Phx Pledge of Allegiance ruled Unconstitutional in Federal Appeals Court

PUBLIC - where everyone is welcome.

Everyone except those who wish to use God's name publicly.

Force everyone to say it, no. But don't force everyone to shut up just because a few don't want it. The government telling you what you can and can not say in public is about this >< close to the communist system. No, I'm not being drastic. What would be next? Making it illegal to say God Bless America in public?

MJA

 

You know not to be mean or anything and I understand that people are entitled to their opinion but when someone makes a REALLY stupied one as has been posted about being in a "public school where everyone is welcome" if you dont like the way things are then get the heck out of this country and go to cuba. I stand outside my house every morning look at the American Flag and say the pledge. And now the kids are not going to feel like they are doing their part thank to some jerk who just needed something to do.

 

Parents, if you don't like the idea of your kid believing in a god... "This is the traditional way of saying the Pledge of Allegiance because of the history of our country, but our family does not believe in a god. Fortunately in this country we don't have to." Simple, you, the parent teach your child your beliefs, get an opening to teach a little history and don't have to interfere with any one else's right to openly express their beliefs.

 

I agree MJA.

 

Whoopie do, the pledge in public schools. As opposed to those signs praising Jesus along public roadways that I have to look at everytime I go up to Mick's ? Or the Morman church that I had to look at everytime I went to my public highschool that happened to be next door to it ? Or the bumperstickers everywhere saying "One Nation Under God" that I have to look at whenever a car is in front of me. If I don't want to see it then I look somewhere else.

If I decided in 1st grade that I didn't want to pledge my allegience to the USA then I didn't have to. But I did have to stand...why ? Because you will show respect for what others deem valuable, just like standing for the Canadian National Anthem at a hockey game...whether you're a Canadian citizen or not. Again, giving people the option to NOT do something is far better in my belief than it is to forbid them from doing something alltogether.

I was never pushed into anything like this (not counting my USAF indoctrination, but that's a special case I think) and I haven't heard of that from my other friends. I'm sorry if that happened to you, if you run into it in the future might I respectfully suggest advocating your freedom to decline doing it instead of removing the freedom for us to practice what we believe in ? Those of us who have served our country have offered our lives up for everybody to say "No I don't want to do this." We will fight and die without hesitation against those who only want to say "you can't do this."

 

Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States, oath of loyalty to the U.S. national emblem and to the nation it symbolizes. The idea for such a pledge is said to have originated with one of the editors of The Youth's Companion, a magazine for children. By proclamation of President Benjamin Harrison, the pledge was first used on October 12, 1892, during Columbus Day observances in the public schools. The original wording of the pledge was as follows:

I pledge allegiance to my flag and to
the republic for which it stands: one nation, indivisible, with liberty
and justice for all.


The pledge was amended subsequently by the substitution of the words "the flag of the United States of America" for the phrase "my flag." The newly worded pledge was adopted officially on Flag Day, June 14, 1924. By joint resolution of Congress the pledge was further amended in 1954 by the addition of the words "under God." This is how the pledge now reads:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.


6/26/2002: A federal appeals court rules that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is an unconstitutional "endorsement of religion" because of the addition of the phrase "under God" in 1954 by Congress.


What next?...someone telling me I am not a Christian because I agree with this ruling?

 

This should definitely be read.

---

Commentary on the Pledge of Allegiance

by Red Skelton


The following words were spoken by the late Red Skelton on his television program as he related the story of his teacher, Mr. Laswell, who felt his students had come to think of the Pledge of Allegiance as merely something to recite in class each day.

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you. If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?"

I -- me, an individual, a committee of one.

PLEDGE -- dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity.

ALLEGIANCE -- my love and my devotion.

TO THE FLAG -- our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job!

UNITED -- that means that we have all come together.

STATES -- individual communities that have united into 48 great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country.

AND TO THE REPUBLIC -- a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION -- one nation, meaning "so blessed by God"

INDIVISIBLE -- incapable of being divided.

WITH LIBERTY -- which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's own life without threats, fear or some sort of retaliation.

AND JUSTICE -- the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others.

FOR ALL -- which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance...

UNDER GOD

Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too?

- Red Skelton

[b]EDIT:[/b] Copied and pasted the commentary so that everyone could read, and things wouldn't be pulled specifically to be used out of context.

 

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." -Red Skelton

sounds fair to me

 

But not to me. What about those people who do believe that we are one nation under God? Won't the pledge then be partial to all those who don't believe in God, because the government took the word "God" out? Then, it's not exactly fair, is it? They should just leave it alone. If people don't want to say it, don't say it!

 

Disclaimer: I am an atheist. I do not beleive in God or a god, or any form of higher power. I also do not have a problem with people believing one way or the other, or stating those beliefs in public. It is one of the principals upon which this nation was founded.

Regarding the decision: It's about time. I have always felt uncomfortable with The Pledge because of the "under God" reference. I always felt it was unfair to me, even before the whole political correctness agenda came into being. I eagerly pledge my support, love, and even my life to this country, but to force someone to pledge "under God" is not sympathetic to the beliefs of all.

To all the millitary types: I was VERY close to joining up. I have no problem serving my country and fighting its enemies. As far as the comment regarding combat on the front lines, though I have had no military experience, I have had occasion to find myself in several situations in which I truly believed I would die, and God never once entered my mind. Atheists are no more likely to change their stripes any more than a Christian or Buddist would renounce his or her religion.

To all the people who may call me unpatriotic: Don't you dare. I ALWAYS stand for the pledge and recite it (minus one phrase). I ALWAYS stand for the flag as it passes. I ALWAYS stand for the national anthem. I have reprimanded more people than I can count for failing to properly retire a dirty or worn flag, failure to remove a hat in respect, failure to stand, and for wearing the flag as clothing (I was particularly outraged when I saw the American athletes at the Winter Olympics wrapping themselves in flags as if wearing a robe).

I was in the Boy Scouts of America, and achieved scouting's highest honor, the rank of Eagle Scout. I could hardly have risen so far without a sense of pride in my country.

In closing: The 9th circuit court of appeals did take it too far by saying students cannot say The Pledge, but I firmly believe that it should be modified, so as not to exclude anyone with its language.

EDIT: I attempt not to inflame or aggravate. As this country is founded on the belief of equality for all, I have posted my opinion.

 

...I firmly believe that it should be modified, so as not to exclude anyone with its language

agreed

Well said, Mobius.
/applause/

 

Moe, I don't think anyone here is questioning you loyalty. My years in the Scouts taught me a lot about pride and loyalty, I remember that even in grade school I was one of the few people that took the Pledge seriously.

I think, however, my problem with the ruling lies in the fact that the government is just further restricting the rights of the people. This is a country where we pride ourselves on fighting for freedom...always have. But personally, I don't believe that it's the government's responsibility - or right for that matter - to tell me what I can and can't say and do. I'm perfectly capable of regulating myself and facing the consequences of my actions when I screw up.

 

I agree, IA. As I said, I think the Court of Appeals took it too far when they said The Pledge could not be recited. My main point in the last paragraph is that The Pledge should be changed to reflect the diversity of the American people by making it less sensitive to one religion or group of religions.

As far as the patriotism thing: I guess I got a little excited, because there was a little naysaying of those who agreed, and the subtext seemed to indicate that those people were unpatriotic. I felt it neccessary to accurately portray myself, in order to avoid the possible stigma of being catagorized as unpatriotic, especially in this critical time our country faces with the threat of terrorism.

Again, I reiterate the fact that none of you has offended me directly, and I mean no offense to any of you.

May the force be with us all.

Hope, pray, or wish (or whatever your beliefs allow) for a brighter future.

 

Stands on my soapbox.

I have so many misgivings about this whole thing, I don't even know where to start.

If it weren?t for Red Skelton I would have never known that the phrase "under God" was added. I myself do believe in God quite strongly, and if you look at the history of this country, it would seem fitting. I have no problem with someone leaving it out if that person should choose to do so. Once again, either way of reciting the pledge shouldn't be forced.

$5 says the ACLU had some say in this one.

Quote: check out crime rate graphs before and after these laws started appearing in the 60's.

Here is an interesting tidbit I heard on a talk radio show. Since the late 60's public education had been focusing on Civil Rights and avoiding moral obligations due to concerns of preaching religion. Hmmm, I'm seeing a correlation here. My rights are important to me but with these civil rights come responsibilities, such as honor thy mother and father and love thy neighbor. If you've been around long enough you might have noticed that the selfish traits once looked down on, are paraded around the media and now the younger generations applaud and admire it.

Ok back to the topic. Why couldn't this father understand that the other children in the classrooms of America (founded on freedom of religion I might add) have the right to believe in God or the Dietey of their choosing, if they so choose, and tell his child (or children) that if they don't care to say it than just leave out that part. Oh no... Let's just get a lawyer and sue!

puts away soapbox and counts to 10

And by the way, I have the MP3 of Red Skeltons' Pledge of Allegiance. It's 1.9MB @ 64Kbps. I can e-mail it to those that wish to hear it. E-mail me at e_line_65@hotmail.com and I'll send it to you... for no money down. lol

on a side note... as I mentioned, I do believe in God but I do have a problem with organized religion.

 

I felt I had to post this as some people have been talking about crime rates. I did a speech on gun-control (there's too much of it), and in my research discovered that aside from everyone seems to say and think, overall national crime has been dropping since the early 90s and is at a 20 year low. Again, I know this is slightly OT.

I am a Christian. I was put through private school from 1st through 12th grade. But instead of going off to an Adventist (my religion) college, I decided to go to a local college, and it's been my first non-private school experience.

I'm not sure where I stand in this ruling. Maybe there should be two versions of the pledge. One for public schools, one for private christian schools. But then every other religion will want their own version as well.

If you don't want to say it, don't say it! To the people that say that if you want your child to hear about God or religion in school, send them to private school. Unfortunately, the harsh reality is that not all families can afford the high cost of tuition. I personally knew many families that couldn't.

As for Atheists, I applaude you! You've taken a stand.

School should be a place to learn, not be critcized for your beliefs. Of course, no one's going to stop other students from verbally and physically abusing others, but restriction (on beliefs) should not come from the higher ups, unless such practices disrupt or cause harm.

 

obey, on what you said about how no one was forcing the kids to do it, well... i was raised a jehovah's witness (i no longer am one, by the way), so when i was in second grade i still technically was one. among many things, JW's believe some weird stuff about how saluting the flag or saying the pledge of allegiance is kind of like worshipping an idol... whatever, i don't have an opinion either way on that. but my point is when i told my teacher that it was against my religion to salute the flag/say the pledge, she told me to put my head down on my desk while everyone else was saying the pledge, sort of like punishment, you know? it was definitely inferred that i should be saying the pledge and even though i wasn't forced, i was pressured and felt sort of uncomfortable.

that was just that teacher, i know, but i'm sure many people would do similar things to their students if faced with the same situation.

[ edit: i thought this was only a one page topic for some reason and i'm too lazy to read page two right now, so sorry if i'm bringing up an old topic in here. ]

 

For those of you who think that it is appropriate to use the phrase "under God" in a public school classroom, I would ask you to answer the following questions:

1. How many of you knew, before this decision, that the "under God" phrase was added during the McCarthy era?

2. How many of you knew that saying the Pledge was optional?

My answers:
1. Yes, I knew this was a relic of a dark time in our nation's history.

2. No. I was certainly forced to participate.

 

Ok, I just cant let a few of these comments go by without being countered, then I guess I'll leave 'cause people won't want me arround since I disagree.

"It just seems that in the interest of keeping "church and state" separate (an opinion of which I keep similiar to OB1 on that one) the government/public is condoning everying EXCEPT a person's right to believe and worship publicly. You can't pray in school but you can wear blatantly satanical symbols and clothing (no offense meant to anyone)."

You can pray all you want. You can wear a crucifix, star of david, anhk, ctr ring or a blatantly Christian shirt. What you can't do is have school sanctioned organized prayer.

"Even though I served to defend my country, because I am a white, Christian male, I have no special rights, therefore I basically don't have any rights under the current form of government."

I respect and honor those who serve, but you do have the same rights as everyone else. Please list a right you are not granted.

"These extremists can't stand us pro-military conservative types, .... I'd like to put those Sumpreme Court types on the front lines in Afghanistan"

The US Supreme Court is a fairly conservative body which would likely overturn this ruling if it decided to hear this case. Do you even know who you are angry at? It was the 9th District Court of Appeals.

 

hippie1kenobi: Don't worry about not being wanted because you disagree; the most interesting conversations/debates are between people who have different views but can intelligently provide reasons for why they believe what they do.

 

Exactly

 

I heard a funny thing on the Daily Show where they said that if taking God out of the Pledge, it will be replaced with product placememnt to help finance the Government. Companies will pay Millions of dollars to have their product recited by children in elementry school. Example.

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic, for which it stands, one nation under SKITTLES tm. with liberty and justice for all.

LP
PS. Taste the rainbow!

 

[face_shocked]



Or what if it was, "one nation under GAP?"

 

You may be speaking tongue in cheek, but many religious bodies (such as the Morman church, Catholic church) hold a lot more assets than retail corporations.

Just a twist.

 

Interesting discussion. My first post here, Phoenix is home to me but I won't be back for a while.

I guess I'm what you'd call a 'pseudo-christian.' I belive in a higher power and think Jesus was a helluva guy (devine or not) but I also get a lot from Buddism. I'm not a literalist and I don't care too much for the big organized churches.

The comment has been made numerous times here that since the 60's public schools have turned away from god and that is the root of societies decay. I would argue that the reasons for this are far more complicated and complex and not so easily compressed into a convient 'bad guy' we can all boo.

I would like to point out that religous belief is at an all time high in this country and more and more people continue to take up going to churches. Besides, religeon does not always mean greater morality. I grew up an athiest yet I've always held a very high standard of morality.

Don't be so hard on this guy. He doesn't want his daughter to pledge alligence to a god they do not belive in. To him he is fighting for his right to not be forced into accepting a religeon he does not belive in. I wouldn't make you pledge loyalty to Zeus, would I?

Anyway I wish he never bothered with it. Most of my peers and I didn't even KNOW all the words to the pledge until 3rd grade and at 5th (the last year I ever had to say it) I just stood there and mumbled over it like everyone else was doing which is the same thing my dad and his peers did in the 50's when they DID have prayer in school. I say the ruling should be disregarded and that this whole thing go away. If we're constantly divided by issues like this that don't do anything to put our people to work and keep our children fed then nothing good will ever get done.

 

You may be speaking tongue in cheek, but many religious bodies (such as the Morman church, Catholic church) hold a lot more assets than retail corporations

From what I hear, and I work with quite a few mormans, Retail is alot of the Morman assets.
Albertsons being one. I also heard on History channel that it was the mormans that first populated Vegas (long before the flamingo) encuraged the gambling and prostitution there so that they could make money.

No I'm not anti-morman or anything!
[Face_angel]