Plo Koon's lightsaber style

Actually, it's the user that matters; what good is a fighting form if you can't keep the level head needed to pull a victory? Losing your temper in a duel sets you up for making mistakes, which could cost you the battle. As it did to Anakin. Obi-Wan kept his wits about him in that duel, and that's what gave him a victory.
Kenobi's attitude is much like Top Gun's Ice Man; he dances around you, cool and even-tempered, until you make a mistake. But once you make that mistake, he's got you. Anakin made a mistake, and Obi-Wan capitalized off of it.

I doubt very much that Jocasa Nu ever took out a squad of Mandalorians (albeit Dooku did not do that alone), or bested General Grievous in saber combat. Note that about 5 Jedi lost to Grievous prior to Dooku besting the General.

 

Your ability to point out the obvious is charming, although boring. Of COURSE, Robal, the most important thing is how well each opponent uses whichever Form it is that they use. Which is, you know, the reason Yoda's able to actually win fights. But I'm not comparing fighters, I'm comparing the STYLES of fighters.

Also, I am not saying that there aren't reasons why Dooku is good - I'm saying that his rep isn't one of them. Compared to Anakin, or Luke, or Kun, or Sidious, however - he's nothing. Just like Grievous is able to whoop up on people and still come home to get pwned by Dooku.

 

I doubt Obi-Wan got really lucky. I think it's more along the lines of...Anakin got really cocky, and that cost him a lot.

---

As for the Dooku/Anakin duel:

Anakin was more powerful, but Dooku had much more experience, did he not? That was the situation with Obi-Wan and Anakin in their duel (Anakin had more power, but Obi-Wan had an experience edge), so wouldn't Dooku have more experience than Anakin? Yes, he would.
So how was he so easily overtaken? Take this into consideration: Palpatine.

Palpatine was, in my belief, feeding Anakin's power, even giving him some. It's not ubelieveable, nor is it impossible. I believe he was doing the same for Luke when he defeated Vader. Why wouldn't he? Palpatine wanted Anakin to take over Dooku's spot, and Luke to take over Vader's. He was present for both duels, and in a similar situation. Palpatine, being as powerful as he is, could've easily influenced the battle in Anakin's favor (or Luke's, if we're speaking of the duel on the Death Star II, which we're not :)). To me, there is no possible way Anakin could've so easily beaten Dooku, it's just not possible.
I've heard the argument "Dooku was hiding the whole time, whilst Anakin was out fighting in the war!", but that argument is paper thin, and pathetic. Consider this: Anakin is fighting in the war, yes, but what is he fighting, Sith? Jedi? No. Droids. He's defelcting blaster bolts, not matching blades. See? :) His power may have doubled, but his skill with a blade was likely not superior to Dooku's.

I am under the belief that Palpatine, being a powerful and manipulative Sith Lord, influenced that battle between Dooku and Anakin, in his future apprentice's favor.

Furthermore, Dooku (and even Vader, if we were to go there) wasn't trying to kill Anakin (or Luke, in Vader's case) -- it is my beleif the Count was trying to turn Anakin. Thus, he was likely holding back, perhaps fighting defensively or even using total defense simply to frustrate Anakin enough that he might call on the Dark Side out of anger (which we saw with Luke when he was fighting Vader). Once Dooku realized he was in mortal danger, likely he stopped pulling punches, but by then, it might have been too late to turn the tide of the duel.

To be honest, the above wasn't really on topic with Palpatine. Let me speak on this, now.

Palpatine. He not only wanted to turn Anakin but also wanted to get Dooku out of the way. That being the case, he could have done a few things to boost the odds in his favor (keep in mind, I am an RP'er, so I may lose some of you):

-Use "Force Mind" or "Improved Force Mind" to give Anakin a bonus to a key attribute, such as his saber skills, strength, or something of the like.
-Use "Control Mind" (from the Dark Side Sourcebook ;) ) to grant Anakin a bonus to attacks and skills he would be using (much like I said, above).
-Use "Sith Master" (a class ability of Sith Lord, also from the Dark Side Sourcebook ;) ) to temporarily give Anakin extra ranks in critical Force skills that would allow him the upper hand in his duel with Dooku.

With so much working in Anakin's (and this can also be applied to Luke's duel with Vader) favor, it's quite plausible that the objectively weaker combatant could win each battle.

This is, however, my opinion. :)

~Vassago

 

NP edit: That is not an acceptable way to talk to other users.

 

No reason to sling mud; this is a friendly debate, after all.
But I believe I took what you said the wrong way; I saw it as you selling Kenobi short, when in fact, he was one of the best in the Order. My apologies for the misunderstanding, but please, keep a civil tone in here. It will make things easier for everyone.

Don't be so sure; Dooku was definately not as powerful as Sidious or Luke, but he was no pushover. He had a reputation for being an excellent swordsman, and he lived up to that in defeating Obi-Wan and Anakin in AOTC, Quinlan Vos, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous... not to mention his dueling Yoda to a stalemate. Dooku was extraordinary with the saber when he was a Jedi, and just as good when he was a Sith.
Dooku also had a reputation for being dangerous, which he was; the Seperatist leaders feared him for good reason. Quinlan Vos learned the hard way that Dooku was dangerous, as did Asajj Ventress.

 

My statements are based off the Dark Side source book, which is, to my knowledge, canonical. I'm not trying to rationalize anything because my favorite character got "owned", I'm collecting evidence from a canonical source, and making a valid point. This isn't a fanfiction, Akira; if you'll notice I said at the bottom "this is my opinion", if you have a problem with it, save it.

~Vassago

 

Good enough.

Dooku is a good swordsman, but he's just shy of being elite. Obi-Wan is kinda meh, and Form II IMO is the perfect foil for Soresu - so he was screwed from the beginning. Vos and Ventress are also decent duelists, of course Grievous - but Anakin obliterated the poor man - his powers were, according to the novelization, only enough to deal with Obi-Wan with his 'last burst of dark power'. His skill is good, but he's not the best skillsman and he's very weak Force wise.

Almost everything you said was preceded by, "it is my belief", or some other perturbation of the same phrase, and almost everything that followed such a phrase was crap. Count Dooku trying to turn Anakin? You serious? Throwing in RPG stats at the end to show that its physically possible that Anakin was helped - which I didn't need sourcebook info to know - doesn't rationalize your argument as a whole or lend you any credibility whatsoever. Sidious wanted Anakin to use his anger and strike Dooku down with it - that is, to turn to the Dark Side, which would be more than enough to take out Dooku's weak ass. If Sidious merely wanted Anakin to WIN, that would have been very easy and would not have required secrecy.

Secondly, your logic of saying what Dooku couldn't have lost to Anakin is just...meh. Anakin crossed blades enough time to beat a chump like Dooku - he uses Form V. This form is perfect for Force users of power, even more power than skill, because it combines it's movements with powerful Force amplification. This is why V

 

ALRIGHT!! THAT'S ENOUGH OUT OF YOU TWO! THERE WILL BE NO ARGUING IN HERE! IS THAT CLEAR!?!?! THIS IS A FRIENDLY THREAD, AND RACISM OF ANY KIND, OR INSULTS, OR ANYTHING SIMILAR, IS NOT ALOUD!!!! IF YOU HAVE ANY ARGUMENTS OF THIS SORT, TAKE IT OUTSIDE! THIS IS YOUR WARNING!

---

[b]GrandAdmiralJello:[/b] Dead wrong. For one, the Essential Guides aren't sourcebooks--notice the key absence of the word sourcebook. You'll find that the term sourcebook is a reserved word used to describe RPG materials.

And secondly, the EGs were published under WEG and the NEGs are from WotC. They *are* RPG materials, even if you don't see it. They use material from those sourcebooks.

And authors are very rarely given novels to go from. DR gives them the Holocron, but in the olden days, they got a bunch of sourcebooks and guides to fill out the holes in their knowledge.
[hr]

You got me there friend! [face_happy] Plz accept my apology for my misunderstandings.

 

...lol. Read my sentence again.

 

I never ment you said it racismly(not sure if that is a word). I was giving examples of insults. I have heard them on here when 2 peeps got in a big fight. I was just giving yall that to make sure it didn't come to that. I don't really believe it would, but just in case.

 

Well golly gee

Obi-Wan is actually one of the best duelists in the Jedi Order.
From what I've seen, I'd say Dooku was among the elite; you saying otherwise is your opinion, and you're entitled to it, of course. But Dooku has lost to one man when clashing blades: Anakin. Dooku defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin (two of the Order's best), and after that, fought Yoda to a standstill. That in itself is impressive; after duelling two other Jedi, he still had the skill to go toe to toe with the head of the Order.

 

Dooku is definitly one of the best with the blade. Just because you're defeated by one guy doesn't mean crap. It just means that 1 person is better than you. And it clearly states in the novelization that Form II should not really be used against Form III, considering Makashi relies on an oponent to leave a hole in their defense, and Sorusu focuses on NOT doing that exact mistake. But you are entitled to your opinion.

 

Personally, I think the NJO and the Emperor's cronies were the weak ones. Only Luke, Jaina, Jacen, Kyle Katarn, Anakin Solo, a few other masters, and Darth Vader showed any skill. All those other guys were pathetic. No wonder the NJO got screwed so bad during the Yuzzahan Vong War.

 

Who really isn't massively inferior to the Chosen One? According to everyone, Anakin is the end-all in the Star Wars universe which I think is overkill. Dooku is overrated? I think not. He's widely seen as the "stupid old man who replaced the much cooler Darth Maul, and has a dumb bent lightsaber" by fans. He gets no respect, and it's not a surprise that Akira looks down on him the way he does. I am, however, surprised tha Jello even acknowledges that Dooku has any skill.

On a sidenote, Akira; you need to calm down.

~Vassago

 

Sidious
Exile
Revan
Luke
Jacen
Yoda
Kun
Ulic Qel-Droma

Shall I continue?

Well he's stupid, old, a man, Maul was cooler, and his lightsaber was made for a silly form, so we're 5/5 there. He doesn't deserve any respect, except possibly for beating Obi-Wan - and you shouldn't be surprised that I look down on the Dookster, because I deal with better Force users in most of my SW experience.

Malcolm, Mumia and Huey fo life!

The corporate media doesn't help matters when it blares
about the falling unemployment figures, or the rising Dow Jones
average, when neither indicator really reflects much to average
working folks. - Mumia Abu-Jamal


NP edit: Not acceptable.

 

just to chime in here, from what i've read form III was supposed to be the one that was nearly unbeatable in the hands of a true master, at least from anything that i have read. and one thing to bear in mind with obi-wan is that he was considered by the order to be a MASTER of this form. he also had been learning form IV so he also had that knowledge do draw upon while he as fighting, thus combining a form that is mainly for defense and one that is mainly offense. the fact that dooku beat him shows exactly how good dooku was. obi-wan, yoda, mace and anakin were considered to be the top of the jedi order unless i'm mistaken, mace and yoda as the two best. even dooku feared to fight mace windu, unless i'm mistaken. and i've read in a couple of comics that sidious was the best duelist ever, which for some reason i can't seem to swallow.

anyways, form V is was meant as a permutation of form III to give it some offense, working to not make mistakes while being able to actually take the fight to someone. it was not created for fighting other lightsaber duelist one on one, but several at a time, while retaining the high blaster deflection ablilty. a form II master would normally be able to destroy a form V used because it was designed for ONE ON ONE, which requires that you move differently than when you are fighting several opponents. so one on one anakin should not have been able to beat dooku. personally i'm of the same opinion as vassago, that palpatine was influencing the fight, if not by helping anakin, then by confounding dooku. doubling your control and power in the force does not by any means that you have doubled your ability with a blade, not by a long shot. and anakin fought dooku one other time, and lost again. he had doubled his skills from that point, but he still had his butt handed to him on a platter in that fight. so i can't see how doubling that would put him ahead of dooku, who had also been working on his skills as well. it might have come close to putting them on even footing, but there is no way to have put him ahead of dooku, at least when it comes to dueling.

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would that mean he wants to be jello?

i have to agree with vassago again, the EXILE? REVAN? they're video game characters. a very pathetic attempt to try to make a point. i'd be willing to bet dooku'd trash either one of them.

 

Exile, and Revan !? My respect, what little I had for you, is gone, Akira. You're entitled to your opinion on Dooku, however ludicrous it may be, as am I.

I don't need to calm down. I'm not the one going on about how Dooku got " his ass pwnt". There are easier ways to say that, and ways that don't make you look quite as illiterate. I would also like to point our your attempt to imitate Jello, and what he does, is pathetic, at best.

~Vassago

 

I will grieve.

Because using colloquialisms is the same as being angry and illiterate? That's hilarious. How exactly am I imitating Jello, may I ask?

Malcolm, Mumia and Huey fo life!

We want to hit a homosexual in the mouth because we are afraid that we might be homosexual; and we want to hit the women or shut her up because we are afraid that she might castrate us, or take the nuts that we might not have to start with.
We must gain security in ourselves and therefore have respect and feelings for all oppressed people. - Huey Newton

 

Trimaj, as for your argument...meh and a half. Sure, Soresu has the reputation of any true master being indomitable(although I'd dispute that Obi-Wan was a master in AotC). And Makashi has the reputation of winning any battle being a true master of it. But these are just words. Words that have little connection to reality. If you looked at earth martial arts, you'd find similar parallels - and you'd also find that some people in these 'indomitable' styles lose to other, better people.

And please inform me as to why using Revan and Exile is out of the question.