PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. Ancient Whills Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2011
    star 5
    "Hard to see the dark side is." They've been back for a while at least since it's been heavily-implied that Palpatine killed his master in his sleep. They did plan to investigate but Maul deciding to reveal himself made things easier for the Jedi to be absolutely certain of the Sith's return.
  2. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But Padme is going back to Naboo, where there is a big TF army.
    Unless her plan is to surrender immediately, the TF will either try to capture or kill her.
    Meaning there WILL be a fight when they get there. So the TF army is something that they will have to deal with.
    Plus they offer no explanation as to how they will deal with the blockade.
    Remember that blockad shot up their ship pretty badly and now they can't escape using hyperspace.
    And as far as they know,the blockade is still there.
    Yet it apparently is of no concern.

    Except this warrior is clearly working with the TF so that means he can pull on all the forces the TF have on Naboo. Which are a lot.
    Do the Jedi assume that this person they suspect is a sith will be sporting enough to fight the Jedi on his own and not unleash a droid army on them?
    The Sith are bad guys after all, why would the Jedi assume that they fight with honor?

    And this also ignores the likely possibility that there had been fighting once they arrive on Naboo and one Jedi had been killed or injured.

    If during WW2, the allies sent a team to kidnap Hitler, the German army and the guards around Hitler are kind of hard to ignore.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes but is that gap JUST, "Is he a Sith?" Or is it more than that?
    If the former then Mace says "We have a mystery about if this guy is a sith so go to Naboo and find out if he is a stih and then we can use that to unravel the mystery of if he is a sith."
    Seems a very convoluted way to say, "Go to Naboo and find out if he is a sith or not."

    If the latter, which makes more sense, then the Jedi want a bit more than just "Is he a sith?"
    They want name, who he works with, how the sith have survived and stayed hidden, their plans etc.

    Bye for now.
    Mr "Insert-Name-Here."
  3. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    Maul revealing himself did not make anything easier for the council. He revealed himself on Tatooine. The Sith were extinct and the Jedi did not sense otherwise. If there had been some sense that something was up, like an imbalance in the force, but which the Jedi could not define, then reports of Qui Gon's eno****er with Maul on Tatooine would heve made it easier for the Jedi to explain what their intuituion tells them.

    But those are not the terms provided by the Jedi. They were certain the Sith were extinct. Their sense told them there was no change to that status. The use of the dark side and the fighting technique and prowess shown by the warrior was enough to convince Master Qui Gon that he was a Sith. Qui Gon's first hand evidence was simply ignored because it didn't occur to the council already that such an occurence was possible. It was simply a case of not wanting to seem foolish twice that prompted the Jedi to accept the evidence that Qui Gon had already provided, without the investigation and without discovering the warrior's identity that they had previously said was necessary to unravelling the "mystery".
  4. Ancient Whills Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2011
    star 5
    I assume killing a Jedi master in a lightsaber duel as Obi-Wan must have told them is what finally convinced them. Not anyone can kill a Jedi master and wield a red lightsaber. Ki-Adi-Mundi is also the only one who believed the Sith were extinct, Yoda and mace Windu were skeptical but not as categorical, they just needed more proof. You can say this is proof of the arrogance of the Jedi Yoda mentioned.
    Last edited by Ancient Whills, Nov 12, 2017
  5. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    When Anakin scoffed at the idea of Qui Gon having killed a Jedi and taken his laser sword, Qui Gon ruefully dismisses such confidence in a Jedi's abilities. Qui Gon does not consider a Jedi being killed and dispossessed to be so fanciful. And he's not talking about by a Sith with a saber either.

    He's a council member in the council chamber speaking about what the Jedi believe. If it's just his personal belief then it's the rest of the members duty to speak up and not allow his own notions to be the only expressed position. Or rather, it's the writer's duty to inform that audience if Ki is a loose canon speaking for himself. But he doesn't because its intention is to show the council's attitude.

    Mace and Yoda's proposals are based on the beliefs expressed by all of them in that session (particularly the unchallenged position described by Ki). It makes it even more perplexing if Yoda and the council are happy to talk about their own arrogance in the abstract and take no responsibility for their actions made in except a belated "Failed I have."
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  6. heels1785 JCC/PT/New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2003
    star 7
    Qui-Gon dismisses immortality when Anakin scoffs at his teasing.

    There is absolutely no implication in that dialogue as to what or whom Qui-Gon actually thinks can kill a Jedi. Just his acknowledgment that he can, in fact, die.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    He doesn't see that much. He even says that he doesn't see all of what happens. So he has no idea about what happens, when, where or how it will happen.

    Doesn't matter. She's dead now and that is what counts and the fact is that he feels that he could have kept her from dying, not because he couldn't figure it out sooner, but that he couldn't will her to live. That haunts him more than not being there sooner.

    But he also had responsibilities that kept him busy. He has chosen to stay and fulfill those duties.

    No, he doesn't. He doesn't know when this is. It could be four months, four days or four hours from now. He is totally in the dark here.

    She's going to die despite being in a hospital. Despite medical science. Going away isn't going to change that. He has to stop it before it happens. It could be that she dies while they're on Naboo and in the hospital there. What then?

    I'm sorry, when did we see Luke build his Lightsaber in ROTJ? For all we know, he could have bought one off of e-Bay for $9.99.

    I'm making a point that would be sufficient to make their conclusion. You're the one who is arguing that Maul needs to identify himself like he's a Mouseketeer, in order to determine if he's a Sith.

    Qui-gon assumes that it is a Sith only because he believes Anakin is the Chosen One and the two were interlinked, according to the prophecy. Since the Council does not believe that either one is who Qui-gon says that they are, they need to verify things first. Until then, for all they know, Maul is a wannabe.

    The Council believes that Padme has a plan to raise an army of her own. Possibly with those who haven't been captured and use them to fight. The role of the two Jedi is to protect her, but also keep an eye out for the alleged Sith Lord.

    The mystery is who is this attacker: is he a Sith or some wannabe? Is he connected to the Federation or not? If he is a Sith, how did he come to be this way?

    It's implicit that they capture and question him, not just kill him.

    That's why Yoda and Palpatine says that arrogance blinds the Jedi Order.

    They don't need his name to know that he is a Sith, based on his actions. Even Obi-wan being able to take him out isn't an issue. It is the mere fact that Maul demonstrated a lot of other traits of a Sith, that does it.

    He acknowledges that bounty hunters, pirates and Mandalorian warriors can kill them with blasters. But using a Lightsaber, no. Can't happen.









    Only with help can someone use such a weapon against a Jedi and win. Grievous had help and even used a blaster to kill Veeb.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Nov 13, 2017
  8. Darth Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 6
    Negative. He knows it happens during the birth & he knows that Obi-Wan is present. These are HUGE facts that give him the ability to avoid the situation he sees in his visions. It would be like him seeing that Sandpeople will capture Shmi, & that right now she is completely fine. What to do? (A) Waste time learning evil immortality spells that may or may not even work, or (B) Get her the hell away from the situation? With Padme, unlike his mother he's actually with her & can take her anywhere. Even just light years away from the Jedi & Obi-Wan changes the outcome in his visions. You're right, stupid idea. Better to start killing infants.
    No, bcs Obi-Wan is not likely to hang out in Naboo hospitals. Obi-Wan's presence in his vision was a vital clue RE the emergency situation he needed to avoid.
    Not me, Mace Windu, (& also George Lucas) stated that. It's in the script. This is primarily a writing issue. As has been stated repeatedly, yet you're still fixated on repeating your trusty Maul's skillz theory.
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  9. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    why would taking her away from Kenobi stop her dying ? She dies during childbirth , and wherever she goes she's gonna have that baby .
  10. AndyLGR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2014
    star 4
    Not necessarily. Was the ridiculous reason for her death down to the childbirth itself or because of Anakins actions?
    Last edited by AndyLGR, Nov 14, 2017
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  11. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    not sure what you're disagreeing with me about there
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    In reality, it was because Anakin's actions broke her heart and killed her. But how would Anakin know that? If he had the wisdom to understand that acting on visions of the future often turned them into self-fulfilling prophecies, then the whole mess would have been avoided. But of course he doesn't have that wisdom, that's the whole point, that's why he falls to the dark side.

    Why do people constantly act like Anakin making the wrong decision is some sort of plot hole? Why doesn't anyone ever look at the OT and go "Hey Vader you bonehead, you're a murderous psychopath in a scary death mask and a black villainous cloak serving an evil totalitarian empire--have you maybe ever considered other options?"
  13. AndyLGR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2014
    star 4
    I took it that Anakins actions is what ultimately killed her, not the act of childbirth. Were you saying she was going to die anyway because of the childbirth?
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  14. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    He was clearly talking about from Anakin's perspective. Come on, now.
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  15. Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2015
    star 4
    Shh, don't mention the OT, or they will get their panties in a bunch and use a cop out like "This is the PT section, don't talk about the OT".
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  16. Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2015
    star 4
    dp
    Last edited by Seeker Of The Whills, Nov 14, 2017
  17. AndyLGR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2014
    star 4
    Not so clear. It was either the posters own view or the point of view of Anakin.
  18. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    well I was talking about Anakin's vision which obviously is from his 'pov' .
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    He doesn't know where she dies. She could die on Naboo for all he knows. He doesn't know how soon it is that she will die. As to Obi-wan, he's on Utapau. He might not be back. He might die, or he might still be chasing Grievous. So he doesn't know why Obi-wan is there. And even if she is on Naboo, he has to come back to the Temple and continue with his mission to keep tabs on Palpatine, which in turn means that he will still be seduced to the dark side. He's not going to quit the Jedi Order. If he didn't after Ahsoka quit, he's not going to do it now.

    The identity of the warrior being a Sith is established with the Battle of Naboo. Knowing his name is Darth Maul isn't that important in determining that. Thus the line is not a writing issue.

    Right, but Anakin doesn't know that. What causes her death is unknown to him, but what he does know is that she dies and nothing can stop that. Being in a hospital isn't going to change that. The only thing that can is learning to stop being from dying via the Force. That's why he goes to Yoda, hoping that the Grand Master will tell him that death can be cheated.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Nov 14, 2017
  20. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 5
    Exactly. This is very clearly the point being made. Hence the Yoda scene then after that the many Palpatine scenes.

    This is the crux point of all of these things.

    For someone like myself Anakin making wrong decisions is the character's story. For those who want him to act outside of that story and become some philosophical logician who is breaking down all things that he should do to avoid it is completely at odds with the story as presented.

    Once again it comes down to the basics.

    Do you accept the story Lucas is telling and asking yourself what is he saying or fighting the story because you want it to be something else?
  21. Darth Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 6
    In that case you're back to saying the command: "Go with the Queen to Naboo and discover the identity of this dark warrior. This is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith"

    Was meant to translate as "discover if this warrior is a Sith so we can unravel the mystery of the Sith". & you say there's no writing issue here o_O
    He doesn't see that she dies because of childbirth. Just that she dies in childbirth. The giant clue was that Obi-Wan was present. That would not happen in any normal standard safe childbirth situation. Obi-Wan is not a doctor or a midwife, or the kid's father. Obi-Wan's presence, helping coach Padme into remaining calm etc points to an emergency/accident situation. With 100% certainty. So taking Padme far away from the Jedi changes the course of that future incident. You can't get more simple & obvious than that. That's why the visions of his mother in AotC were better presented. All he could sense is that she was in pain & would die. He had no other information & he was light years away from her. He was helpless. In RotS, by getting more specifics like childbirth & Obi-Wan being there, combined with the fact that he was with Padme, this whole "dilemma" for Anakin is absurd. When you have a supposedly good person go down the path of ultimate evil you need to make it a last resort. That he had no choice. In this situation, not only did Anakin have another choice, that choice was 1000 times more obvious & likely to safeguard his wife than killing everyone & hoping to learn an evil spell to maybe save her. A spell that Palpatine himself says he's not even sure about! It's as if Lucas tried to come up with the worst least convincing story of Anakin's turn that he possibly could.
    Last edited by Darth Downunder, Nov 14, 2017
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  22. darkspine10 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2014
    star 5
    Alright, but Obi-Wan was already new in the visions due to Anakin's actions. At first Padme' is calling out for Anakin in the vision. When Anakin later sees the vision, Obi-Wan is now there, implying that Anakin is heading more towards an end where he's not with Padme.

    Who's to say that if Anakin moves to Naboo, he won't start having visions of Padme and, say, Sio Bibble during the birth scene. Or hell, Obi-Wan might come looking for the two, fulfilling the vision anyway.
  23. AndyLGR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2014
    star 4
    Thanks for clarifying, in that case your point makes sense.
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  24. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2015
    star 4
    @The_Phantom_Calamari wrote

    Why do people constantly act like Anakin making the wrong decision is some sort of plot hole?

    Because he knew by the time of ROTS that he couldn't really trust his (TPM) premonitions.

    ANAKIN.
    I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the
    slaves...have you come to free us?

    From what I know this particuilar dream never became a reality, so Anakin should have known better (i.e. not to trust his dreams or premonitions).
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  25. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2013
    star 3
    In TPM Anakin was a kid with the wrong perception of the Jedi (they can't be killed, for example), so he hoped he'll become one and free all the slaves. That obviously wasn't like that and his Jedi commitments did not allow him to go back and free his mother. And all the slaves, which is, to be realistic, impossible dream.

    In ROTS he's a Jedi Knight troubled by visions of his dying wife and he decides to act upon them. Which lead to making them true. And, besides, there's much more than that because it's a culmination of everything that happened him from TPM until then. It's not that simple.
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