main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Indeed. Space is vast.

    It may also be worth adding that, in TFA, even something as mighty as that Star Destroyer, which Kylo occupies, just sits there, above Jakku, and lets the Millennium Falcon, which the First Order was just pursuing and shooting at, completely slip by.

    But let's talk some more about how some random bounty hunter dude, in a tiny ship, decades earlier, should have easily detected a tiny ring, in low-power mode in empty space, and obviously used a missile to destroy it.
     
  2. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    Not to mention the Falcon didn't get very far as it just sits there, for what seems like forever, as Rey and Finn rejoice over each others accomplishments, and than as they try to fix the gas leak, and than still sit there as Han Solo finds them, and still sits there as the gangs find them... But... No urgency by the FO or no worries that the FO is out there...
     
  3. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    The biggest inconsistencies is Anakin is 9 in 1999 and all of a sudden in 2002 he's 19!!! WTF. Also his hair keep is changing so much and so does Obi-Wan. Also Padme goes from 14 to 28 between 1999-2005. Just a huge plot hole that ruins the films. Also how does Boba Fett go from being a bounty hunter to a kid? Also why is Palpatine still alive after ROTJ in 1983? Doesn't make sense? How is the Clone Wars a real war when I can't tell who's good or evil? The prequels should be like TFA. A war that is realistic and awesome just like my favorite Call of Duty game. **** the Pweqwills for not having arthritis Vader kill Jedi with realistic Jedi moves and not flashy skills. LAME AND UNREALISTIC. I know what I'm talking about because I have used a Kmart saber in real combat against my imagination!!!!
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You mean like the Naboo ship got past an actual "blockade" of Naboo? Also the Falcon is a ship that you know, moves. I feel sure they would've dealt with it if it was just stationary & floating in space.
    & maybe he could. That's the point, Obi-Wan was completely helpless. All he could do is hope Jango didn't fire a missile at it as he left. A Jedi is betting his mission & his only way home on this tenuous hope. We also know that ships & enemies are detected via hyperspace signatures. A hyperspace ring/engine you'd imagine could be easily detected. Esp since it's left right where the hyperspace trip had entered that system. Finally, as your novel passage pointed out, it would be common knowledge that the Jedi fighters require a ring. An enemy of the Jedi (like Jango) would know there'd be a ring floating out there as soon as they spot that type of ship. In fact if these ships were so commonly used by Jedi, as soon as they see a Jedi they'd know how simply & easily they could strand them in that system.

    What's even funnier here is that Obi-Wan knew first hand from TPM just how much of a nightmare it can be when your hyperspace drive is inoperative. What did he say to Qui-Gonn: "we could be stuck here a very long time". And then we're expected to believe he'd drag a big clumsy detachable hyperspace engine alone to an unknown region of the galaxy & leave it floating in space while trying to find a dangerous enemy??
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  5. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Here's one from ROTS that I read about on the imdb goofs page: in just a few frames, the lightsaber Obi-Wan is holding changes from his own to Anakin's.

    Here, he is holding his own:
    [​IMG]
    And just a few frames later, he is holding Anakin's:
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yeah that's badly edited. I believe there's a quick scene they cut in between that explains that. Plenty of those kinds of goofs throughout the Saga though.

    One thing TPM (& the PT) might have though is the fastest blunder in movie history. Its first one takes about 5 seconds. When the opening crawl of TPM calls Obi-Wan a Jedi Knight. The rest of the trilogy makes very clear that a Padawan is not a Knight ;)
     
    DarthCricketer and theMaestro like this.
  7. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Yeah, but they don't pursue it, like, at all. In TPM, the TF were actually shooting at the Queen's ship, and they even succeeded at disabling its shield generator and also did serious damage to its hyperdrive. They only got away thanks to a last-second save by Artoo: the same droid that helps foil the plans of the Empire (by carrying the plans of the Empire; or R2's rival, super-massive droid in the sky) in ANH. What is Kylo's excuse for just sitting there in a massive (and, presumably, modern/hi-tech) Star Destroyer; particularly since he was (supposedly) desperate to obtain the missing piece of the map, which he knew BB-8 had?


    Editing/continuity issues of that kind do, indeed, plague(is) most films. However, in SW's case, everything can be interpreted in terms of a basic structural motif like duality.

    So a change in lightsabers, particularly a flitting between Anakin and Obi-Wan's lightsabers in their own fight sequence -- "There are heroes/lightsabers on both sides" -- makes a basic poetic sense (indeed, their fight sequence is even named "Battle of the Heroes"). Anakin, in fact, in another visually symbolic structural gesture, keeps losing his lightsaber in the movie. Obi-Wan also loses his in a few situations. Note, for instance, how Grievous has confiscated their lightsabers in the opening sequence. Then the Jedi, with Artoo's help, effortlessly retrieve them. Or do they? Grievous mysteriously appears with their lightsabers again when Obi-Wan engages him on Utapau. Obi-Wan and Anakin also both drop their lightsabers over the next twenty minutes. And in another continuity goof, Palpatine wields Anakin's lightsaber in a few shots, defending himself against Mace and the Jedi in his office (that footage is cobbled from the original turn: when Anakin remained in Palpatine's office as the Jedi arrived, Palpatine, a la Grievous, took Anakin's saber -- but using the Force -- to fend off his Jedi foes).

    "He's a traitor"; "He is the traitor -- aaah!" This reflective criss-crossing keeps happening in ROTS. Picture Grievous twirling "his" lightsabers in a furious blaze of colour. Picture Anakin and Obi-Wan fighting on those tiny platforms, circling around each other, calling something the other believes in "evil". Picture their hands almost touching as they hurl "Force" at each other; but never quite. Picture the Emperor sending that pod in Yoda's direction and Yoda spinning it and sending it back. Picture the lightning "stalemate" that follows. Think of the typewriter re-feeding Jack Torrance paper in "The Shining". Evil keeps asserting itself; "Evil is everywhere". In ROTS (which begins with a "shining"), it finally asserts itself as this elemental thing, which looks, tastes, and smells virtually indistinguishable from its presumed opposite. "Good is a point of view", "Evil is everywhere". Opposing forces are locked in some ghastly embrace in ROTS; perhaps only the OT, Jar Jar, or yes, the sequel trilogy, can break or unlock this strange dance.



    Ah! That one. As I'm sure you already know, the padawan-knight-master system is an internal hierarchy. Outside the Jedi Order, we see Jedi referred to as "Jedi" and "Jedi Knights", and often addressed as "Master Jedi", by various non-Jedi characters; including the "characters" of the crawl. This actually lends some nice irony to Anakin being so resentful of being denied the rank of "Master" in ROTS. Nobody outside the Jedi Order really cares. Star Wars: The Force, the Jedi, and office politics*.

    *The office, these days, of course, has turned into the Internet.
     
  8. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    I'd say his excuse is he had just one ship as opposed to a large scale blockade in the case of TPM & a large fleet in the case of Hoth. In ANH the Falcon seemed to exit Tatooine right into the path of that one SD. What frightful bad luck. In TFA the FO sent forces to the surface to retrieve the droid. They could hardly blockade the whole planet with their one SD. And they weren't expecting "the droid to steal a ship". Still they did trace the Falcon to Maz's planet. Better get back to the Prequels...
    Except the crawl isn't from the pov of some schlub living in a GFFA. It's from the storyteller to us as the audience. So you'd think it would be accurate. However, since we don't want a ponderous & overly detailed opening crawl I agree that this is a non-issue.
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  9. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Yeah, that's reasonable -- but then, the question becomes, why just the one ship? Both Snoke and Kylo had their own interest in the map. They could have sent a few more ships, surely, and made sure they did the job right. This is a map to Luke Skywalker, the last of the known Jedi, we're talking about! Not George Jones. All they did is send about three stormtroopers and three TIE Fighters to the surface. It's kind of ridiculous. We know they had a lot more troops and TIEs than that because we watch Finn and Poe escape, and we see all those troopers and TIEs just sitting in a docking bay (waaaaassting tiiii-iiiii-iiime). What else could be more pressing for The First Order, once they're at Jakku, with that lone Star Destroyer, than maximizing the resources they have? And, again, why not more Star Destroyers? Or some other bulky ships that could help create a net and stop a piddly old freighter escaping with comical ease? At face value, based on the rules we know, it makes no sense whatsoever.


    Is that what you're going with?


    True, they traced the Falcon. But... HOW? Seems they relied upon those gangs. And even relying on those gangs meant relying on Han being dumb enough to have BB-8 at his side for no discernible reason; such that one of the gang members could identify him and then radio back (after luckily not being shot or eaten).

    And those forces they sent down -- ha! Like I said above, it was all of about three stormtroopers, accompanied by three TIEs. And, before you know it, The First Order starts being really heavy-handed and only narrowly avoids killing Finn, Rey, and BB-8; which would certainly have frustrated Kylo's plans. There wouldn't have been a Star Destroyer big enough to hack into pieces and contain his temper tantrum.

    And, yes, the prequels, your favourite topic. Look, I know this should be about the prequels, but it links in to some of the criticisms you've just been making. After all, you do attack alleged "holes" and "inconsistencies" from numerous angles; so expect someone to throw up another Star Wars movie every once in a while -- particularly given your lengthy defence of TFA on this very board.



    But WHO is the author/narrator of the crawls?

    And the crawls aren't accurate. They use dramatic, inflammatory language: "War!", "The greedy Trade Federation", "sinister agents", "dreaded Imperial starfleet", "fiendish droid leader", "vile gangster", etc. Even when they describe nominally peaceful events, they sound violent: "the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights" (shades of Order 66).

    Plus, the wording in the TPM crawl clearly echoes Obi-Wan's history lesson to Luke:

    "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."
    "...two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy..."

    And as if to cement this unsubtle, repetitious quality of the crawls, a protocol droid -- a shiny "cousin" of C-3PO -- casually tells Nute and Rune, "The ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe." In fact, from this point-of-view, everything in Star Wars is predicated on a failure to grasp or communicate nuance. In the "telling" of something, detail is normally lost. The very things which people say are actual faults are no faults at all!
     
    Andy Wylde, Deliveranze and Torib like this.
  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    How many SD's do you need to retrieve one map from an old man? How many do the FO even have? I don't know. When going to confront the old guy how could they project forward & account for a freighter trying to leave the planet? Better to just send a squad of troops down to that village. The droid getting on the Falcon & fleeing was unforeseen. That's why it worked, temporarily.

    Anyway before we get a tap on the shoulder for delving too deep into off topic territory, feel free to tag me in the TFA section to continue this or any other topic.
    The crawls are accurate, they just editorialize a bit. With quite accurate labels. The Jedi Knight thing is the only error as far as I know. Like I said, it's a reasonable movie convenience. Still if it had've said "The Chancellor has secretly dispatched a Jedi Knight & his apprentice..." that would've worked just as well. Perhaps better even.
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  11. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Well, yes, and no. Sending one SD -- a questionable move, but hardly the worst decision. It's more, after that, every decision the FO takes around Jakku seems more questionable than the last.

    I agree, however, about ceasing TFA discussion here. I've got that off my chest, so let's drop it and return to the main attraction.


    By your own metric, you're still incorrect. Qui-Gon is a Jedi Master in the film; so the crawl should read, "The Chancellor has secretly dispatched a Jedi Master and his apprentice." But now, I hope you can grasp, it is really drifting from the impactful, concise elegance of "...two Jedi Knights".

    Moreover, Lucas repeats the phrasing in the ROTS crawl, by having the last part read, "two Jedi Knights lead a desperate mission to rescue the captive Chancellor." Another chiastic link between TPM, the start of the story, and ROTS, the end.

    I will also repeat that a lack of precise understanding forms a critical part of the narrative of the movies. For instance, Anakin interrogates Qui-Gon on Tatooine, "You're a Jedi Knight, aren't you?" And in ROTS, once more, there is an echo on Coruscant: "You're the Sith Lord!" In both cases, Anakin's "masters" neither confirm nor deny his hasty attempt at labelling them.

    One underlying message is to be wary of labels:

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
    "I'm looking for a great warrior" ... "Jedi Master."
    "Don't you wonder why they won't make you a Jedi Master?"

    (Particularly, as that last line suggests, when your own identity becomes attached to worldly things and desperate for external validation >>> the moral dimensions of this artwork are vast!)
     
  12. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    nah - to both of you. :) It should have read, " "The Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi..."
     
  13. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    But "Knights" fits the "medieval" aspect of the movies better.

    It also hints more at strategy; and thus also fits the Machiavellian, chess-like political framework of the prequels better.

    ;) :-B
     
  14. Torib

    Torib Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Okay, here's one I thought of. At the beginning of TPM the Jedi are met just outside the hangar and led to the nearby conference room. Then after the gas attack they quickly make their way to the bridge, which almost certainly must be in the spherical part of the trade federation ship, right? But there's no visible hangars in that section, not any large enough to fit the corvette-sized republic ship (it's quite a large ship, far larger than a shuttle). The only hangars we know of that are big enough to fit that ship are in the wings of the federation ship, but then to get to the bridge the Jedi would've had to travel on foot the entire circuitous length of the wing to get to the bridge, well over a mile, easily.
     
  15. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    [​IMG]
    Ahem...I mean.....maybe Nute Gunray had TC-14 lead them to a conference room that was really far away from their hangar in order to stall for more time. Or maybe they managed to traverse that large distance with their super speed as they were running away from the Droidekas.
     
    Torib likes this.
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    On the knights issue...

    LUKE: "I'm Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and friend of Captain Solo."

    Except Luke isn't a Jedi Knight, but a Jedi Padawan Learner.

    LUKE: "Then I am a Jedi."

    YODA: "No."

    So, I guess that doesn't count either.
     
  17. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Yes, darth-sinister. There are a number of examples.

    "Jedi Knight" is both a flinty, formalistic term, and is very "Star Wars".

    Perfectly fits the ancient, chivalrous fantasy world.

    Also, "knight" is derived from an older word meaning "boy", which makes it kind of hilarious, too.

    "I don't think you boys can help. I must go alone."
     
    Andy Wylde and Torib like this.
  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Luke was exaggerating to intimidate Jabba. All fits in with his language, the subtle threats in his message & the intimidating 12ft high Luke hologram that R2 projected. What would expect him to say, "I'm Luke Skywalker, Jedi student who hopes to be a Knight some day..." o_O. Since he was deliberately exaggerating & bargaining this doesn't count as an inconsistency.
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  19. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Well, yeah. But it's also just "the thing" to say. Wanna intimidate somebody, say you're a Jedi Knight. Just as TC-14 casually tells his bosses, "The ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe", and Rune Haako asks Nute Gunray, "Have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before?" It's a term that evokes the Knights Templar and Samurai -- powerful warriors with their own code; secret clans with secret rituals whose members are prepared to give their lives for a greater good. And in Star Wars, these warriors come equipped with the Force. The idea is, Jedi Knights have a reputation, and you don't want to incur their upset.
     
    Deliveranze and CT-867-5309 like this.
  20. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Correct but again, the crawl isn't a place for casual banter among citizens. It's information from the storyteller to the audience. Hardly matters though, I just wanted to say that Luke's message doesn't add weight to either side of the discussion IMO. If people in a GFFA were strictly accurate in their terminology I'd still expect him to exaggerate in that instance.
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  21. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Cryo is ridiculously right on this.

    There's a simple but effective test for this.

    Just say it. Jedi Knight.


    To put it another way

    You can type this ****, but you can't say it.
     
  22. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Thank you, CT.

    I think DD is just playing with us, anyway.
     
  23. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    Same way Luke drags Anakin all the way from the Palp's tower at the north pole of DS2 to a hanger at its equator.
     
    Andy Wylde and darkspine10 like this.
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    I think an elevator is the answer in both scenarios.

    Here's one. Why did Qui-Gon decide that he & Obi-Wan should stow aboard separate ships? Why not stick together? The ships could've landed on complete opposite sides of the planet, which would make it very difficult to reach each other again. Turns out they conveniently landed within quick running distance. Which was handy but made the splitting up gambit completely pointless.

    Also why would the Federation land huge vehicles & troops out in the middle of nowhere among the swamps? They only wanted to occupy the Naboo cities to force the treaty. According to Boss Nass the Naboo lived on the other side of the planet. This is like the US landing their forces in Argentina to invade Iraq.
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  25. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    We don't know that all of the MTT's went directly to Theed. Perhaps some went to every major city on Naboo. But I agree, it's not really shown.

    I guess with the stowing aboard different ships, there doesn't seem to be much room in the landers or MTT's, so maybe it was a space concern? Or just that 1 person is better at hiding than 2? Or if one of them is discovered the other can make their way to Theed?
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.