Please read: A note on EU and the OT.

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Commander Antilles, Sep 9, 2001.

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  1. ecmbobafetts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 1
    Whatever Bib you didnt say anything that related to my topic but started with the EU that Boba fett was still alive.

    So i told u thats not the topic so you are the one to derail the topic.

    Besides you are a real pain you dont listen to anyone. Everyone is wrong and you are right, so i cant talk to you anymore because you never listen
  2. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Padme Bra...
    "His post might have been tongue in cheek but I think he really means what he's saying. Am I wrong?"

    No - you are 100% correct. I really do mean that people are hypocritical for whining about valid EU-related OT Movie threads being in the wrong place, yet don't even bat an eye at discussion about Luke Skywalker being Tarkin's son. What did I mean by all of that? What was the entire point of an exploration of ecm's CT threads - I meant exactly what you stated...
      "The point of all that is that of some of the threads could have been better placed in other forums, they're still dealing with the movies, and that's what this and the other movie forums are for. That's why they're under the title, "Movies"."
    This statement applies just as much to "EU-related OT movie threads" as it does to say "TPM-related OT movie threads," "Buffy the Vampire-related OT movie threads," and whatever other kinds of OT movie threads which "could have been better placed in other forums, but are still dealing with the movies."

    You know that. I know that. It seems rather elementary common sense to have movie threads in the movie forums, regardless of whether they're EU-based movie threads, or whatever. But, there's evidently some people out there who have no problem discussing the Phantom Menace in a classic trilogy movie forum, yet get all bent out of shape if you discuss the EU in a classic trilogy movie forum.

    I think Padme Bra and I see eye-to-eye on this perfectly. And in acknowledgement to Halibut, I think Padme Bra's statement is where I'll leave it for now (with minor editing):
      The point of all that is that [EU] threads could have been better placed in other forums, they're still dealing with the movies, and that's what this and the other movie forums are for. That's why they're under the title, 'Movies.'"
    If some people can't understand that, then obviously things are at an impasse for them. I'm glad others do. :)
  3. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    We do except that in the case of the EU, since it has its own forums (quite larger than the movies I might add), it should not need to take over all discussions in the movie forums.
  4. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    I agree. But, I also don't necessarily think the EU does take over every thread, but then I also know I don't frequent them as often as I do the EU forums.

    I'll now conform to halibut's comments to stay out of the discussion unless there's something that I really just feel the need to comment on. :)
  5. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    not to beat this dead horse further but EU does have a habit of taking over movie threads. at this point there is not much the EU has not covered. every little nook and crany, every minor character, hell characters who walk across the screen and are seen for .000045 of a second have back stories in the EU. it has become impossible to speculate at all what so ever being that there is a militant EU contingent that already has the answers as stated in some EU book or another. not only that, but they will also tell you that being that EU is licensed by LFL that must mean its true. so therefore there is no need to speculate because there is a "right" answer already. it is unnerveing. i hate to say it being that i hate censorship of any sort, but i'm starting to believe that EU should remain in it's own forum. there is no point in having a CT movie forum because the EU contradicts the movies. there are things in the SW universe that i think lucas left unfinished. i think he did this for a reason. i think that he most likely knew being the smart guy he is that part of the fun is speculation. nothing is better than leaving a movie with a bunch of "what if's" in your head. i think that it is part of the movie experience. the EU leaves no what if's at all. i feel it isrobbing movie purists of some of the fun in starwars. who the heck wants to wonder what may have happened after ROTJ, only to have some EU fan regurgatate the story of grand admiral thrawn and things like that and then insist that that is what happened and your speculation will never be right because the book about thrawn has a little LFL logo on it. bah i say...SW is for the people. keep EU in it's own forum so all the EU nazis can correct each other. i for one am sick of being corrected when i speculate.
  6. Sith Magician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1999
    star 5
    I totally agree with vw_jedi, The fun is in the speculation, so while some threads may seem they have nothing to do with the movies, but speculation of the characters actions beyond the movies.
    Some ppl don't seem to realise we want to speculate not be corrected.

    If I want to post in a forum where any specualtion at all is met with a text book answer as to what really did happen,
    I'll go become a trekkie...
  7. halibut Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    Sith Magician

    Trekkie comment - ouch! :p

    It's time for a recap

    I think this thread has reached an impass.

    1) EUers. No stating that EU is the ONLY correct solution to a theory

    2) Purists. No rejecting theories purely because they are EU

    If you agree with these statements, then post no further
    If you disagree, then post your reasons here
  8. ecmbobafetts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 1
  9. Wesmin7 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 3
    vw_jedi: It is (EU bashing/ EU'er bashing) statements like that which lead to arguments on this topic.

    Lets face it; when anyone, no matter which side they are on on any topic is told their theory is incorrect they tend to get mad about it and retaliate. When dealing with the issure of bringing up EU as valid speculation which should be given the same amount of merit as anyone elses speculation, we must all keep this in mind as to not tick the other side off. There is no justification to saying that someones books, opinions or ideas are incorrect just because your opinion differs. Unless this persons views are directly contradiced in the movies. I agree with some of the Movie purists that they need to be able to say what they think, BUT at the same time they must realize that the EU'ers are only doing the same thing as they are, they are speculating on a topic given the information that they have, this information includes the EU. If a movie purist tells them they can not do this they are denying the EU'ers the rights which they (the movie purists) so dilingatally argue about not having.
  10. Basil_Hennington Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2002
    star 4

    I have always thought that the EU takes place in an Alternate Universe; there is mmore material that may get covered in the films while the events of the published works, for me, exist as possible turn of events in a slightly different Universe.

    The New Jedi Order, to me, exists is entirely different realm from the rest of EU and I think of it, kindly, as speculative.
  11. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Bib, please don't stay that you never start "shoving EU down others throats" until they provoke you. Here, from a discussion yesterday:

    Theron: .... For me the fighters may have different hull sizes, but they don't have shields. No matter what the EU claims. I like the EU but I find some things contradicting.

    Bib: There are no contradictions in the EU at all.

    Theron: I'm talking about between the movies and EU. I find somethings not many contradicting between them.

    Bib: And there are no contradictions between the movies and EU.

    Theron: Well, that's my opinion but it's all good. I still enjoy reading and watching it.


    Bib, you were not provoked here. Theron explicitly said what his opinion was, he even claimed he liked EU. And it was him in the end who calmed the argument, whereas it would look like you were ready to escalate it.

    And in that argument, CA says:

    I agree with what Theron said. In the films, Rebel fighter shields never seemed much good, either from direct laser blasts or TIE fighter swarm attacks, yet EU tends to make you think the opposite.

    I don't see how this is provoking either. Please review that thread and tell me what provoked you, seriously. If anything, it seems that both these guys were keeping their opinions in check and being very respectful of the EU. By the way, it's the thread about Tie's and X-wings, i don't know how to link, but it's probably the discussion that prompted this forum.
  12. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Wesmin7: I think the problem is that when people quote EU, it sort of ends a debate. I mean, if a bunch or people are debating who would win a fight between Yoda and Boba-Fett and then an EU fan comes in and tells them who won in the EU universe, it doesn't really add to the debate does it? Please note, that was a really silly example but you get the point.

    And the problem is that EU is not just considered "speculation" by EU fans. For example, you will NEVER see a purist come in and say: "In my imagination, this is what happenned, so it must be correct. Everything else is wrong." However, I have seen many EU fans say: "In the EU, this is what happenned, so it must be correct. Every thing else is wrong."

    I have a suggestion for the mods. Why not allow some sort of option when you open a thread that so that EU can be included or ignored? So, if some guy wanted an answer about Salacious Crumb's home planet, he just creates a thread like normal. But if somebody wants to discuss and speculate based purely on what is on-screen, he can press a little button and at the top of his thread it will have a little note that states this.
  13. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    Thats a good idea, but I think it might be easier if the thread author puts **Speculation** in the thread title. That way there isn't any doubt as to if they are looking for a definite answe according to Movies or EU, or if they are seeking a discussion.
  14. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Alright Gay-Len!

    Wouldn't it be great if we could have somehow come up with a solution that would satisfy EU and purists? And without even addressing the issue of what's canon and what's not?

    Alas, I have a feeling it's all just a dream...

    But I think the mods could come up with something along these lines. I think typing (**speculation**) at the end of the header is a great idea. If it's in the title, EU has no merit, if it's not in the title, EU is considered *fact*. It might mean that I'd have to choke on a palpatine clone once in a while, but hey, we all gotta compromise one day.

    So I put it to everybody: Instead of just conitinuing this futile *discussion* let's try to come up with a feasible solution.
  15. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    I'm glad that some people want to end this debate, Dacks. I've gotten into it in the past, and I don't feel like it accomplished anything.

    I hope that both camps can accept this as a truce. I have debated with a number of people about this, and they never changed my mind just as I didn't change theirs. At least this way, we could avoid some clashes. If the thread title says **Speculation** or such, the author is looking for answers outside the EU realm or theories. And as some have pointed out, there are times when people just want a specific answer and not theories. I think if there is a system where the author states from the beginning that he does or doesn't want EU imput we can avoid a lot of conflict. As long as both camps respect the author's choice.

    My suggestion for **Speculation** is just a suggestion. Does anyone else have any ideas? Does one have a better idea?
  16. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    vw_jedi: It is (EU bashing/ EU'er bashing) statements like that which lead to arguments on this topic.

    my statement is based on fact. i have never once corrected someones speculation because it was based on EU, imagination, or disinformation. i believe that open forums are a place for discussion. it is the militant EU contingent that insists on raming EU down your throat that corrects people. i challenge you to find any EU bashing in my last post. there is none. it is pure fact and some opinion. no bashing what so ever. also as to me being an EU hater heres a different post of mine from earlier in this thread

    Posted: 3/14 3:58pm Subject: RE: Please read: A note on EU and the OT.
    it's kind of strange....after a few yrs of being on SW boards i have found that this is the only one where EU is even remotly considered as canon. on other boards like T'bones old board from a few years ago i was ostrasized for using any EU references...this however is not the case here. personally i'm over the debate and have'nt engaged in any EU hating in a few weeks. i say roll with it, it's all SW. i personally use EU very rarely in my posts and still will not be told my speculation is wrong because it contradicts some EU fact. it's all supposed to be in fun anyway. i mean is'nt that the reason we are fans of SW in the first place? cause it's fun? it's not worth debating and hijacking threads over...speculate all you want and use EU if it pleases you to do so.


    does that sound like an EU basher to you? i have an open mind. i am willing to consider ALL possibilities. it's certain EU'ers that insist it must have an LFL logo on it or it is not possible. i just want to speculate without being corrected all the time. my suggestion that EU be used in it's own forum is due to people insisting that EU is the difinitive answer. if that is so then there is no reason to speculate. are we here to recite answers as if this is a test on history? or is this a forum to discuss the possibilities? EU provides an answer to everything and really leaves no room for speculation, just regurgitation of written words. i don't think EU is a bad thing. i think people using it as a diffinitive reference in a movie forum is. there are certain individuals who do this on a consistant basis. that is where my gripe is. not in using EU information in your posts or being an EU fan.
  17. Wesmin7 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 3
    I agree with you partaily, what I see here is something that is wrong and I am trying to correct it, the EU can be a means to an end for some people, I've already have a Purest shove the EU down my throat to prove that I MUST be wrong. What I am trying to say is it is not the EU that is at fault but whomever is argueing, whomever they be.
  18. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    no, i totaly agree that it is not EU at fault. heck, i have read every EU book until dark tide II in the NJO series. i stopped reading at that point because it no longer entertained me. but i would never want to rob another of what they enjoy. i just want the stringent EU people to understand that when you are speculating about a science FICTION topic that anything is possible. it's all FICTION. it just amuses me that people will argue with me about the "truth" of what happened in a universe that's make believe. i no longer believe in "canon." certain people in both camps, purest and EU, have twisted the words of LFL, George Lucas and others to lend credence to their view of what is canon. i no longer concern myself with that. my concern is having fun speculating. i just don't want to be told i'm wrong for having an open mind. i want to use all possible sources and not limit myself. i don't want a ficticious history lesson. i wanna think outside the box....
  19. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Vw...
    You put out a challenge, I hope you won't mind if I accept...
    "it is the militant EU contingent that insists on raming EU down your throat that corrects people. i challenge you to find any EU bashing in my last post. there is none. it is pure fact and some opinion. no bashing what so ever."

    What do you call terming someone a "nazi?" You made a vague, general flame against EU fans who may have an overzealous role in defending their love. You equated EU fans with a group of EVIL people who committed genocide against Jews and others in WWII [face_plain] There is hardly a comparison which can be made there. As overzealous as you may think some of your fellow Star Wars fans are in defending the EU from people who would completely invalidate it, rest assured, such fans are NO NAZIS. But, that didn't stop you from making such a comparison. You said...
      "keep EU in it's own forum so all the EU nazis can correct each other. i for one am sick of being corrected when i speculate."
    That's not only a bash, it's an outright flame as well. And, in fact it is statements like that which cause any problems in the first place. [face_plain]

    (And on a smaller note, you also made an inaccurate statement which is certainly not a "fact..."

    "there is no point in having a CT movie forum because the EU contradicts the movies."

    The movies can't be contradicted. Not by the EU or other source. That is a fact.
  20. Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 6
    Next person to use the word Nazi in this thread will feel the wrath of a dying sunflower.
  21. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Genghis:

    Just because you're the only one who seems to be around at this hour, and you're an EU supporter, I'll ask you. What do you think of the idea that Gay-LenKenobi and I were discussing a few posts back?
  22. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    I dunno about Genghis, but personally I think a far easier solution would be halibut's suggestion:

    1) EUers. No stating that EU is the ONLY correct solution to a theory

    2) Purists. No rejecting theories purely because they are EU


    No need to complicate things with some high-tech option that's likely not possible.

    Simple. Human. Choice.
  23. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Dacks,
    I said where I stand on it earlier. If people want to create fan-fic speculation, then let them put it in the fan-fiction forums, where no such "SPECULATION" topic descriptors are required. And if all of the authors there get bent out of shape that people are "merely kicking around ideas" as the Fan-Fiction Forum says is acceptable, then create a "Fan-Fiction: Speculation" forum.

    Failing that then I absolutely see no reason why Jedi Merkurian's summary of halibut's instructions based on Commander Antilles' directive cannot be followed by anyone.

    It seems to be the best and easiest solution to the debate. (And besides, it's one that if it isn't followed may land you in hot water. So, people better get use to it regardless of whether they agree with it or not, I suppose. :) )
  24. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
  25. Wesmin7 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 3
    This has become a match to see which side can make the most words red and bold and capitalized and in italics. Simply we must accept the rules that the Admin's have set down for us. If thinks these rules are unfair and has evidence to back it up then by all means post here, but if this is just to be a thread where everyone quotes what everyone quoted about then this thread has truely become nothing more then a war of flashy colors and capitilzations.
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