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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Please read: A note on EU and the OT.

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Commander Antilles, Sep 9, 2001.

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  1. Sturm Antilles

    Sturm Antilles Former Manager star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    ewing - You don't have to believe what we say when we state those things. I already said that. But if it's in an official published book, I don't see how it can't be truth.

    As it is, why is your JC name based on a ship from Dark Empire? Do you enjoy the EU or hate it?
     
  2. ewingsquadron

    ewingsquadron Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2001
    Actually, my name is based on a hasbro toy that my best friend gave me back in '96.

    EDIT: I know I don't have to believe you, but you persistantly tell others that they are wrong if they *don't* believe the EU.
     
  3. Sturm Antilles

    Sturm Antilles Former Manager star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Well, if that Hasbro toy is Star Wars and was an E-wing, it began in DE. Just so you know.

    And well, people are generally wrong if they don't pick up on what the films and novels show them. But I guess I should stop pointing that out to them because they hate being wrong.
     
  4. ewingsquadron

    ewingsquadron Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2001
    >>>And well, people are generally wrong if they don't pick up on what the films and novels show them. But I guess I should stop pointing that out to them because they hate being wrong. <<<<

    Example.
     
  5. Sturm Antilles

    Sturm Antilles Former Manager star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Way too many to list. And I'm going to have to return here tomorrow and continue any debate. Tata.
     
  6. ewingsquadron

    ewingsquadron Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2001
    All right. I'll expect your answer when you return.
     
  7. AT-AT_Commander

    AT-AT_Commander Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2001
    I agree with what bib is saying but just to shut this unending argument up. I believe we should leave the OT here and The EU in the other threads. But sometimes explanitions from EU are needed in this thread. I am just tired of the same "is boba fett dead?" argument.
     
  8. Preditor24

    Preditor24 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2001
    What is EU ?
     
  9. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    EU stands for Expanded Universe, which is anything that doesn't take place on The Big Screen.

    Lets look at the rules, shall we?
    "a. For all intents and purposes, EU is not on the same level as the OT.'
    Fair enough. I think that everyone can agree that the EU answers to the movies, not visa versa.

    "b. EU cannot be used as undisputed fact in a debate on the OT."
    Again, movie sources are going to be more reliable than EU sources when having SW discussions. EU is not undisputable fact no more than barmy fanboy speculation is undisputed fact. However one gets bashed within minutes, while the other passes without comment. [face_plain] Can we make a rule that EU can't be bashed ONLY because it's EU?

    "c. Turning threads into canon v EU wars is not allowed."
    Fair enough as well. Now if only the admins & mods would follow their own rules, everything would be yippy-skippy, or does the rule only apply to the OT forum?





     
  10. TIEace

    TIEace Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2000
    Question:

    Do they Special Editiona hold any ground? Or the Holiday Special?
     
  11. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek

    Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1999
    The Special Edition is the real version of the Trilogy. The Holiday Special is also part of the SW universe.
     
  12. Kadue

    Kadue Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2000
    EU is certainly allowed to use in speculation and discussion, and if it is dismissed out of hand and the user flamed because of that, then talk to us about it.

    And yes, mods are held to the same standard, but while I see what you are trying to get at with that link JM, there are two things wrong with it. The first is that that discussion took place a year ago, where the atmosphere and rules were different. This is the internet, a lot changes in a year. The second is that it took place before either of those people were even being considered for a moderator position. One was promoted in April, the other in June, yet the posts are from January.
     
  13. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Kadue wrote:
    "And yes, mods are held to the same standard, but while I see what you are trying to get at with that link JM, there are two things wrong with it. The first is that that discussion took place a year ago, where the atmosphere and rules were different."
    Incorrect. The discussion in the link I provided took place two months ago, which is after this thread had begun. This thread outlining the new rules was started on September 9th, 2001. The rules violation in question took place later, on November 1st, 2001. If the positions were reversed and that the rule was established after the violation, I wouldn't have posted the link.

    "The second is that it took place before either of those people were even being considered for a moderator position. One was promoted in April, the other in June, yet the posts are from January."
    Again incorrect. Commander Antilles was already an admin at the time. The discussion took place in November, not January.
     
  14. Commander Antilles

    Commander Antilles Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1999
    Meh. Are people still going on about this? [face_plain]

    Yes, I posted that remark about EU and canon, but perhaps we ought to post the relevant comments in their entirety, before jumping to conclusions, so we can consider this fairly..

    Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek:
    Well, then, we have the answer. It doesn't go against his vision unless he explicitly says so, so there is no need to debate this any further

    Commander Antilles:
    So you admit it's merchandising, and therefore not his vision, do you?

    And I'll stop debating this, here and elsewhere, when you admit that EU does not necessarily equal canon.


    I was simply replying to BF, T's post, not attempting to start yet another canon debate. Read this later post of mine in the thread, where I offered the EU fans an olive branch:
    Here's my view. You may consider EU equivalent to canon in your SW world if you believe, even though I disagree with that. You may not go around saying that EU is canon and that everyone has to accept that view? Can we all accept that?
     
  15. Kier_Nimmion

    Kier_Nimmion Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2000


    You may not go around saying that EU is canon and that everyone has to accept that view?


    Does this then also mean that you are likewise forbidden to go around saying that it isn't?
     
  16. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    "Yes, I posted that remark about EU and canon, but perhaps we ought to post the relevant comments in their entirety, before jumping to conclusions, so we can consider this fairly.."
    Except that no one was discussing whether or not EU = "canon," we were discussing whether or not EU fit with GL's vision of AGFFA. Since GL has never commented about "canon," but HAS commented on his vision of the SW Saga and EU's role in it, "canon" was an irrelevant issue, until you turned it into a "canon" discussion. Besides, I didn't post yours or anyone else's quotes, I posted a link so that others could read and draw their own conclusions.

    I commend you on offering the olive branch later on in the discussion, just as I've reprimanded Bib via PM and in threads about his obstinate nature.

    However, the fact remains that you were the one to open that Pandora's Box in the first place. Such boxes are not easily closed.

    Back on topic, I think that these rules are fair, so long as a proviso is added that ideas can't be bashed ONLY because they're EU-based, and admins & mods remember to lead by example.
     
  17. Commander Antilles

    Commander Antilles Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1999
    You missed the point of my post, Merkurian. Here's the relevant part again:

    Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek:
    Well, then, we have the answer. It doesn't go against his vision unless he explicitly says so, so there is no need to debate this any further

    Commander Antilles:
    So you admit it's merchandising, and therefore not his vision, do you?

    And I'll stop debating this, here and elsewhere, when you admit that EU does not necessarily equal canon.


    I was answering Bib's post. Bib has pretty uncompromising views on what is canon (and yes, you can say I do too, if you like). In all honesty, my comment was aimed solely at Bib. A canon war wasn't my intention but I guess we got one anyway. [face_plain]
     
  18. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    I don't think I'm missing your point, CA, I think you're missing mine.

    OK here's what I'm getting at-

    Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek:
    Well, then, we have the answer. It doesn't go against his vision unless he explicitly says so, so there is no need to debate this any further

    Debate what? You seemed to have thought that he was debating "canon," as evidenced by what you've said about your response. But he was in fact debating on-topic, albeit in an insulting fashion.

    *EDIT: Rather than tie up this thread, why don't we discuss this further via PM...
     
  19. BenQ

    BenQ Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2001
    The real problem with the debate over whether to include EU is that everyone has the same self-centered view of what is canon.

    From most to least canon:
    1. The stuff *I* have seen/read/bought.
    2. The stuff *I* would like to see/read/buy.
    3. The stuff *I* don't want but appreciate.
    4. The stuff *I* don't want to see/read/buy.
    5. The stuff that contridicts *MY* vision of the SW universe.


    In the end we all disagree with each other, just some people disagree more. Having a simple, straight forward rule (like the one that is posted at the start of this thread) seems to be the best way to avoid arguements,
    even if it keeps some people's canon from being regarded as fact in this forum.

     
  20. John of the collective

    John of the collective Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 1998
    An example

    Poster A:
    I always wondered where the Empire built star Destroyers, I mean For the number they must have needed to turn out, they must have had numberous planets and droids working on it yadda yadda.

    Poster B:
    EU Answers this The planet Kuat is this that and the other thing.

    Poster A: Hmmm, that's interesting, but wouldn't that be hard considering Whosits and Whatsits and such?

    Poster B: NO, THAT's WHAT EU SAYS, that's how it is. your just dumb for not wanting to believe EU.


    Poster B was BAD in the above situation.
    AND YES, it was exaggerated.

    So, to avoid that basically, the rule is that all Speculation is equal in the OT forum. EU is all well and good, but EU is not conisdered fact in this forum. EU is speculation and nothing more here. You aren't allowed to treat EU as more then speculation here.
     
  21. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    However John of the collective, the flipside is:

    ...Well according to the EU, the Empire has a major shipyard at the planet Kuat.

    Response: Don't go spEUwing that crap on these forums!

    Equally bad. Just as prevalent. [face_plain]
     
  22. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek

    Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1999
    The EU is much more "fact" than mere speculation, because it actually has a basis within the GFFA.
     
  23. Commander Antilles

    Commander Antilles Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1999
    The EU is much more "fact" than mere speculation, because it actually has a basis within the GFFA.

    Er, no. EU shares some of the characters and locations with the films, but 90% of it is invented by the authors rather than based on what Lucas gives you. I think we should all be able to agree on that point.
     
  24. John of the collective

    John of the collective Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 1998
    I agree with CA, there is absolutly no excuse for using the word FACT when discussing EU. With regards to the Classic Trilogy Forum, the ONLY FACTS are those explicitly stated in the movies anything else, whether I invent it in my Head, or Timothy Zahn invents it in his book is Conjecture. pure and simple. to present it as anything else is both detrimental to this forum and more often then not a good way to start up a flame war.

    Simply present it as a viable Idea, don't attempt to present it as more RIGHT then anything else simply, because its EU.

    Oh, and I understand that the opposite of my outlined conversation occurs. That's just as bad.
     
  25. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Precisely what percentage of EU is wholly original & what percentage is based on Lucas' input is debatable.

    I believe the point that Bib is making is that EU-based speculation is "more Star Wars" than the imagination of a Star Wars Fan. The problem is that EU gets bashed ONLY for being EU, while barmy fanboy ravings actually get a modicum of respect.

    I saw a thread where speculation about the fall of Anakin Skywalker was derived from a character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It was an interesting & thoughtful thread, but the source had nothing whatsoever to do with Star Wars. However, if someone where to put the words "dark" and "Jedi" together, you can bet a fat man that that poor soul will get flamed within minutes, no matter how good the idea was, and that's just plain wrong.

    All I ask is to debate merit, not source.
     
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