Plot hole in the saga?

So, the only way to explain these events are with events that "probably" happened offscreen or between films, although are not referenced or alluded to in any way...

So what's a "plot hole" again?

 

So what's a "plot hole" again?

something that just doesn't make sense, it makes sense for Obi-Wan to have trained Luke, or for Vader to have heard of Luke after ANH

 

Darth Leeda, I would say that you're analysis of Kenobi's emphasis was correct. But positive statements are supposed to stand regardless of why they are brought up. Therefore, I think we still have an issue here.

Storm, I don't really see how me giving an interpretation would help. Because: A)how skilled of a screenwriter I am (I'm not) doesn't have anything to do with whether Lucas wrote the scene well or not, B)that he couldn't find anyway to address it better doesn't mean its not a plot hole--it just means he wrote himself into a corner. And C), if you really insist, the sentence could've simpyl ended with "a revered Jedi Master" or "the greatest Jedi still living" or something of that nature that would've conveyed the same information without causing a possible plot hole.

 

"How did R2D2 and C3P0 get off Geonosis?"

Uhm, probably the same way Anakin and Padme did. They were together on Naboo, after all.

"if you really insist, the sentence could've simpyl ended with "a revered Jedi Master" or "the greatest Jedi still living" or something of that nature that would've conveyed the same information without causing a possible plot hole. "

Agreed. Even "One of the Jedi Masters who instructed me." It's not as impossible as some might make it out to be.

Of course, Yoda didn't even exist until Lucas needed another Jedi Master to replace Ben and train Luke.

 

You're correct, Jabba-wocky.

However, I think it is possible to hear it that way from a CPOV. I guess I'm looking at "There, you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master," and "who instructed me." as two separate statements.

I'm actually not a big fan of the CPOV factor. Unfortunately, it is necessary to accept it to overlook GL's clunkiness.

Personally, Here's my take (and I've argued this many times):

Yoda was NOT THE Jedi Master who instructed OB1. He was merely one of the Jedi Masters who instructed him. The only way that the TESB line works is if Qui-Gon was not a Jedi-Master. He was referred to as Master in TPM. I took that to mean he was a Jedi Master. You never know with GL though.

Here's the bottom line: If Qui-Gon IS a Jedi-Master, then OB1's TESB is not only inaccurate, it is incorrect. Yes, Yoda did instruct OB1. However, since Yoda was not the ONLY instructor OB1 had, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY ANYONE CAN VALIDATE SAYING THE Jedi Master. It's just completely incorrect. Unless of course you want to suspend your disbelief and look at it as hearing it from a CPOV as I stated previously.

-DL

 

So, the only way to explain these events are with events that "probably" happened offscreen or between films, although are not referenced or alluded to in any way...

So what's a "plot hole" again?

By that reasoning - Leia having a different hairstyle and different clothes on in Bespin is a plot hole. They never show her doing her hair and changing clothes.

How could this be? This cannot possibly be left to the audience to just KNOW THAT SOME THINGS HAPPEN OFFSCREAN AND EVERY LAST DETAIL DOES NOT NEED TO BE SPELLED OUT.

 

By the miracle of the Force, I find myself in a cold, dark environment amidst a whipping wind. Instinctively, my eyes find Luke sprawled over the tumbling snow bank in front of me.

He must survive. If there is any hope in the Force coming back into balance, Luke must survive.

But he is not ready. If he is to face his father, he must be trained.

By the will of the Force, Yoda has seen the boy, and his powers. We have discussed this possibility ever since we sent Anakin's children into hiding. Now, in these latest years, our plight has become even more earnest.

Time is short, and only my most powerful mentor can prepare him now. The wisest of them all. He who built, trained, and guided the Order over a span of centuries. Now, sadly, the only Jedi who remains. Luke, lying there unconscious, must find him. I must get his attention.

It is time. My master needs my intervention.

But what is this? I hear a beast between the whistles of the wind. Captain Solo is approaching. I don't have much time.

I call out.

"Luke........Luke......"

 

"By that reasoning - Leia having a different hairstyle and different clothes on in Bespin is a plot hole. They never show her doing her hair and changing clothes.

How could this be? This cannot possibly be left to the audience to just KNOW THAT SOME THINGS HAPPEN OFFSCREAN AND EVERY LAST DETAIL DOES NOT NEED TO BE SPELLED OUT. "

Agreed. People who can't use common sense to justify things (or can, but choose to hold it against the movie anyway) induce eye-rolls from me, because I mean...come on. It's only a "plot hole" if it directly contradicts itself.

 

A)how skilled of a screenwriter I am (I'm not) doesn't have anything to do with whether Lucas wrote the scene well or not

I'm only curious to know how you would have addressed Luke if you were Obi Wan.....that's all....I guess you can't. *shrug*

B)that he couldn't find anyway to address it better doesn't mean its not a plot hole--it just means he wrote himself into a corner.

I never expected Yoda to be Kenobi's only master. To me, it seemed too corny of a plot that - just by dumb luck - both a master and his apprentice from years ago survived the Jedi purge. And this master of his happens to be the strongest and wisest who trained countless other Jedi for hundreds of years!

For years and years, I just could not picture a master-apprentice relationship. Yoda's qualities seemed better served by mastering the Order, not just one apprentice.

Too bad for you that you can't shake that notion out of your head every time you watch the PT and the OT. Don't blame Lucas. Simply adjust your frame of mind.

And C), if you really insist, the sentence could've simpyl ended with "a revered Jedi Master" or "the greatest Jedi still living" or something of that nature that would've conveyed the same information without causing a possible plot hole.

Yet you feel that Obi Wan has no emotional connection with Yoda whatsoever? As is clearly shown throughout the PT, Yoda acts as the father figure to all of the Jedi. Everyone uses his expertise, experience, and counsel whether they're 5 years old, or 50. Yoda is the embodiment of the Jedi Order.

Imagine growing up and being a devout parishioner who has a close relationship with the monsignor at the rectory of your parish. You may not see him on a day-to-day basis, but you know he'll always be there to offer assistance or guidance at a moment's notice. Now, if you take it a step further and imagine years later that you've actually become one of those priests at that parish, you can see the connection that would develop over the decades.

Now consider the fact that Yoda and Kenobi share one crucial thing in common that all the other Jedi do not: they survived.

If Obi Wan doesn't use the definitive article "the", then it's pretty safe to say he's got some explaining to do to Luke.

If you truly feel this is "bad" storytelling by Lucas, then you're really stretching to find the flaws. Get over it and move on. M'kay?

If Lucas had somehow concocted the most kick arse prequel trilogy for you bashers, while still keeping Qui Gon in the story, somehow you wouldn't even bat an eyelash over this detail.

Whiners.....*rolls eyes* Get me outta here!

 

Don't let it hit you on the way out.

 

>>>By that reasoning - Leia having a different hairstyle and different clothes on in Bespin is a plot hole. They never show her doing her hair and changing clothes.

OK- so what's that got to do with the plot?

>>>something that just doesn't make sense, it makes sense for Obi-Wan to have trained Luke, or for Vader to have heard of Luke after ANH

But something that doesn't make sense isn't necessarily a plot hole. (Like lightsabers, for example. Or Jedi tossing battle droids around the place...)

It would make perfect sense if Anakin was already Vader at the start of Episode III (it made sense when he was already Vader at the start of IV...)- we could easily figure out that the turn/tranformation happened offscreen between films. But it would still leave a great big gaping HOLE in the PLOT.

>>>>Uhm, probably the same way Anakin and Padme did. They were together on Naboo, after all.

Sure, but where were they when last seen on Geonosis?
Did Anakin and Padme return to the arena (which I got the impression was right by the droid factory, geonosisian headquarters etc.) just to pick them up?

 

But something that doesn't make sense isn't necessarily a plot hole. (Like lightsabers, for example. Or Jedi tossing battle droids around the place...)

i ment something that doesn't make sense storywise of course

 

It would make perfect sense if Anakin was already Vader at the start of Episode III (it made sense when he was already Vader at the start of IV...)- we could easily figure out that the turn/tranformation happened offscreen between films. But it would still leave a great big gaping HOLE in the PLOT.

huh?

when Episode 2 ends we see him marrying the woman he loves most in the entire galaxy

how does this "easily" translate into him being more machine than man & under the tutelage of Palpatine in Episode 3

it made sense he was Vader at the start of IV because Episodes 1/2/3 will make it make sense(if George does his job right, wich he ha done so far)

i honestly don't see how you cannot understand that

 

Did Anakin and Padme return to the arena (which I got the impression was right by the droid factory, geonosisian headquarters etc.) just to pick them up?

well, consider the fact that they're with Anakin & Padme in the next shot, does that answer your question ?

 

Obi_Frans,

>>>huh? [...] how does this "easily" translate into him being more machine than man & under the tutelage of Palpatine in Episode 3

You're missing my point.

If Anakin's transformation were left offscreen, it would be possible for us to figure out that X,Y and Z "probably" happened between films. But it would be a plot hole, because there's an important part of the plot which simply isn't being shown or told in the films- there's a gap which we're having to fill in ourselves by inventing things that happened.

In the same way, Vader's discovery that he has a son called Luke Skywalker who was trained by Obi Wan and hangs around with the people who fly in the Millenium Falcon is possible for us to figure out- chances are, he heard of the pilot who blew up the death star, figured out the rest from his name and the fact the Millenium Falcon came to his rescue. But that's purely in our imagination, and isn't even alluded to in the films. It's a plot hole. (Not as big a hole as the hypothetical example above, but a plot hole nontheless.)

>>>well, consider the fact that they're with Anakin & Padme in the next shot, does that answer your question?

Not really, no. You're telling me that they went back to the arena that they had just had an incredibly narrow escape from in order to rescue a couple of poxy droids?
Not only is this inventing something that didn't happen in the film, but it's inventing something that makes very little logical sense, IMHO. (Maybe I'm missing something obvious? I haven't watched AOTC in a while...)


Can you tell me what sort of thing you would call a plot hole, because I can't help feeling like we're talking on completely different wavelengths here.

 

Not really, no. You're telling me that they went back to the arena that they had just had an incredibly narrow escape from in order to rescue a couple of poxy droids?
Not only is this inventing something that didn't happen in the film, but it's inventing something that makes very little logical sense, IMHO. (Maybe I'm missing something obvious? I haven't watched AOTC in a while...)

well, considering C3PO is the last thing Anakin has that has anything to do with his mommy, plus he created him, plus the Droids were already retreating & the geonosians went into hiding, it could have easily been done


Can you tell me what sort of thing you would call a plot hole, because I can't help feeling like we're talking on completely different wavelengths here.

in Star Wars it is very difficult to pinpoint a plothole since it is very to pull out Obi-Wans infamous "Certain point of view" card

but lets look at AOTC, the Jedi are surrounded by Droids in a HUGE stadium, SUNLIGHT is beaming on top of them as they face their doom, all are skilled Jedi & a Sith, then suddenly Padme(the ONE non-force-sensitive) manages to detect MASSES of Ships towering above them, meanwhile there curiously is still Sunlight beaming all over them

that right there just doesn't make sense(if anyone can offer an explanation, please do for it is the ONE thing bugging me about AOTC)

maybe our definitions of plotholes just differ, but this right here can just not be explained(or my vision is clouded.....no not by the darkside)

 

Here´s a "plot hole" for you. It´s in ROTJ:

First, Yoda says to Luke that he wasn´t ready for the burden of knowing the truth about Vader.
Then, Luke asks Obi-Wan "Why didn´t you tell me?"
Did Owen hit him too many times with his hydrospanner or was he born stupid?

Not exactly a plot hole, but rather confusing.

 

"Not really, no. You're telling me that they went back to the arena that they had just had an incredibly narrow escape from in order to rescue a couple of poxy droids?"

It's a bit safer now, since they have backup. Besides, what is your alternative explanation? You think those bad, bad TF droids just let them walk out of the arena?

" well, considering C3PO is the last thing Anakin has that has anything to do with his mommy, plus he created him, plus the Droids were already retreating & the geonosians went into hiding, it could have easily been done "

Agreed on all counts. Don't forget that R2 saved Padme's ass in TPM, and she expresses her gratitude thusly. In the eyes of Padme and Anakin, those two are far more than just "proxy droids".

 

>>>well, considering C3PO is the last thing Anakin has that has anything to do with his mommy, plus he created him, plus the Droids were already retreating & the geonosians went into hiding, it could have easily been done

With Obi Wan and Yoda in tow? Despite attachments and posessions being forbidden for a Jedi? And with the little matter of having an amputated arm to deal with?


>>>Besides, what is your alternative explanation? You think those bad, bad TF droids just let them walk out of the arena?

Well, I don't see why they would be bothered, but I say it's a plot hole, pure and simple.

(This is the same C3P0 who Anakin and Padme left to rust on Tatooine for ten years without even bothering finishing him off, with only Shmi to keep him company, right? )

 

(This is the same C3P0 who Anakin and Padme left to rust on Tatooine for ten years without even bothering finishing him off, with only Shmi to keep him company, right? )

he left him there so his mom wouldn't be alone, he even says so in the movie

 

When?

 

yeah you're right, he doesn't say it, my apologys


...but he does leave 3PO so his mom wouldn't be alone, guess i must've picked that up from the Novel but it's true

 

"First, Yoda says to Luke that he wasn´t ready for the burden of knowing the truth about Vader.
Then, Luke asks Obi-Wan "Why didn´t you tell me?"
Did Owen hit him too many times with his hydrospanner or was he born stupid?

Not exactly a plot hole, but rather confusing. "

I think that was more of a rhetorical, emotional response than an actual question.

 

Agreed.

 

CyHunter: I don´t understand why Luke would ask that question if he already knew the answer. Why would he be so upset?