PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Are you talking during the years of the Rule of Two? Simple, the Sith Master was never willing to risk revealing his/her existence to the Jedi Order by attempting to lure one of its members to the dark side.

Or are you talking even earlier than that? Because if so, there were numerous accounts of Jedi turning Sith before Bane implemented the Rule of Two.

 

I was referring to the events where the Sith "supposedly" became extinct. Ever since that period, nobody in the Jedi Order had fallen to the Dark Side until Count Dooku met up with PalpSidious.

 

We don't know that. We know of the "Lost 20." Jedi that willingly left the Order but didn't fall to the dark side. Until Dooku, that is. There are probably several (Aurra Sing anyone?) that fell to the dark side over the years that aren't included in Lost 20.

 

Yoda referred to "the shadow of greed". Thus, it's not a direct reference to greed itself, but to the possible connection between these things. Essentially, it's the same message that Yoda was trying to get across in TPM, and just as often rejected by Western audiences. But it's borne out by Anakin's story arc.

 

Well, Qui-Gon was talking about using the greed of others, not his own greed. It's a parallel to Rokurota using the greed of the enemy as a means of escape in The Hidden Fortress.

 

If I may answer this, greed was a very important element. Anakin's greed to retain things valuable to him. I'm not putting a moral judgment on the need, and certainly one can understand why he wants to hold on, but on the lengths he went to. Nothing is allowed to interfere with his retention of people or things.

Though he may never have consciously realized he was making a choice in some of these cases, he chose Padme's life over killing many others, chose to put his trust in Palpatine and his assurances of saving Padme, most likely would have chosen Obi-Wan over 50,000 kidnapped Togrutans if it had ever gotten to that point...

All actions to benefit his need to hold on to that which he fears to lose.

BTW, I don't mean to imply wanting to save others, or even the actions themselves are always and necessarily selfish in and of themselves. And one certainly might do an action for selfish reasons while at the same time it is the "correct" action.

 

We do agree.

I think he went to Palpatine if he went to anyone at all. He wouldn't want to burden Padme, though he may have shared some of his feelings with her.

I wonder if he thought Obi-Wan would not be so "unconditional" in discussing things. It seems to a hallmark of the Jedi that they either help by turning a question into a question or by giving out well-intentioned platitudes.

The ? to a ? approach requires a willingness to reflect on the questioner's part. I think it's a great approach. I also think Anakin didn't want to think for himself, he wanted to be told (mainly, that what he wanted to hear was what he was told. Validation, not self knowledge.)


The "platitude" approach would have worked had the Jedi said what Anakin wanted to hear. I actually think that was Palpatine's approach, only his platitudes were carefully calculated to validate Anakin. "It's only natural..." for one.

 

Maybe we should collaborate and write that!

 

I'm NOT talking about slavery, I'm talking about self-control and being a master of yourself. Throughout history, people have been letting their emotions get the better of them and they wind up doing terrible stuff. Achilles killed Hector because he was angry with him for killing his cousin and that led to the persian troops burning down the city of Troy. Rameses wanted to kill off all the Jews including Moses because he blamed him for the death of his son despite that Moses warned him that God would smite all the first-born children. Those 2 boys that went to Columbine High School end up shooting all those people because they were tired of being bullied by the very same people. Captain Ahab endangered his entire crew and himself because he wanted revenge on Moby Dick for biting off his leg. I could go on and on but my point is that the Jedi Code was created to prevent any Jedi from having attachments or else, they'd risk succumbimg to the Dark Side. If that happens, there would be hundreds of Sith Lords roaming the galaxy instead of 2. Since you keep bringing up the subject of slavery, the fact that Anakin is born a slave would lead him to have that mentality of wanting to be in control and be a master himself. Anakin never took the Jedi Code seriously because he didn't think that the rules applied to him which is why he got upset when the Council won't grant him the rank of Master and why it was easy for PalpSidious to corrupt him into becoming Darth Vader. As for Luke, he may not have been raised in the Jedi Temple (due to it being destroyed and the Jedi Order no longer exists by the time he's born) but he was given enough time with his family to learn how to emotionally seperate himself from them. Anakin was taken too young from his mother and kids that age aren't ready to seperate from their parents so ergo, he's unwilling to let go of Shmi nor Padme. Obi-wan and Yoda knew that Anakin had seperation anxiety but did nothing and they've seen the results of their inaction so they made up for that mistake by allowing Luke to be with Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

 

Well, last I heard, he was conceived by the midi-chlorians... maybe the midi-chlorians had a reason...

 

I'm not sure the priesthood would be the best choice for the Jedi order to emulate...

 

What Qui-gon was saying was that greed can be a useful tool, when all one is is greedy. Watto said that only money matters to him and it is the only thing that can affect his decisions. Shmi had pointed out that Watto and various others in Mos Espa, were known for their gambling. It was like Las Vegas, Reno and Atlantic City all rolled into one. So since he couldn't bargin with Watto and couldn't manipulate his mind, all that was left was to use Watto's greedy nature against. That's why after the race was over, Qui-gon pointed out the inevitable result of one who gambles frequently. They'll lose.

 

Right. When Qui-Gon says "greed can be a powerful ally" he isn't saying to start being greedy, but that you can use the greed of others to your advantage.

 

Yes, Luke's attachment to his father, and his fathers attachment to him saved both at the end. However the only reason they were in the position is because Anakin couldn't let go his attachments to his mother and Padme. If he had been able to do that, he and Luke aren't in that position.

What rules did Anakin think didn't apply him? I'm starting to wonder if you've seen the movies. He got married. He had children. He allowed him to get attachment to Padme to the point that he wanted to stop chasing Dooku to make sure he was ok (to which Obi-wan told him he'd be expelled from the order.....) it appears he didn't even try to seperate himself from his mother. He murdered innocent Tuskins (unless every man, woman and child in that cap was guilty - and even if they did, he still murdered them). He thought hte rules didnt apply to him, and the whole Jedi order paid for it.

Its clear you don't get the force and how it works in the star wars universe, so I'm going to get into the "thoughts anf eelings police" thing with you.

The Jedi aren't isolationist. Their temple is in the heart of coursant, they are active in politics, they have contacts and friends outside the order, they travel the galaxy, they fought a war. They force young Jedi into a father/son releationship. That view of them just plan.....wrong.

 

Or if the Jedi hadn't placed those unreasonable expectations on him in the first place, he and Luke wouldn't have been in that position.

I thought the point was that the Jedi were the ones who didn't get it, and that's why they lost. They were so afraid of feelings and attachment that when Anakin needed help they just covered their ears and shouted until he went away, and that's what ended up destroying them.

The only Jedi we see with friends outside the order is Obi-Wan. All the other Jedi just sit around in their temple all day meditating and suppressing their humanity. The way the Jedi operated was wrong. They didn't deserve to be wiped out, but it was their own weaknesses and willing blindness that allowed them to be.

 

The forced-to-extreme positions do not help the dialogue - why can't we discuss why we feel certain ways about certain things and why - I know I've gotten my views modified on occasion.

Totally opposite viewpoints and on what basis do either of you come to this opposite conclusion - movies, EU, opinion?

Maybe the truth is both viewpoints - some Jedi "go out" and some "don't."

PERSONALLY, I feel many if not most of the adult Jedi do interact with the galaxy, though of those one cannot accurately predict how many interact on a personal friendly basis. The truth is the films do NOT show us either way.

The EU does; that may or may not fit into your personal canon.

 

I tend to flip-flop on this issue. I used to believe somewhat that the Jedi being wiped out because they were stagnant is part of the balancing of the force. But general consensus and Lucas himself have stated that the Sith are the cancer, and balancing the force simply means the end of the Sith. I still however agree with those that say the Jedi needed to adapt. IMO Lucas put more thought into this than he gets credit for. For example, a matching viewpoint between Qui-Gon and OT Yoda that has been pointed out by others here (QUI-GON: "Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs." YODA:"Never his mind on where he was. What he was doing!"). Qui-Gon teaching Yoda and Obi-Wan between ROTS and ANH doesn't come out of nowhere.

Another point I'm not solid in my opinion is the subject of Mace Windu. Part of me sees him as a representation of the PT Jedis' dogmatic and stubborn ways. But I feel like Mace was kind of made the scapegoat in areas where Yoda and Obi-Wan also failed. And besides that, Vader is meant to be the bad guy. Selfishly cutting of Mace's hand to preserve his chance to save Padme isn't supposed to seem like a justified act, it's a betrayal. The final key to Anakin's turn. Mace has (ironically) just started trusting Anakin at this point; "If what you've told me is true, you will have gained my trust.", plus Mace's gesture when Anakin arrives shows he thinks Skywalker is an ally.
But Mace should have brought Anakin to arrest Palpatine, should of trusted him earlier, should have been less blind to Anakin's conflict.
Like I said, I'm not 100% on my opinion.

 

It's not so much attachment that results in the redemption of Anakin in ROTJ. It's about compassion. Attachment as Lucas defines it for the Saga is the state of being where greed enters into one's heart. They suffer an inability to let go of people and ideas, even emotions, which can be bad. Anakin's love for his mother and his wife wasn't the problem, since as he said that the Jedi are encouraged to love people. The problem is what type of love is it. Anakin's love was a conditional one. He wanted things to stay the same and couldn't accept change because he feared it. His fear for Shmi is what bothered him when he left Tatooine and what the Council could sense while they were testing him. Hence Yoda asking how he felt. This fear resurfaced when his visions of Shmi in pain began at the start of the Ansion mission and grew more intense by the time he found her in the Tusken camp. That fear was now the fear of losing his mother and of a life without her in it. When she died, the fear turned into anger and hatred for the Tusken Raiders. For taking her from him. For changing his life in a way that he did not want it to be like. This is why the Jedi wanted to sever all ties to their loved ones, once they were brought into the Temple. It had happened before and they knew it would happen again. Anakin's problems in ROTS stem from the fact that those same feelings resurfaced with Padme, but because he made a promise to himself to not let a repeat of what happened to Shmi occur, he began to go down a dark and dangerous path. That's why Yoda told him to train himself to let go of his fears and to strengthen himself. Yoda doesn't condemn him for his feelings, but warns him of the dangers in letting his darker emotions take a hold of him.

Luke, on the other hand, saved his father because he loved him. But unlike his father, Luke's love was unconditional. What this meant was that Luke could forgive his father for everything that he had done. For all the Jedi that he betrayed and killed. For killing Obi-wan. For torturing Han and Leia. For killing Biggs. For forcing Lando to betray Han. For cutting off his hand. And though he doesn't know it yet, for contributing to his mother's death. Luke can forgive him for all of this, because he still loves the man. His feelings for his father that he had prior to the duel on Cloud City have not changed. Thus when Luke spares him, he does so because he finally gets it. He understands what drove his father to the dark side and how he could follow in his footsteps. And what causes Vader to save Luke is the fact that Luke had showed him compassion. When he couldn't show it towards Tyrannus, Luke could with him. Luke showed him that the dark side was indeed wrong, but that it was not too late. For the first time in a long time, Anakin could cared about someone other than himself. When he chose to side with Sidious, he did so because losing Padme was going to affect him.

ANAKIN: "I need him . . ."

ANAKIN: "I can't live without her."

ANAKIN: "You will not take her from me."

It's all about himself and his needs, his wants and his desires. When he attacked Mace, he was thinking of himself. When Luke was being harmed, Anakin was thinking of his son.