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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Considering how having dreams of his mothers ended, him being desperate to save Padme is perfectly in line with this.

    Anakin Skywalker: Well, I should be! Someday I will be. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying! It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's jealous! He's holding me back!
    And considering

    and this

    Anakin Skywalker: "I wasn't strong enough to save you, Mom. I wasn't strong enough. But I promise I won't fail again. I miss you...so much."

     
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  2. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    DarthDownUnder
    well aren't you in the audience ? what did you think Mace meant ? to me it's just another way of saying find out anything you can about him , confirm that he's a Sith , and anything else .

    I'll come back to this .

    but being a Sith is pretty much the vital part of his identity , plus I think you're just playing semantics , "investigate the dark warrior " is basically the same as "discover his identity " .

    his identity is : he's a Sith , what's he like ? is he the master or apprentice ? who is his master ?
    Now if they'd found all that out then they would have unravelled the mystery of the Sith , but they only got so far .

    I don't know what your complaint is , this is episode one , the mystery is still to be revealed .
    .
     
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  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The issue is, some argue that Mace's words "Go with the Queen to Naboo & discover the identity of this dark warrior. This is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith"

    Means ONLY, is he a sith, yes or no? Not his name, not who he works with or anything like that..

    DD is arguing, and I agree, that ONLY answering the question, is Maul a Sith, would not really be the clue the Jedi need to unravel the mystery of the sith.
    Unless the mystery is ONLY "Are the Sith back?"
    If so, then the second half of the sentence is redundant.
    "Find out if Maul is a Sith because that will be the clue we need to unravel the mystery of is Maul a Sith."
    This sentence makes not much sense.

    I argue that the Jedi wanted more then just "Is Maul a Sith?" They wanted his name, who he works with, what their plans are etc.
    So in that regard, the mission was not very successful. All they learned was what they had already been told, that Maul is a Sith.

    However, as some here argue, that the mission was ONLY about getting an answer to the question, "Is Maul a Sith, yes or no?"
    Then the mission was a total success.

    I think that the Jedi would have wanted to capture Maul so they could question him. But if so then that begs the question why more Jedi were not sent. Capturing a deadly enemy is harder than simply killing one.
    So in the end the Jedi didn't really find out anything about Maul's identity, they have only made up their mind to believe what Qui-Gon told them earlier, that he was a sith.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I really don't think anybody in the audience was confused about this whole "discover the identity of the Queen's attacker" business except a couple of people posting in this thread (who, spoiler alert, probably weren't actually confused either).
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin believes that the impossible is the only solution, which it turns out it does since she dies of a broken heart and has nothing medically wrong with her, because the Force is power and he himself believes that he should be all powerful. He believes that the Force is the answer to everything, which has to do with his Jedi training, the twisted teachings of Palpatine and his own strong connection to the Force. After all, he exists without a father involved in his creation. He is proof that the Force can do anything. He truly, honestly believes that the Force is the solution here. He believes that when he found Shmi, he should have been strong enough to will her to live and he believes it to be true with Padme.

    Think of it like this; you have someone who believes in the power of prayer and that it can heal all wounds. So when someone survives beyond the norm and all that was left is the power of prayer, it is deemed a miracle, when there is a recovery. In this case, it is along those same lines.

    Because he has not father and he's been screwed with by Palpatine for a dozen years.

    In the micro series, yes, but that was also an error since Lucas had already decided that Grievous shouldn't be a big, bad fighter. The cartoon wound up going with the idea of Grievous being a near unstoppable fighter. In the CG series, not so much. When he killed Nahdar Vebb, he shoots him with his blaster that he uses on Obi-wan later on, because he cannot beat him in a straight up duel. He brings him in close then uses his blaster. And Adi Gallia's actual defeat was not shown on screen. The last we see of her she is fighting Grievous who kicks her and the next time she's seen, she's in binders. The rest of the time he is shown being unable to defeat Obi-wan, Kit Fisto and Eeth Koth on his own.



    It's not redundant and there is no mistake. Discovering his identity does not require Maul to say, "My name is Darth Maul. You killed my predecessors, prepare to die."


    More like complaining to complain.
     
  6. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Quite.

    The mental gymnastics on display here to try to make something that was exceedingly clear on first viewing and has remained so in subsequent viewings over the years is truly astonishing.

    It was so clear that I never thought about it much and people who I know who don't like the prequels have never ever brought it up. They bring all sorts of things up that bother them and those are major character and story points they don't like but the supposed "plot holes" talked about here are not one of them.

    Talking about it here only makes more and more sense of the underlying storytelling going on. I can appreciate using the "it's not (said) in the movies" tactic. I think that can work well in some respects. I think that should largely be employed for bigger issues rather than smaller ones like:

    Why did Qui-Gon take Anakin with him?
    How does Palpatine get to his secret lair?
    Why didn't they send more Jedi to Naboo?
    How was Obi-Wan going to take Jango with him?

    I mean if someone wants to ask them OK but the answers to those questions are not exactly penetrating and don't have the impact like these questions:

    Why did the Jedi accept the Clone army?
    Are the Jedi Corrupt?
    Did Anakin killing the younglings effect your perception of him?
    Did Anakin care that the Clone war was a lie?
     
  7. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Exactly. Unlike with his mother though, where he just has dreams about her dying & being in pain, here he knows when Padme dies. During childbirth, & crucially with Obi-Wan involved. So what that leaves is deciding the best plan that gives her the best chance to survive the upcoming birth. Avoiding the situation he sees in his dream. The one where Padme is frantic & Obi-Wan is helping her.
    Nah. What happened is that he didn't remove Padme from the situation. He left her on Coruscant. He didn't know where Obi-Wan was. In fact he knew Obi-Wan had been visiting Padme in private while she was visibly pregnant. This should've been a huge red flag given his dreams. Padme would've been completely fine had he followed her idea of getting away early in the movie & having their kid in peace. Let's put it another way. If he'd gotten to his mother before she was captured & while she was still fine would he need to learn some Dark Side spell to save her? No, he'd just need to keep her from physical harm. He sees Padme die during the delivery with Obi-Wan present. Which clearly implies some kind of accident/dangerous situation. Yet Anakin has the advantage this time of being with Padme before that. While she's completely healthy. Any half-intelligent person would simply take his wife far away from any potential conflict or accident. Away from other Jedi including Obi-Wan & then have the baby in safety. Under the best medical supervision. This was not only the obvious best decision, the movie later confirms that all would've been ok. No broken heart related fatality would've resulted. Anakin's entire fall was based on astonishing stupidity. Which I think was a lazy choice. I guess it would've taken far more thought, planning & writing ability to come up with a scenario where such an ingenious ruse is perpetrated on Anakin that he's believably fooled, but still maintains integrity as an intelligent person.
    It's very simple. If you had someone watch TPM for the first time & you paused the movie after Mace gives Qui-Gon this mission: "Go with the Queen to Naboo & discover the identity of this dark warrior. This is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith"

    If you then asked him/her what that means, they'd say that it's obvious: the Jedi have been tasked with finding out Maul's identity. Which is the clue they need to determine whether the Sith have returned. Then you asked them to keep this plot point in mind & you'll get back to it at the end. Near the end of the movie, the very next line they hear from Mace is this: "There is no doubt, the mysterious warrior was a Sith". That viewer, having paid attention would probably wonder why the original instruction was given. Since it wasn't used in any way & wasn't raised again in the movie. When you ask him how Mace is now so sure that Maul was a Sith he wouldn't know. He'd be left to guess & speculate, as you guys are doing. What was earlier stated as a "needed clue" was disregarded & forgotten by the characters, & by the scriptwriter.
     
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  8. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    no , Mace said discovering his identity would be the clue needed to unravel the mystery of the sith .
     
  9. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Correct & what's the mystery of the Sith? It's whether they've returned or not. That's what they'd been discussing & wondering. What else would Maul's identity be a clue towards?
     
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  10. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    well that's part of it but obviously there's a lot more to be revealed about the sith yet .

    you know - I have no idea what you're disagreeing with me about at this point
     
  11. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Check out your second last post. The one that begins with "no". You disagreed with me about something. Still not sure what.
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    You're still not getting it. Anakin doesn't believe going away anywhere will save her. He doesn't believe staying in a hospital will save her. Nothing can save her except the Force and his ability to stop people from dying. She is in a hospital and she dies just as he saw her die...from a broken heart. Being on Polisa Massa or Coruscant wouldn't stop her from dying. He is the cause of her death. His obsession to hold onto her lead to a self-fulling prophecy. He just doesn't see it. And even if Anakin could have gotten to Shmi in time, it isn't enough for him. He wanted to will her back to life right then and there, but couldn't. That's why he says, "I promise you, I will even learn to stop people from dying." Her death was a blow to his ego, because he believed that he was all powerful and that he could fix any problem. But he cannot fix people from dying. And sooner or later, she will die because people die. And Anakin is afraid of death. Deeply afraid.

    He isn't stupid to think that the Force can stop death, when it can create life. He himself is proof of that.



    No, the person would say what I've been saying. That they realized that he was a Sith Lord because he killed a Jedi and almost killed another. There is no speculation. You're arguing semantics, trying to yell, plot hole where there is none. We get it. You dislike the PT. Move on.
     
  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Actually I got that the first time I saw the movie. You keep repeating what Anakin believed. I know that. I'm saying was what he believed well established in the movies. Was it justified given the previous history with his mother. I'm saying absolutely not. If you look at AotC you could just as easily interpret his desire to stop people from dying & to save those he loves as meaning he wants to get better at seeing the future. So he can intervene more effectively than he did with Shmi. With her he only had dreams about her suffering & dying. He didn't get any indication of when or how. So he went to her when he could & he was too late. Perhaps he did grow in his ability bcs with Padme he saw more detail. He knew she would die in childbirth & that Obi-Wan would be with her. Which should make it far easier to avoid. You keep talking about the self-fulfilling prophecy. It was only fulfilled bcs Anakin went down the absurd path of trying to learn an evil spell that had no guarantee of even being achieved. Rather than simply changing the course of his dream & getting Padme far away from the Jedi & Obi-Wan. His vision clearly pointed to an accident situation & an emergency birth. No other explanation for Obi-Wan being there. This comes down to another writing issue. By having Anakin learn about these specifics a far more obvious route was presented to him. It makes him look very foolish for not following it. Whereas if Lucas had kept it more vague & uncertain, as with Shmi his actions would make more sense. If he believed Padme would die but he didn't know when or how. Then he wouldn't know what to do, & Palpatine's offer would be more tempting & could be a reasonable last resort. Given that he begins killing people including kids based on Palps' flimsy offer, this just adds another weakness to Anakin's turn. Bcs killing everyone was not a last resort. In fact he had a far better & simpler option available. One that even his wife suggested to him.
    That's exactly what that is: speculation. There's no mention of it in the movie. In fact it's very unlikely speculation IMO. I could speculate that they recovered Maul's body, examined it & sensed that he was a Sith. I mean why would they leave his body there when they could find valuable clues from it? Or I could speculate that they searched Maul's ship & found evidence there. Who knows?? No one, especially not the viewer. One thing's for sure, the specific mission/clue that Qui-Gon was tasked with discovering was a complete waste of dialogue. It went nowhere.
    I haven't called this a plothole. It doesn't qualify as one. It's just poor writing. Stating a clue was needed to discover something & then discovering it anyway without that clue, & without any further explanation.
     
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  14. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2013
    You learn something every day.

    This is one more than obvious example of poor writing in the PT, I don't know how I missed it.

    I thought that, for example, when Leia, desperate to find her brother, sends a girl she just met to his location for no reason, thus undermining the whole search for Luke and her desparation project in the movie, is an example of poor writing, but it's not. This is.

    Oh, well... [face_dunno]
     
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Finding Luke's location and making contact with him are two separate matters.

    He may hiding or he may be waiting for someone, but he's definitely not waiting for his sister to come and pick him up, that's for sure.

    The special circumstances that have suddenly propelled Rey into Leia's/Han's/Ren's sphere make her a valid envoy.
     
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Did we just get sucked through a cyberspace wormhole & emerged in the TFA thread? Any relevance to that observation, or it just good old fashioned deflecting?
     
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  18. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    You just perfectly summarised what happened in the film, and proved that there is no inconsistency. They succesfully identified Maul as the clue they needed to unravel the mystery of the Sith's return, confirming that they indeed had returned.
     
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    So when Mace said "Go with the Queen to Naboo & discover the identity of this dark warrior. This is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith" what he was saying was "Go with the Queen too Naboo & discover it his dark warrior is a Sith. This is the clue we need to discover if he is a a Sith."


    The "mystery of the Sith" cannot be if they had returned. There was no mystery, because they were thought to be extinct. If they were thought to maybe be in hiding then it would be correctly known as mystery what happened to them. Not presumed that they are extinct.

    It's only a mystery if Maul is a confirmed Sith in spite of them being extinct. Concluding that Maul was a Sith did not clear up any mysteries. Not one bit.

    Either the writing is poor or the Jedi themselves can't string coherent sentences and conversations together.
     
  20. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    Yes, that is basically what he was saying, and they accomplished that goal. Perhaps they would have preferred to try and question him for more information, but Obi-Wan had to kill him to save his life. Still, they were able to identify him as a Sith.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    So when a member of the Jedi council talks about going to find a clue about something, they actually mean finding the answer itself, not the clue.

    Or in their peculiar grasp of the English language, instead of a clue or clues providing a step towards reaching a conclusion, a clue and a solution/conclusion are one and the same thing. [​IMG]
     
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  22. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    There are still questions to be answered. And really, you're just splitting hairs at this point. You're stuck in semantics. The Council is still sceptical if it can be a Sith. They can't see through their own arrogance to admit that the Sith could have returned without them knowing, and are acting condescendingly towards Qui-Gon's observations.
     
  23. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Creative in-universe explanations aside, what you can't excuse is the bad writing here.
     
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  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    So the Jedi, or rather Mace, refuses to acknowledge the Sith's possible non-extinction but calls it a mystery in the same breath.

    I realise it's important for the Jedi response to be somewhat compromised for dramatic tension.

    But, collectively, their response shouldn't be so perverse and obtuse. A lifetime of study and listening to the force should prevent them from such possessiveness and protectiveness of the clarity of their own intuition and of the known fact (as it presented in AOTC, that existence of Sith prevents detection of Sith, most of the time).

    Instead of the Jedi bearing the flaws that any large institution has and where small fissures can worsen into giant cracks in their effectiveness. But this kind of double-speak and condescension told me then that the Jedi are asking for it.
     
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  25. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    So your problem is the way the line is phrased, but you surely understand the intention behind it. I can agree that dialogue isn't Lucas' strongest suit, just as he has himself admitted.
     
  26. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Intuiting what the artists intentions were for the text, in spit of the actual text, is not the audience's job.

    Intuiting the subtext is the audience's job. But its value is decreased by carelessly obtuse text.

    It's one thing for Mace to get this words minced up. It's another thing for everyone else involved to ignore it or accept it.
     
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  27. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Oh, I just love all that unravelling the mystery of the Sith thing in the PT.

    Especially in TPM.

    George is such a great screenwriter. ^:)^