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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Correct, many things could. If he just had a vision that she died in childbirth & that's it, then he'd be quite helpless. Yet that's not all he sees. He sees Padme screaming his name in agony & Obi-Wan coaching her through the birth. Obi-Wan, his Jedi colleague who isn't even supposed to know about the pregnancy! Isn't the most likely scenario here an accident/emergency situation? What's another likely & realistic situation that explains what he's seeing?
    Yep, that's the intention but the writing & the execution of the scene undermines that. Lucas should've kept the visions vague like he did with Shmi. The drama shown during the birth, esp revealing Obi-Wan's involvement point away from just an unavoidable childbirth fatality. Those facts point to an unplanned, unexpected incident. Like I said, what are the odds of Padme having an unavoidable childbirth problem that the best medical center could not avoid AND Obi-Wan just happening to be there acting as a midwife?? This is what Lucas is suggesting & what goofball Anakin believes. It's dumb.
    We know what Anakin is supposed to think & what his conclusion is supposed to be. It was conveyed terribly though. Add to this the incredibly unlikely low-percentage alternative plan he runs with. Which comes with the caveat that he has to kill everyone!
    It would've been great if that's all he knew. Unfortunately the visions revealed more, including a far more obvious way to try to avoid the incident he sees. Which Padme actually suggests.
    Right, so when Anakin was told about the Plagueis legend he believed that Palps was just a well-read politician. Not someone who would actually know this Sith immortality spell. Since Anakin just killed Dooku & he isn't pals with the rumored Sith Master that may be lurking somewhere in the galaxy, what chance could he believe he'd ever find out about this Sith magic? Zero is the answer. He then has more visions about Padme which now include Obi-Wan's involvement in the birth. If we pause the situation here Anakin must realise he has no chance of ever learning the alleged Sith spell that may not even exist, but he does see a bizarre scenario where Obi-Wan is delivering his kid while a frantic Padme screams out his name. Getting Padme far away from that scenario involving Obi-Wan would seem a wise move.
    Correct. There's no absolute 100% certainty here. Least of all a Sith anti-death spell that hasn't been confirmed to exist. That even Palps is very cagey about knowing.
    We also see Anakin's visions & we can't make out a location. So how does Anakin "know" it's in a hospital? Nothing in the vision suggests it is.
     
  2. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    I think the point of Obi-Wan in the vision was to show Anakin's growing paranoia over thinking Obi-Wan and Padme have an affair behind his back which culminated with him choking her on Mustafar right after seeing Obi-Wan there. Jealousy over perceived unfaithfulness.
     
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  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The problem with Anakin's visions, I think, is that they are not connected with Luke's vision and his desire to intervene. At no point is Luke's perception of his friend's pain described as a symptom of his greed or inability to let go of things. It is because Luke is foolhardy to respond to them in the midst of his training even with the added insight that his friends are made to suffer for that express purpose. Even Lucas states in commentary that Luke's intentions and the impulses he is responding to are correct, but he is not ready yet to assume responsibility for everyone else and to take on Vader.

    No such dilemma is linked to Anakin's vision. He senses his mother's imminent death because he's needy and can't let go. It's irrelevant that his insight is accurate and that the impulse to intervene is authentic. Ditto with sensing Padme's death. If Anakin's insight is equally as accurate as before, then it means that he was destined also to have turned to the darkside in order to prevent his vision coming true (instead of turning because he wasn't ready to take on a Sith, which was Luke's peril), and then strangled Padme because Obi Wan turns up making the chances of the vision coming true even greater.

    Luke's vision dilemma and Anakin's are like chalk and cheese.
     
  4. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    well I've already said that I don't know why exactly Kenobi is there , he's an old friend and she's in labor . if you want to believe in this accident/emergency scenario good luck to you , but I don't see how its gonna help Anakin avoid it when he doesn't know what the accident / emergency is .

    which is what ? he doesn't know when or where she is in the vision .
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Yes, because Palpatine was interested in history and it was no secret that he was interested in the Jedi/Sith war. He even has Sith relics in his office.

    Except Obi-wan is off on Utapau. So there's no reason to worry there. He might be gone for months like they were when they were in the Outer Rim and had come from Mandalore. And that doesn't stop him from coming to Naboo, or Alderaan, if she contacts him or Anakin contacts him to stay with her. Or he shows up because the battle leads to there. Did you ever think of that? Not so simple now, is it?

    As to learning the trick, the point is to plant the seed of knowledge and dissent in Anakin. Anakin starts to wonder if the Council would ever trust him with such knowledge like what Plagueis is alleged to have done. It also opens the door to not killing Palpatine when he finds out about him, because he can pump him for information. At the very least, he can gain more knowledge from a Sith Lord about the Sith, than he can from a Jedi Master.

    But it is more than what he's getting from the Jedi. And he is 100% certain she will die.

    The same way he knows that she's giving birth, but doesn't see her pushing out a baby.

    He doesn't think they're having an affair. He never thought that. He wanted to know why Obi-wan was in the apartment, because he would have no reason to come there other than he knows about them.

    Actually, there is an inability to let them go. As noted, he cannot accept that his friends might die and that they would sacrifice themselves for him, so that he can stay and finish his training. His greed is in not wanting them to die, just as it was with Anakin and Shmi. They both see their loved ones being tortured and act to do something about it, putting themselves in danger. Both men were in a dangerous time, when they would be tempted by the dark side of the Force. The connection between Padme and Leia, comes through in ROTJ, when both are used to trigger an emotional response out of the Skywalker men. The only change is that Luke snaps out of it.
     
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  6. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    Considering how he lashes out at Obi-Wan that he will not take her from him and immediately assumes Obi-Wan is the reason why Padme refuses to follow him, I'll say the idea of Padme choosing Obi-Wan over him probably crossed his mind.
     
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  7. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    I agree there was a jealousy there ( which the vision would have amplified) but not of a romantic sense , Anakin feels that she is tending more towards Kenobi in terms of 'allegiance' or politics .

    Anakin has 2 things going on : desperate desire to save Padme and a growing lust for power , these fuel each other but the lust for power overtakes his love for Padme , it corrupts his love , he becomes a control freak .

    .
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Nope.

    "One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint, but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all and it's because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it. And now he’s assuming that she’s with Obi-wan, not necessarily in a love relationship or anything, in the basis that they are both on one side of the path and he’s going down the other."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


    Anakin doesn't think that they're in a relationship other than being friends. He believes that she's turned against him because Obi-wan and that she's agreed to have him killed, because he's a Sith now. It never had to do with infidelity. Anakin knows that he has only ever loved one other that way, Satine Kryze and that he was already suspicious of Anakin and Padme's relationship before now.
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    No. The prequels define Anakin's sensitivity to his mother's plight and prescience regarding Padme's death as not letting go, an indication of his selfishness and the possessive greed that makes him more likely to turn to the dark side. He's told to train himself not to be that way and to accept the imminent death and danger that he senses And then they turned him over to spy on a chancellor that they sense the dark side surrounding. Anakin did not choose to rush and face something he was warned he is not ready to deal with and resist. He was ordered to go there by Yoda and the others, presumably on the basis that he was ready, in spite of being just told that he is lacking the training to not be selfish.

    When Luke senses his friends suffering, Yoda immediately tells him that he sees the future, then assists him in trying to see if they will die or not. So Yoda seems oddly comfortable with this symptom of not letting go, selfishly wanting to possess his friends and therefore being preoccupied with them instead of what Yoda wants him to do.

    Them dying is irrelevant to Yoda The most important thing for the galaxy, as far as Yoda and Ben are concerned, is that Luke stays and completes his training. Luke's friends pain is being induced with the express purpose of luring him into a trap at a crucial and vulnerable stage. Yoda's objections are to do with Luke's obligations. e.g. These are the circumstances we have to accept. War is hell. You need to stay here now or it could jeopardize everything. They are pragmatic objections. Nothing to do with the possibility of greed and possessiveness being the reason he's having the vision in the first place. The vision is characterized as a radio signal that any Jedi can tune in to if they so wish. As demonstrated by Yoda. (Could have saved a lot of lives if he'd similarly tuned into Anakin's visions of Padme when first warned about them)

    The connection with Anakin's visions, their origin and their purpose, is tenuous at best.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Both situations have to do with letting go of people who come and go in your life. To not become too attached to them. People who suffer and/or die, whether by circumstances like Padme's or Leia's, the point is to learn to get go of them. The reasons for the visions isn't about greed and possessiveness, they're the end result of seeing something happening and not being willing to let go of them. Basically giving into fear of loss which is a path to the dark side. Luke is afraid to lose Han and Leia, because they are his friends and he cares for them a lot. Anakin is afraid to lose Shmi and Padme because he cares for them a lot. Another Jedi who has faced the dark side temptations is Ezra Bridger, who was not selfish and greedy, yet he is afraid to lose his friends as well. He struggles with the selfishness and greed and seeks to find the balance so that he can love his friends, but not be attached. But it becomes harder because certain attitudes agree with some of his sensibilities. For instance, he agreed with Saw Guerra that they need to fight the Empire hard, but he disagreed with the willingness to do whatever it takes, including not helping people and even showing indifference to the suffering of others.

    So it is always a struggle to care for others, but to not give into fear. But they often are born of the same basic fear which is fear of loss.
     
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  11. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    This is what baffles me. All this "Why didn't Anakin do this and why didn't Anakin do that."

    How about talking about what he actually did which really makes the most sense? He went to Yoda and was told "Let go and remember your teaching." and then Palpatine told him "The power to save her exists learn my teachings."

    Philosophy, mystery and mysticism of the Force all wrapped up in one storyline. Yet time and again I hear people who think that there wasn't much of this in the prequels whereas myself and others see it in corner after corner of the movies.
     
  12. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You're still not getting it. Any normal, planned, safe birth in a hospital where Padme has been admitted well ahead of time would not involve Obi-Wan of all people coaching a screaming Padme through the birth. To say otherwise is absurd. Your defense is saying that checking Padme into a hospital does not provide a 100% guarantee that the type of birth he sees in his visions will be avoided. So what? It has to greatly improve her chances. Anakin doesn't have a 100% guarantee as an alternative, or anything even close to that. His alternative is a rumored Dark Side spell told in a legend that may or may not even exist. What's more investigating it wouldn't get in the way of the obvious plan A strategy. He could do both. Which makes him look like an idiot for not taking the obvious precaution. Therefore the visions should've been presented differently.
    That sentence doesn't make an ounce of sense. A woman can give birth anywhere. If Anakin had seen a doctor coaching Padme through the birth it would be reasonable to conclude she's in a hospital. Seeing a Jedi colleague, one who isn't even supposed to know about the pregnancy means it could be anywhere. Including a dangerous location where an emergency birth is happening. If you believed you were clairvoyant, & you saw a buddy (who you planned on keeping the pregnancy secret from) coaching your wife through the birth while she's screaming in agony & then she dies, I'm pretty sure your plan would be to get her into a hospital ahead of time & leave her in expert care until the birth. You'd think that your buddy's presence could point to an accident/emergency situation. Which led to his presence rather than yours or a doctor's. You would do this even if you could also study some anti-death spells as a backup plan. Pretty simple stuff.

    The point of all this is, Lucas would've been wise to leave Anakin's visions vague & lacking in any detail. Just as he did with Shmi. Then, Anakin throwing all of his hopes in with Palpatine's far-fetched tales of Sith spells would've been more believable & understandable.
     
  13. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Ok, so if Anakin, 'checks Padme into a hospital' or whatever, how will that fix anything? She gave birth in a hospital anyway.

    Anakin lives in a world where men shoot lightning from their fingertips, tiny green frog men can lift massive columns with their mind, and where there are wizards who have superhuman reflexes and who sometimes see the future. Why is it so out there that there might be a way to stave off death?

    Nothing Anakin did the first time around with his mother ended up helping her. Maybe he just thinks that a more force based solution is the only way to stave off his visions, as a more earthly solution was no good last time.
     
  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Obi-Wan acting as a midwife suggested an incident involving him. Sure enough, that's what happened. Which precipitated Padme's will to live meter being drained to fatal levels. If she'd been on Naboo in hospital surrounded by her family there, rather than being choked out on Mustafar she would've been fine.
    Sure, why not. He could study immortality whenever he can. It'll come in handy some day. Right now, rather than put all of his hopes on this dubious spell, getting Padme away to safety should be the first step.
    That's silly. Shmi died as a result of a regular incident committed by a tribe of thugs. Nothing supernatural about it. Problem was he couldn't get to her in time. He's with Padme & she's perfectly healthy. He also has a vital clue which suggests she doesn't die in childbirth during a regular, planned, normal, safe delivery. Unless Obi-Wan has a quick change of career & becomes a doctor or midwife.
    It's a problem when Anakin's solution was (a) completely obvious, (b) one Padme suggested to him, & (c) one we know would've worked & resulted in a safe birth with Padme & the twins all being fine. Even if Anakin had gone back to Coruscant & still turned, Padme wouldn't have seen his dark deeds first hand, or been choked out by him. Therefore her will to live meter would've remained at a safe level.
     
  15. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Anakin himself is living proof that the Force can create life ex nihilo. It's not a far leap from there to propose that the Force can create life out of death. In fact, we know that it can. Just not in the way Anakin would have liked.
     
  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Great, & maybe one day eventually he will "discover the secret". In the meantime, the clock's ticking & he just saw a bizarre childbirth scenario involving Obi-Wan of all people! Hospital now, evil magic later.


    Btw, I stumbled across this old post. Hilarious! http://boards.theforce.net/threads/is-naboo-politically-retar... [face_laugh]
     
  17. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Yeah, and who's to say the moving her stops Obi-Wan being in Anakin's visions? Even if it does, we've already seen the vision shift once, so it could easily change again.

    Presumably had Order 66 not gone down, Padme would still have gone to a hospital to give birth, so what good does it do Anakin to have her moved to one permanently?
     
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    No. Lucas states clearly that Luke's impulse is correct. It's the circumstances that are the problem. He must complete his Jedi training or be vulnerable to defeat and capture by Vader who is stronger. Then after that, an once Luke discovers his true identity, he will becomes suggestible, willing or blackmailed to joining the other side etc.


    Anakin's vision (which Yoda makes no effort to try and detect like he does with Luke's) is supposed to be an impulse based on greed and possessiveness. The vision itself is a symptom of Anakin's readiness to be turned to the dark side and for entirely different reasons than were touched on during Luke's vulnerable stage. The Jedi clearly did not care or consider Anakin to be vulnerable because they sent him to spy on the darkness surrounded Chancellor. For all they know Palpatine may have been the one that Anakin was afraid of losing.
     
  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    It's his best option. Maybe possibly learning a Sith immortality spell sure isn't a guarantee. Who's to say it even exists? Who's to say he'll be able to learn it in time? Padme could die due to something completely natural & avoidable. Just like his mother did. He didn't need Sith magic to save Shmi. He just needed to get to her in time.
    Huh? Order 66 isn't a thing at the time Anakin had his visions. He moves her to a hospital well ahead of the birth bcs he sees her die during the delivery, & not with a doctor helping her through it but one of his fellow Jedi.

    Again, the point here isn't to endlessly pour over the in-universe minutiae of the scenario. It's to say that Lucas should've written the situation in such a way that Anakin had no other reasonable option other than sign up as a Sith & begin murdering everyone. By giving Anakin these clues via his vision he gave Anakin a far more obvious & more sensible alternative. It's just one of the many problems with the way his turn to the DS was depicted.
     
  20. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I certainly am not getting it because Anakin makes it completely totally clear right from the start that the vision is about Padme dying in childbirth. That is the immutable fact he sees. Changing hospitals, Obi-Wan or no Obi-Wan et all means nothing. The core of the vision is clear.



    "You die in childbirth." Technology can't save her. Only power through the Force can. Trying to find some technological solution is a waste of time.

    Not in the least. It's a 100% certainty for Anakin. They are the same as the ones he had about his mother but now they are even more clear to him.

    The 100% guarantee is that she dies in childbirth.

    Spell? No. It's the power of the Force. You know the Force? It's that thing that is pretty important in the world of Star Wars. Remember this is the same guy who decades later would look at the Death Star and says it's ability to destroy a planet is nothing next to the Force. Anakin and Vader use technology but know that it's limited compared to the power of the Force. The idea that he would depend on technology when it's a shadow of power compared to the Force doesn't work. As I say so many times Lucas knows his characters far better than we do. Anakin is so well written because as both Anakin and as Vader he is the same person just at different points in his life.

    I know for some they can't reconcile that Anakin and Vader are both one and the same and at the same time two different sides of one person but they are. I marvel at the way Lucas is able to keep the character of Anakin both in-line with where the Vader of the OT came from but at the same time he is not Vader yet.

    I think that for many they wish that Anakin as far back as TPM was more overtly Vader. If he was just a "bad guy" or child from the start they'd like it more.

    No to him it's an idiotic waste of time. Again this is emphasized in the later scenes.



    "I found a way to save you."

    He found the way that lies in the power of the Force. What is anything else compared to that? It's what makes the universe itself work.

    Again the blazing mysticism in the prequels shines through. And yet again I say that what is utterly baffling to me is that some of the same people who complain that in some way the midi-chlorians take away from the mysticism of the Force because it introduces science into it (nevermind that already happened in ANH in the first place and then later in biology in ROTJ).

    I don't recall off-hand your own personal take on the midi-chlorians but for those who complain about not wanting "science and technology" being wrapped into important issues in Star Wars and the Force then it's very odd to me to on the one hand complain about the supposed use of it in TPM then complain about the lack of it in ROTS. So Anakin should depend as much on science as the Force but actually shouldn't the Jedi be more aware of the Force than worry about the science of it?

    It's totally believable and understandable. Anakin in not some distant observer or philosopher. He is a man who is a husband who loves his wife and wants to save her. He has a vision that gives him a specific point about his wife dying. The circumstances around it might change but the actual event itself does not.

    This all ties back to AOTC where he needed more power to save Shmi and said it wouldn't happen again. Now it's going to. This is the Force were talking about. Anakin knows he has no father. He was conceived by the midi-chlorians. He is a vergence in the Force. He knows that he will become unspeakably powerful compared to any other Jedi ever including Yoda. He's knows he's supposed to be the Chosen One. It's all totally believable and understandable from his characters point of view.

    None whatsoever. We don't see how many times Anakin has this vision. We don't need to as we see it twice and it's different. There is no need storywise to do so more just to show that it changes a bit each time. Whatever hospital or whoever is there is secondary to the single important thing that doesn't change. We see less of his vision than he does and we can't feel what the character does during them. That scene after the second is so well done because the desperation of Anakin is palpable:

    "No, I promise you."
     
  21. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    I honestly don't know why you keep saying this . Can't say I hang around the maternity wards that much but I've seen enough movies and its very common for the spouse or a friend to be there at the birth . Kenobi's an old friend .

    ok describe what you think he should've seen in his vision .

    .
     
  22. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Why? Why would he be certain that she dies because of childbirth, & not simply in childbirth due to the unusual situation his visions indicate? Ie Padme screaming out for help, Obi-Wan of all people standing over her telling her not to give up. Everything you posted above is fine. It should be what the story clearly depicted. But it wasn't. This is another writing issue. With all of these things, we can come up with in-universe explanations that can fit. It's like the previous discussion. Sure the Jedi could've concluded that Maul was a Sith bcs of his skills, or after searching his ship. That's not the point. The script set up Maul's identity as a mystery. It told us that it was needed to solve the bigger mystery. That didn't happen, they solve it anyway yet they don't say how. It's a writing flaw. Here the previous movie showed Anakin's mother dying due to an attack. It was a completely avoidable incident - if Anakin had reached her in time to prevent it. With Padme, he's with her. She's fine & healthy. He has visions of her dying in childbirth. Not because of childbirth. For all he knows she's been critically injured in an accident, & goes into an emergency labor & dies. Which is not far from what happens. The visions provide no reason to believe that Padme's death is unavoidable. That she dies bcs of the birth & that no matter where he takes her she'll die - due to the birth. What greatly exacerbates this is seeing only Obi-Wan there during the delivery. That automatically increases the likelihood of an accident/emergency situation by an enormous factor. In a normal safe & planned birth Padme is surrounded by medical staff & Anakin himself. Perhaps the Amidala family too. It's a no-brainer. The visions point towards a far simpler course of action for Anakin. Rather than the extreme & murderous one he does choose. Again, this is a critique of the way the vision scenes were written & depicted in RotS.
    No, it's the rarest thing in the world for a "friend" to be standing over a frantic screaming woman who's in pain, coaching her through the labor. Saying to her "don't give up!". When she's moments from death. Within a hospital where the woman should be attended to by doctors & nurses. When Anakin would be sure that he would be there. When the pregnancy is supposed to be a secret from the Jedi including Obi-Wan. Come on, pls stop peddling this silliness. Nothing normal about what Anakin sees. Therefore his clear choice is to ensure that Padme does have a normal, planned delivery in a safe supervised environment.
    Obi-Wan should've been left out of it. If he just sees Padme die in labor with no further context then he can feel quite helpless & desperate. His first most reasonable assumption would be that nothing unforeseen happened. That she went along to a hospital as per the typical plan & then she dies. There would be nothing in his vision to make him think otherwise. However, having Obi-Wan there is an unexpected variable that changes the context of the whole scenario. He should wracking his brains thinking "why the hell is Kenobi with my dying pregnant wife, coaching her through the labor until her death!? Am I there? Is a doctor there? Where is this happening for Obi-Wan of all people to be acting as a midwife? Something must happen. Something terrible that results in her death". That's the obvious & natural thought process that anyone with an ounce of intelligence would have. Forget Sith magic, he needs to intervene & ensure that during the birth Padme is surrounded by the galaxy's best doctors, not freakin Obi-Wan. This is why Lucas erred in having Obi-Wan present in the visions. Bcs of Anakin's awful extreme actions in turning to the DS, he needed to present the visions in such a way as to leave no question that Anakin had other options to prevent her death. He needed to be very clear about that bcs Anakin's turn is a key event in the Saga. Lucas did a poor job in that respect.
     
  23. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Why is Obi-Wan being there so unusual? He and Padme are established as good friends, so it makes sense he would attend the birth.

    The vision is not exactly clear. Padme was surrounded by doctors and medical droids anyway, the vision just happens to show a slice of Obi-Wan and Padme dying. What exactly can Anakin do to stop this without moving Padme against her wishes, keeping her locked in a hospital, and banning Obi-Wan from the premises? How would that be rational from anyone else's point of view?

    I'm sure in most cases where mothers have complications in childbirth, friends and family would be there giving support, regardless of whether they had doctors nearby anyway. And Anakin's second vision lasts all of about 10 seconds, leaving plenty of room for ambiguity.
     
  24. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Darth Downunder — Did Padmé ever explicitly say she was dying in the dreams? Removing Anakin’s conclusions, it just looks and sounds like a natural response of a woman giving birth. I’ve been told labor hurts a hell of a freaking lot, so no wonder she’s screaming, sobbing, wanting Anakin by her side.

    Secondly, of course Obi-Wan would be there to help. Why wouldn’t he? He’s an old friend of theirs. As to why Anakin wasn’t there? Who knows. Maybe he had to go pick up some meds? Maybe he’s busy in the bathroom? Maybe he’s stuck on a mission elsewhere? Maybe he had the misfortune of falling ill on the day of the labor and Obi-Wan had to pick up the slack for him?

    Remember, this whole “dying” business is squarely Anakin clasping on one conclusion and declaring it a 100% fact. While I can get why he’d think that, the visions (if you remove the conclusions) just show me a pregnant woman screaming in labor. Hell, if I were a lady giving birth, I’d be screaming bloody murder, crying out for hubby, and thankful his friend is at least there for me.

    Speaking of friend, of COURSE I’d want him with me. I would know the friend; he’d be a familiar face in an obviously painful, difficult situation. Having his head floating around my tear-filled vision coaching me is a hell of a lot better than staring at a white wall, or doctors who are too interested at the other end to tend to my emotional/psychological needs.

    So yes, get Obi-Wan in the room, have him hold her hand and speak sweet things to her. He’s a friend, a colleague, not some random dude picked off the street.
     
  25. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Sitting in a waiting room would not be unusual. That would be a friend "attending". Except that the pregnancy is supposed to be a secret, even from Obi-Wan. Standing over a woman, coaching her through the birth as she's dying...that's not usual at all. Are you saying Anakin should assume this is just a typical run-of-the-mill delivery situation??
    So how about going with her wishes. Which was to go back to Naboo well ahead of the birth. And tell her what he saw in his vision. That Obi-Wan of all people was the only person he saw there. So as a precaution she should have medical supervision until the birth. What on earth is unreasonable about that?
    It's not a matter of coming up with some in-universe explanation that "could" fit the scenario. It's what appears most likely given the facts seen in the vision. The scenario you put fwd is far-fetched compared to some kind of accident/emergency. Anakin doesn't even want to tell Obi-Wan about the pregnancy, much less have him acting as a midwife. In the visions Anakin doesn't see himself there, even though Padme is calling for him. He doesn't see any of the Amidalas. He doesn't see Padme's Naboo entourage. He doesn't see a doctor. He sees...Obi-Wan Kenobi as her only assistance!
    & you're saying this is "all fine here, situation normal" ??