that everyone who enters is here to talk about the movies alone, then we're right back to Padme's "regurgitate facts" example I threw out. I submit that the vast majority of people are here to speculate and kick ideas about and not to dicuss what's in the movies alone. That is, IMO, the deck is stacked more towards the "topics that are relevent to them," case, of which the EU certainly is.

    "Most people here do not feel that the EU is the official answer."

    Well, I suppose people could also think that Darth Vader isn't a Sith in the OT as well and they'd be just as wrong. The fact is that the EU is the "official answer" whether one likes that or not. However, we're then back to people not caring at all what the official answer may be, which is what I suspect is the case. And there's nothing wrong with not caring about what's official or not, but I do question why it's in a forum which sort of begs for an official account as opposed to a "fan activity" account.

    It's okay that people could care less about an official answer, but then such people shouldn't by rights cry and complain that the EU-related points are off-topic, when fan-fic opinions definitely are off-topic in a movie forum. And that, I see is what the problem boils down to. There's people who want one, but not the other. And it's been that way for so long, that it is hard for the EU-minority opinions to get a point in edgewise without being flamed or the thread b
  12. ecmbobafetts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 1
    That is the dumbest thing I ve heard how can you have a movie related EU topic. EU never made a movie LOL

    I am sick of this debate I dont think any EU should be in this MOVIE FORUM.

    Put it where it belongs in another forum

  13. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    You cannot stop us from using the EU if we wish. You have no say in the matter. If someone brings in the EU, you can simply ignore it.
  14. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    ecm...
    "That is the dumbest thing I ve heard how can you have a movie related EU topic."

    Since this is the Classic Trilogy forum, a good example would be... "What is Darth Vader a Dark Lord of in the Classic Trilogy?" Obviously this is something which was never addressed in the movies. However, it most certainly belongs in a "Classic Trilogy Forum." There's literally all sorts of such topics, as we've seen in both PSA as well as OT.

    "EU never made a movie LOL"

    I take it you have no idea what a "movie" is? You seem to be using such an absurdly-narrow focused construction of the word to render it wholly inaccurate. There are EU movies and there are definitely Lucas EU movies as well. However, I hope to god this whole problem doesn't boil down to a mere semantic argument where people are ignorant of what can be considered a "movie" according to society's traditional use of the word.
  15. Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 6
    First off, you guys totally went another way on my remark about ideas. PBra is right, if we make it so no one can bring forth any ideas that aren't presented in am ovie or book in the movie forums and keel them only fan-fic what's the point of these forums? Hell, by that logic, we shouldn't even have a literature forum, because technically, its all fan fiction, they just get paid. ;) So if we move all of our discussion into fan fic, you guys have to move all of yours there as well. ;)

    There are things that aren't explained in the movies. And yes, some of those are explained in the EU. Is that the only explanation? No. I guess, that's what this whole, long, seven page thread boils down to. We just don't want the EU presented as the only answer for things. It may be presented as an answer, but but if someone chooses to ignore it, that's their right. So here's what I'm thinking as a fun little policy in here.


    Purists: If you see an EU idea presented as an answer, and you don't agree with it, politely state your disagreement. Say, "Well, that answer is from the EU, I think it happens this way instead..." Don't go off on tangents about how the EU sux, and how Zahn in a talentless hack, or how teh NJO is destroying your life. Continue on with the discussion in a normal way. The EU is just another idea to be presented for discussion.

    EUers: You may present an EU answer as an answer, but not the "right" answer. You may know everything about what what goes on in the EU, but some people have never heard of it. They may be looking for a number of different specualtions on an answer, and to present yours as the absolute, is the wrong way to do things. Also, if an Purist does start going on about how the EU sux and all that, please don't respond. Remian calm, there's no reason to get upset. Remind of him what I've posted here, or have them read it if they are new. If they don't desist, if I'm online, drop me a PM, plus I do come into this forum a lot, so I'll be around.


    But what this all boils down to, is that this EU/Canon thing in here has gone on too long, in my eyes. I think we can maybe, calm it down a bit, if people just use some common sense.
  16. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Hmmm, I thought I made it clear that purists cannot bash the EU here, or the EU fans claim EU as canon and undisputable fact?
  17. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    That's what we've been trying to say, CA.
  18. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    So why are we still discussing it?
  19. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Because many purists, namely ecmbobafetts, are still resisting.
  20. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Are you quite sure it's just the purists?
  21. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Well, it's certainly not me, Genghis, Sturm or Merk.
  22. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    I just want to point out that this:
    "The fact is that the EU is the "official answer" whether one likes that or not."
    - his1
    directly conflicts with this:
    "b. EU cannot be used as undisputed fact in a debate on the OT." - Commander Antilles

    That is why the debate hasn't ended. What CA asked to stop isn't stopping, and its because both sides aren't stopping, not just purists.
  23. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Um, no. Being the official answer and being the indisputable answer are two completely different things.
  24. halibut Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    That's just semantics, Bib, and you know it. Try following the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law
  25. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    "I take it you have no idea what a "movie" is? You seem to be using such an absurdly-narrow focused construction of the word to render it wholly inaccurate. There are EU movies and there are definitely Lucas EU movies as well. However, I hope to god this whole problem doesn't boil down to a mere semantic argument where people are ignorant of what can be considered a "movie" according to society's traditional use of the word."


    Come on, give me a break. This is why it's so hard to debate on these boards. That is a ridiculous statement. "Society's traditional use of the word" movie? Are you being serious? Or just purposely difficult? How about motion picture? Or film? You know exactly what he meant. Nobody was arguing the semantics until that farcical post was made.
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