PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

No problem. The complete veichles is a very beautiful book that nicely detail how some of the more confusing designs of star wars works. It may not be canon anymore, but i still love it

 

Complete Locations (very similar but for planets rather than vehicles) is set to be rereleased soon with The Force Awakens locations added. Maybe there'll be a Complete Vehicles newcanon rerelease? Might need a certain amount of fixing to make sure all info is fully compatible with already established newcanon info though.

 

When ROTS begins, Obi-wan and Anakin have already come out of hyperspace and disengaged from the hyperspace rings. We then see them travel a distance to first enter the battle and then begin the long trek to the Invisible Hand. The only time they would be at a disadvantage would be if they were ambushed as soon as they came out of hyperspace. But that would require knowing that they were coming and when. The film paints the picture of the Jedi timing and plotting their course to give them time necessary to exit hyperspace and bring their weapons to bear. Much like the X-Wings, the B-Wings and the ARC-170's having to take time to lock S-foils into attack position, as soon as they're ready. This is also evident in TCW. As to your second point, yes it would take time. Just as it takes time to plot a course to make the jump over a blind jump. The Falcon was at a clear disadvantage in ANH due to that.

The Federation used droids which are programmed mainly for combat. This is different from Jedi who when not engaged in war, don't need Republic Battle Cruisers. Note that during the war, they also use the cruisers as well.

 

About the Kamino hyperspace ring, and why Jango didnt just destroy it. Did Jango Fett know that Obi Wan travelled to Kamino with a hyperspace ring? If he didnt, it makes sense why he didnt search for it and destroy it.

 

He didn't destroy it bcs the movie needed Obi-Wan to get to Geonosis. In-universe however we've seen people track & detect hyperspace signals & routes. Has to be a good chance of detecting the rings right at the entrance point of a hyperspace trip. Also a smart & knowledgeable guy like Jango could easily know about Jedi starfighters & the fact that they use these rings. That all you need to do is destroy the rings & you strand the Jedi behind you. In fact, you'd think all nefarious types, enemies of the Jedi, the Trade Federation etc etc would know about this simple & devastating tactic. You see a Jedi or a Jedi starfighter, you find their hyperspace ring & take it out. That's Jedi combat 101. Another reason why I don't buy that the Jedi would use these things. There has to've been cases already where they've been destroyed.

So it's not a plot hole that Jango didn't destroy it, but it does add to the extreme & reckless level of risk for Obi-Wan to use one on this type of mission.

Right so now we have Maul's Infiltrator which was in use a full decade before the silly rings in AotC. There's Grievous' ship. Again, not much bigger than the Jedi fighters. I'd also point out that the X-Wings & Y-Wings that had built in hyperdrives 18 years after the PT were supposed to be quite old & clapped out ships. It's looking more & more unlikely that if the Jedi were going on a potentially hazardous mission...alone they'd use a ship that requires leaving their engine floating around as an easy target. If you combine this fact with the fact from the other thread, that Obi-Wan was looking to catch a killer & needed room to bring him back, his choice of ship looks terrible.

This is what I've thought. The hyperspace rings would've been a great concept for the ancient Old Republic times. It seems like tech from that age to me. You can't have a community of star systems like the Old Republic without FTL travel. So if hyperdrives are that old are we expected to believe that just in the last 20-30 years they've adapted them to smaller ships? Unlikely, especially when we know that's not the case. See Maul & Grievous' ships.

To me the point is, from a movie making pov these rings just weren't needed. What would be the problem with Obi-Wan simply jumping into hyperspace in his fighter, just as we'd seen the X-Wings do? Would anyone have complained? The practice established in the OT made perfect sense. A fighter without FTL capability stayed near a base, capital ship or was part of a convoy. Inventing some huge detachable engine that you drag around the galaxy with you on dangerous missions was a very bad idea IMO. In-universe it brings an extreme & unnecessary level of risk. So if that's the case why introduce it at all?

 

Darth Downunder you make some good points, and I agree with you that if Lucas had wanted to give Kenobi a ship with a hyperdrive, no one would have batted an eye. The issue I see, though, is that you're assuming all hyperdrives are equal--that the big drives aboard the Queen's ship or the hyperspace ring have no real advantage over the smaller drives that must be present on x-wings and y-wings (those ships, by the way, are still substantially bigger and clunkier than Obi Wan's little fighter). I think the movies don't want to clutter the story with these sorts of details, but there are some hints that ship speed does vary widely, such as the negotiations between Kenobi and Han Solo, much of which revolves around the speed of his ship. When you consider that Jedi are special agents who may need to be sent anywhere in the galaxy at a moment's notice, and that it's their supernatural reflexes that gives them an edge over adversaries, it actually makes a lot of sense to give them an ultra-maneuverable fighter that attaches to an incredibly bulky but powerful long-range hyperdrive. For a general purpose, mass-produced fighter, it would be a very bad set-up indeed, but in the specific case of the Jedi I think it makes a lot of sense.

 

Torib some good points from you too. When it comes to SW though, if a ship has a hyperdrive they can jump between star systems. It's that simple. There's never any variation shown in terms of travel times between ships. Also if the Jedi often operate as special agents, which I agree they do, the last thing they'd want is a giant calling card floating in space advertising their presence.
Don't get me wrong, these rings would have their uses. Sending short range fighters between safe & secure bases for example. Sending barges & shipping containers along trade routes. It's not the rings themselves that are the problem. It's the way they're used in the movies. For all the reasons that have been stated, I don't for a second believe they'd be used for potentially hostile missions, especially when a Jedi is operating alone. They Jedi also wouldn't use fighters that would be well known among their enemies to require these rings. That just makes them completely vulnerable.

 

Darth Downunder not sure the hyperspace situation in SW is that simple. There's the example of the weakened hyperdrive on the queen's ship in TPM, which because of its low power can only take them so far. This is an example of the strength of a hyperdrive directly affecting the maximum distance a ship can travel. Another little bit of evidence that hints at the same thing is the difference between the pre-war hyperspace ring used by Kenobi in AOTC and the one he uses in ROTS, which has had the number of engines it carries tripled(!) from two to six. As far as we can tell, these hyperspace rings are used for, well, hyperspace, not in-system travel, and the fact that they have been upgraded in this way strongly implies that there must be an advantage--in the speed or distance that they can travel through hyperspace--that justifies the expense of adding an additional four engines.

 

That's an example of a damaged & leaking hyperdrive. No examples of healthy hyperdrives providing radically different travel times. Even the freaking Death Star can apparently power up a hyperdrive & get to Yavin in quick time.

Ok but none of this changes the outrageous level of risk in using these things on hazardous solo missions. Just wouldn't happen in-universe IMO. Not when slightly bigger ships with built-in engines are a thing.

 

We still don't know how small hyperdrive engines were in that period.

Here is a good shot of Obi-Wan's fighter:



As you can see, it's barely any width up at the side, making it very nimble, but leaving little room for an engine.

The only hyperdrive engine we've ever seen in full is the one on the Queen's ship in TPM, and that definitely would not fit in Obi-Wan's ship. Or a TIE fighter for that matter, lending credence to the size argument.

Here is Darth Maul's ship:



There's plenty of room for an engine the size of the Queen's in there.

Therefore, the Jedi fighters are simply too small for a built-in hyperdrive. This isn't stupid on the Jedi's part, it's a tradeoff. A small and nimble ship, in exchange for a large, clunky engine.

You also seem to think that the jedi are stupid for using the rings. They're simply using the best technology for the job. We also see in the Clone Wars that Republic fighters also use hyperspace rings:


Again, no space for an hyperdrive engine in that narrow frame.

And they're not perfect. No one here is claiming that. In one episode of the Clone Wars, Boba Fett even destroys one of the rings to prevent a fighter from escaping (there were 2 rings present though).

 

The complaint is - why take a 1-man ship when going on a Hunt The Assassin mission in the first place.

Possibly - because it's unobtrusive. Obi-Wan was not yet prepared - because he wasn't planning on finding Jango so quickly - he was out to gather information at that point, figuring the trail was fairly "cold".

 

Yes, of course, that's all fine. That the Jedi fighters are too small can serve as a reasonable in-universe explanation. That's why this isn't a plot hole & no one has claimed that it is. However, some of us are questioning their inclusion from a film-making perspective. The X-Wing's, other Rebel fighters & most likely Vader's TIE had a hyperdrive. Before you'd even heard of hyperspace rings these Jedi starfighters could've had built-in drives too. That would be all fine & consistent. I believe not a single person would've thought to question it. So, given the absurd danger & impracticality these things pose for Obi-Wan's solo missions in the PT, & given that they still had hyperdrives in other small-medium sized ships, why bother introducing these things at all? As has been pointed out, we know that the GFFA has had FTL travel for many thousands of years. What's 20 years in relation to that?? No need to have something so clunky & primitive compared to the built-in drives of the OT.

Yes they are being "stupid". For solo missions into remote & potentially dangerous territory this is a stupid, almost suicidal choice of ship. Particularly when there are ships of the size of Maul's Infiltrator & Grievous' ship that have a built-in hyperdrive. You just wouldn't drag around a separate hyperdrive engine on that type of mission. Then your only way home isn't floating around like a sitting duck. Your enemies won't spot or detect your fighter & immediately know your engine must be parked somewhere in space.

Actually the opposite was true. Yoda said that Padme had to go into hiding "until caught this killer is". Then Obi-Wan was so confident he told Padme that she'll be back to Coruscant in "no time". So clearly he planned to continue following leads until he found & caught Jango, & he was very confident in doing so. So you'd think he would've planned for catching him. Fortunately for him he had a script-writer who knew in advance that he wouldn't succeed in catching Jango. That in fact Jango would catch him. So in the end he didn't look like an idiot for taking the wrong ship. Only for letting his target apprehend him.

 

Maul's infiltrator is never seen in battle, so it's impossible to tell its capabilities, and Grievous' ship may contain Separatist only tech and may be a prototype. Note how we never see Separatists using rings, only the republic, possibly suggesting that they have the technology for smaller engines.

We don't know how long hyperdrive has been around. Even if it has been around for centuries, something never even hinted at in the films, the tech may still not have been miniaturised to a suitable size. The Jedi fighters are the smallest fighters ever seen in the saga, so a ring makes sense due to the lack of room for an engine.

We've had sailing as a technology for millennia, but the motor boat was only invented in the late 1800s for example.

 

There's no need to argue that there can be in-universe reasons for the hyperspace rings. In the end though they were a choice by Lucasfilm. A choice that they didn't have to make. We'd already seen fighters with hyperdrives. You wouldn't have questioned them also in the PT.

Then make them a bit bigger so they can have their own hyperdrive. Simple. Also the AotC fighters look roughly comparable in size to the A-Wing or X-Wing to me. Look at just the chassis of the X-Wing. It's very small & narrow. Vader's TIE is also small.

This in-universe stuff has all been covered now. All that's left is whether we think they were a good idea to include in the movie. Looks like we've all made our opinions known.

 

I would definitely argue that the X-wings are a comparable size:


Here's one. You may notice the thick back section, with plenty of room for a sizeable engine.

Here's an A-wing:


Yes, it's a bit smaller than the X-wing. But the rear section is still a decent size, and it is 25 years since the PT.

Obi-Wan's starfighter is much thinner by comparison:

The size is also uniform, leaving no room for a large engine. The engines on the hyperdrive ring are noticeably larger than the ones on the fighter.

I still don't see why they're bad from an out-of universe perspective either. They show an evolution in the technology levels of the galaxy, similar to the evolution of Walkers from AOTC to ESB, and Star Destroyers.

 

I think the hyperdrive rings are cool. Therefore, it was a good idea to include them

 

darskpine10 assuming all of that's the case & those fighters in AotC & RotS simply can't take a hyperdrive then that should make them short-range fighters. The OT had those too. Or long range ships using hyperspace rings for peaceful missions between safe destinations. Friendly planets, star bases etc. What they should never be used for are solo missions into potentially hostile areas. Like chasing killers, criminals & terrorists to unknown & remote systems. The Jedi would have to find a more appropriate ship for that type of mission.

 

There might not be any other suitable ships at this time. We know the Jedi want fast, manoeuvrable ships, to make sure they're ready for anything. Larger ships are likely too slow, and thus unsuited for the Jedi's tasks. The first fighter we see go to hyperspace, for sure, is 25 years after the PT, plenty of time for advancement in tech.

There just aren't any reliable, large ships with in-built hyperdrives that the Jedi can use.

 

Guesswork. The people who don't have to guess are the creative team who made the PT. They could've given the Jedi any ship they like. A long range tactical ship for instance. One a bit bigger with it's own hyperdrive & room to lock up an enemy target. What a great idea that would've been for Obi-Wan's mission. Instead we see him trying to catch a criminal while flying a one-man ship & dragging a giant hyperdrive around space!

 

But they decided to go with a more interesting route by actually showing us something new in the Star Wars universe, that also shows that PT is firmly in the past of the OT, and outdated time.

And it's not guesswork. Name me a Republic fighter from the PT that clearly goes into hyperspace unaided.

 

Yet the PT seems to be more of a "golden age". Alot of the tech appears significantly superior. Would've matched quite well to have some high quality small fighters with hyperdrives. Back in the days before the Dark Times. Then we see the rougher dodgier looking ships of the OT era. Either way would've made sense in-universe.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. It's guesswork to say there's none just bcs we didn't see any.

 

Rougher and Dodgier in the OT yes, but also more technologically advanced. Compare the X-wing to the Arc fighter. The newer models have more guns, and astromech support.

The Star Destroyers are bigger and stronger. The Death Star is another example of a massive technological advancement.

The ships in the PT may be cleaner and more elegant due to the 'golden age', but they are still technologically inferior for the most part.

 

Maybe, maybe not. There's nothing definitive that says there couldn't have possibly been small fighters with hyperdrives in the PT. If there wasn't, then ok. In that case no-one in their right mind would take a small fighter on a long range dangerous solo mission. Bcs it doesn't have an engine to get you home that's secure within that ship.

If you don't agree let's agree that you don't agree & leave it at that.

 

But surely the existence of the hyperdrive rings shows clearly that no ships have hyperdrive engines that small.

But alright, let's leave it at that. I see that nothing I say will convince of the merits behind the rings' conception.

 

Like I said, ok. In that case you don't take that class of ship to remote areas of unknown space alone on a dangerous mission. It's just common sense.