PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Well, the vision seems to be zoomed in on Padmé and Obi-Wan. There’s no way to tell who or what is standing right next to them.

 

Obi-Wan is the only person he sees with her as she's dying. That's a massive red flag.

 

Again, he doesn't know the circumstances of that vision only that it will happen at some point near in the future. And who's to say Palpatine won't find another way to to further isolate Anakin from his loved ones?

 

what's odd about that ? Friends often are there for someone giving birth .

actually I agree that Anakin would be wondering why he himself is not there and this is a bruise to his ego and would exacerbate his 'control freak' nature , so it adds to Anakin's desire to get more control . But of course he doesn't know why Kenobi's there or when or where this happens .
But primarily its the visceral certain feeling that she's gonna die that haunts him .

.

 

*believes it will happen.

 

Due to the experience with his mother verifying the accuracy of those visions, and Yoda not doing anything to discourage him from assuming that his current visions are equally as accurate and offering only the advice to help himself to accept the outcome before it happens.

Yoda also makes no attempt to share Anakin's vision or his perspective in order to gain better insight on what could be an extremely dangerous development at a vulnerable time for him.

 

Not 'those', 'that'.

Visions are visions. They can become true or not. Padmé's death became true because he acted on that vision. Yoda's advice was rightful: to accept the possibility and let go of it. Anakin didn't follow Yoda's advice and his fears materialized.

 

No. He saw the future, just like he did with his mother's death. Yoda did not tell him to do nothing in order for it not to happen. He told him to train himself to accept it that it will and to do likewise when it happens. Which he did, in the end. He just didn't accept that it could not be reversed so he remained loyal to Sidious.


The death of Anakin's mother was not the materialization of what he feared or the consequence of disobeying Yoda or anyone else. Those visions Anakin had were of his mother's future. Having the vision did not cause Shmi's death. Anakin responding to it did not cause Shmi's death. Arguably because he didn't respond quickly enough because he was hesitant about going AWOL.

Yoda gave no discouragement to Anakin assuming his current visions of the future were similarly accurate to the ones he had of his mother's death.

It's merely tragic irony that the circumstances of Padme's death were the fall out from Anakin's efforts to ensure that the future he saw could be reversed (rather than prevented by expedient pre-emptive action, like any normal person would assume to be the value of seeing into the future). Nothing to do with not following Yoda's advice. Yoda's advice was to accept the future that he saw. Accepting that future means accepting the circumstances that caused it,which means that means that Yoda is accepting of Anakin's turn to the darkside and the resultant confrontation which precipitates Padme's death (or doesn't, according to medical/poetry droid).

 

Hate to tell you, but the woman is capable of deciding who she wants in the delivery room with her. It can either be the spouse, or a blood family member or a friend. Obi-wan would be in there because she demanded that he be in there. And we know that the vision does change, because Obi-wan's robe is on in the vision and off when it happens.

A woman doesn't just die while in childbirth unless it is because of childbirth. That happens. And that is what Anakin concludes. He concludes that she will die no matter what or where she is and who is or isn't with her.

Because he has concluded that it doesn't matter. Say it with the Rock...



It doesn't matter that she's in the hospital or not. She's going to die. That is what he concludes.

No, Yoda said that he should train himself to let go of his fears. He didn't say it was inevitable. He just tells him to prepare himself for the worse and to beware when sensing the future.

 

No he told him to train himself to let go of the thing he feared to lose. Anakin saw the near future and was afraid of it.

 

Yoda has no idea that anything is going on except that Anakin is having nightmares about a loved one dying. Yoda (correctly, note) concludes that this is simply a manifestation of Anakin's obsessive anxieties. And so he counsels him accordingly.

At the end of the day, Anakin's visions aren't about Padme dying at some specific point in the future. They're about Padme dying at all. He has a vision of Padme dying in childbirth because childbirth represents change--the old being replaced by the new. Padme will die one day, because that is the natural way of things, because death is necessary in order for new life to spring forward--and Anakin can't handle that. That's what the visions are about, it's why he's having these visions in the first place. And Anakin freaks out about it and tries to obtain the power to change the natural order, in the process ironically causing the visions to come true literally.

 

I mostly agree with your sentiment, but I'm not sure if I can agree that the visions aren't of a specific death.
Yes, Anakin's fear - a fear that he would always have regardless of how specific the visions are as you say - ultimately ends up bringing about Padme's death.
But the idea that he is sensing something more short-term and direct than just "Padme will eventually die" seems to make more sense in light of his turn. His power of precognition has served him in the past, and I think it is implied he is sensing her actual death.

But I agree, Anakin would not accept it as an inevitability regardless.


Edit - Admittedly, it was not really your main point.
But going further with my train of thought, I think it would stronger relate to Luke's vision in ESB this way. Luke's vision doesn't directly come about because of his inability to accept nature, even if acting on his vision is indeed related to being unable to accept change and loss. He simply is in tune with the force during a moment of intense focus, and sees a possible future. Of course, "always in motion is the future", and there is also the paradoxical nature in Vader is causing his friends' suffering knowing of Luke's weakness.

 

Jedi don't have nightmares. Anakin's visions accurately convey the moments before Padme's death just like those of his mother. You cannot glibly dismiss this fact.

The tragedy is that he believes he can reverse a death he's destined to cause. If you ignore the medi-poet droid who absolves Anakin.

 

Right, I think you both are essentially seeing the same thing, just from ever so slightly different angles. I don't think TPC means an impending event is not what Anakin is seeing, but that it's his abstract fears of loss & change in general that are coming through his subconscious and manifesting in his dreams with applicable real world imagery and implications.

In my view, his visions are showing him the end result of what letting his emotions control his decisions & not allowing for the inevitable will bring. His reaction should have been to adjust himself accordingly and conquer his fears, but as Calamari concluded...

 

Says who? Anakin stating this in AOTC I think is supposed to convey his own stubbornness and perhaps arrogance in thinking Jedi are above human.

I don't think it absolves Anakin, his turning to the dark side is a major part of what breaks her heart.

Well put.
It is a little circular to think about, but I do think that Anakin letting go of these fears would have made Padme's survival more likely.

 

That's what I said.

 

The biggest plot hole is on Utapau.

The Episode 3 game has the Utapau missions on levels 7, 8, and 9, but Tion Medon says "Tenth level. Thousands of battle droids." Um, no there isn't.

Everyone knows Level 10 has Anakin fight Mace (which also didn't happen)

Damn Lucas and his inconsistencies.

 

Agree with Darth Sinister's analysis. But, also, since when does a character behaving less than completely rationally constitute a "plot hole"? Anakin fears Padme is going to die. He describes his dreams as being just like the ones he had about his mother. And it's not some vague far-off premonition. Dies in childbirth. The clock is ticking. Anakin lets his fear take over. Padme's about to die, very soon, unless Anakin can pull off some trick he has no idea how to pull off. Between this and the conflict of duty that the Jedi Council and Palpatine have put him in, he's just one big simmering stew of dutifulness, resentment, loyalty, friendship, and just-barely-contained panicky desperation. And then Palpatine tells him just exactly what he wants to hear. Is Anakin going to take that with clear-headed logic? Or is he going to engage in some of that, whatdayacallit .... motivated reasoning, followed by heaps of self-justification?

Yes, Anakin screwed up. He didn't do the sensible thing. His fears overrode his rationality. That's not a plot hole. That's the story. Were we supposed to expect that Ep III would show that Anakin's turn to the Dark Side was so logically considered and rationally justified that we would all just sit back and say ... wow ... I guess Anakin made the right call there?

 

Why are you arguing against this being a "plot hole" when nobody has argued that it is one? What I did say was that IMO the scenario was poorly written & presented by Lucas. What should've been made clear in the movie was that Anakin had visions that leaves he & us as the audience in no doubt that Padme would die in childbirth no matter what. That it was overwhelmingly likely that she dies because of childbirth, therefore her death was certain no matter where or how she gave birth. Only then does Anakin's choice of selling his soul to learn the relevant Dark Side magic to save her become justifiable from his pov. It was very important that this was depicted skillfully within the story & with no ambiguity. Bcs in choosing that path Anakin was required to commit the most awful acts we witness in the Saga. Including murdering children. IMO & in the opinion of many Lucas botched Anakin's turn in a variety of ways. When it comes to the visions & Anakin's decisions the whole thing is a bit laughable. If he'd seen her die in childbirth surrounded by doctors attending to her, his next actions are justified. Bcs even with expert medical care she dies. Time to start learning evil spells. If he'd only seen her die in childbirth & nothing more, then his decisions are still understandable. After all his assumption would be that when his wife gives birth she'd do so normally via a planned admission in a hospital. There would be nothing in the vision to make him doubt that. So again, time for the Sith spells. However neither of these situations were presented. Bizarrely, Lucas includes a detail that should telegraph to Anakin that something very wrong is to occur in terms of the situation that Padme finds herself in. In which the birth occurs. Obi-Wan, who isn't even supposed to know about the pregnancy is the only person he sees attending to her. As she's screaming in pain, calling out for Anakin. As she's moments from death. Despite some unconvincing attempts to account for this by the usual defenders, this has to point towards a completely unplanned atypical birth scenario. Likely an accident/emergency situation (which it is). Rather than one where in plenty of time Padme was admitted to a hospital & is surrounded by doctors, & with Anakin & not Obi-Wan by her side. Why this matters is that it should get Anakin thinking differently about the whole problem. Maybe Padme's death relates to the situation he sees (which it does). Maybe Padme gets injured (she does) & perhaps it's a preventable injury (it is). What other explanation is there (& not one that's merely possible, but one that is likely) which explains the scenario in his vision? Obi-Wan being "invited" to the birth & being the only person coaching Padme through it as she dies is a bad joke. Anakin ignoring this detail, not acknowledging it in the movie & not considering the plan of getting Padme far away from the potentially life-threatening future incident that his vision hints at is patently absurd.

However, there is an alternative explanation that does make this work. It's one that becomes increasingly clear the more you look at the PT. That is that it's the story of an extraordinarily stupid person with extraordinary powers. I don't think anyone expected that would be the story, but that's what it turned out to be. Anakin in Eps 2 & 3 is so gullible & dim-witted it beggars belief. The clue presented to him on a platter in his vision, which could've easily allowed him to avoid the episode that leads to Padme's death goes completely over his thick head. Then, by some "miracle" the evil Sith Lord just happens to possibly know of some immortality magic - right at the exact same time that he's having dreams about his wife dying! Nothing suspicious about that bit if timing. Even though this magic is only told in a legend & even though the guy who may've discovered it is long dead, Anakin throws his lot in with a man who he just discovered had been lying to everyone for a decade about his very identity. Anakin then proceeds to kill everyone in exchange for the dubious chance that maybe they can put their heads together & possibly discoverer the "secret" of the anti-death magic. Hopefully in time before Padme dies during the birth, with Jedi turned midwife Obi-Wan by her side.

I think what Lucas has depicted is a commentary on idiots in positions of influence. Just as there's JarJar in the Senate we have Anakin as the Chosen One. It's a perfectly valid story to tell. Not allowing dummies to posses power & influence over others is an important lesson. The only issue I have with it is one of continuity. Vader in the OT seemed quite clever. I don't buy that in his 20's as a grown adult he was an imbecile. Maybe turning to the Dark Side boosts intelligence but again, that's never mentioned or established in the Saga. If they retcon that as a story fact then Anakin's condition in the PT would make far more sense.

 

.. who was brought up and schooled by ostensibly the most wise people in the galaxy.

 

Damn that's a big hole.

 

Because you're arguing about it in a thread called, "Plot holes and inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy".

 

From ROTS (sloppy, poorly-written):

Anakin (to Padme): "You die in childbirth." <spends rest of movie behaving as though he believes this is inevitable, barring a literal miracle>

From hypothetical ROTS (carefully constructed, well-written):

Anakin (to Padme): "I had a dream you died in childbirth. And then in the dream I asked the doctors and medical droids in the well-equipped facilities that we were in if there was anything that could have been done medically to save you, or if there was any reasonable course of action that, had I taken it, would have prevented this. A change in diet, perhaps? What if we had arrived at the hospital 10 minutes sooner? Would your chances have been better on Naboo or Coruscant? Then in the dream the doctors and med droids consulted among themselves and, at my insistence, spent hours reviewing the relevant medical literature and case studies before informing me solemnly that no, nothing short of some magic miracle could have prevented your utterly inevitable death. This leads me to regretfully conclude that I must seek out some new Force power to save you." <spends rest of movie behaving the same way he did in the sloppy version>

You want to know what someone truly believes, look at how they behave. You don't think Anakin's subsequent behavior indicates that he's terrified that routine precautions wouldn't cut it? Anakin is a man looking for a guarantee, not a rational reassurance that everything would probably turn out ok if he just stayed calm. He's not willing to leave it to fate. Anakin is in the grip of a fear he can't master. Practically every single thing Anakin does for the rest of the movie speaks to the sincerity of his belief that Padme is going to die unless he personally saves her. I just don't grasp how GL was supposed to make that any clearer without stopping the movie for a few minutes to hash out Anakin's entire thought process in a long dialogue sequence. It's a Star Wars movie, not a Star Wars Timothy Zahn novel.

I think that good writing allows some things to remain subtext. And this right here is barely subtext.

 

You just contradicted the point you're trying to make. "...and inconsistencies". So the thread isn't just about plot holes, is it? Inconsistency is quite a broad term. IMO Anakin's conclusions & actions are not consistent with what he sees in his visions. Unless he's supposed to be a fool. What Lucas was trying to portray is not consistent with the way he presented this scenario on screen. Just like the Maul's identity issue we discussed. Not a plot hole. A writing inconsistency.

Not good enough to simply show him believing that it's inevitable. That conclusion needs to be self-evident based on what he sees in the visions. Then we as an audience can put ourselves in his shoes & draw the same conclusions. Which then generates some degree of empathy. AotC did this well. He simply sees his mother in pain. He has no other context or information & he's light years away from her. This leaves him completely helpless & desperate. If the visions of Padme were that vague then his conclusions & decisions would make sense. It was absolutely pointless to include Obi-Wan in that vision. It's crazy that Anakin didn't make a BIG deal about this when he saw it. It was just glossed over. A good test to see if a story element is extraneous is to remove it & see the effect that has. Obi-Wan out of the vision doesn't change anything of any value in the movie. In fact it strengthens Anakin's conclusion that he had no way of even trying to prevent Padme's fate. So Palpatine's sketchy proposal is left as his only hope.

All of your gags can be taken out & Anakin can simply see his wife dying. Just as he saw his mother in pain & nothing else. He'd have no other information to go on. Which leaves him with no clues or any means of thinking through the scenario & desperately trying to avoid it. Not even bothering to do that, given he sees a very unlikely & inexplicable situation involving Obi-Wan removes any empathy we should feel for him. Esp when his alternative plan is presented in such a flimsy half-assed way. And involves killing everyone.

It's exactly what his behavior indicates. Problem is it's undermined by his visions presenting another far more obvious option.

Good point. If his alternative was a guarantee or even something close to that then the problems largely go away. Yet it couldn't be any less of a guarantee. It's the flimsiest most dubious proposal you could ever hear. Told to him by an admitted liar & manipulator, who even casts doubt on the legitimacy of this knowledge himself. It's all so poorly presented. It's one of the reasons that Anakin's turn is so heavily criticised. Lucas didn't sell that Anakin was cornered with absolutely no other options available to him. Which was vital when we see scenes such as the killing of Jedi including Younglings.

 

Whether there 's Obi-wan in the vision or not, the result is the same. Padme is dying in childbirth just like his saw his mother's suffering before she died in his arms. He wasn't strong enough to save her but now he could find a way to stop this from happening, no matter the cost. He went to Yoda for guidance but he didn't like the answer, Palpatine told him what he wanted to hear, that there's a way to save her. Even if there is a tiny chance of it happening, he's willing to take it anyway because he's desperate that he's going to loose her just like he lost his mother. It's been established in TPM that Anakin doesn't like change so him doing whatever it takes to keep Padme with him is consistent with that line of thinking. And it's not like people don't act irrationally when they're desperate or anything.