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PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Ok, so he takes the money & then immediately hands it to Watto? How does that make more sense than simply saying "You keep all of the winnings, I get the parts"? It's actually very foolish for QG to not include the parts in the deal. Watto would be perfectly entitled to sell them to someone else in the meantime if he wanted to. Then QG would say "But you knew I needed those parts!!" "But you didn't include them in the bet. You just said you wanted the cost of the parts."
    But you said QG needs a receipt to verify the deal for the parts. Why? Yet he's happy to take Watto's word RE the Anakin bet.
    That's incorrect. He'd only give up Anakin if Anakin won. In which case the ship is off the table. The ship only goes to Watto if Anakin loses. That was already agreed to & has nothing to do with Anakin's freedom. He also only gets the pod if Anakin loses. That's his only reward from the 2nd free-Anakin bet. He gets the winnings, obviously if Anakin wins. So he wasn't risking Anakin to win the pod, ship & the winnings at all. He risked Anakin only to win the pod. He would've received the ship anyway but obviously he'd get no winnings.

    This highlights very well what a convoluted mess the whole betting scenario is in this movie. Even clever people such as yourself who know the movie back to front don't know what's going on. The most ludicrous part of it was Watto willing to bet a valuable slave for the chance to win some pod that he's never even seen. But here's the kicker. If Anakin wins he doesn't get the super fast championship winning pod. In fact he loses either Shmi or Anakin (depending on the dice roll). Only if Anakin loses does he get the pod. A 2nd rate losing pod that his slave kid built out of spare parts somewhere. And he knows that if Anakin loses it's usually due to him smashing up his pod. So if Watto wins this bet all he's likely to get is a pile of scrap or at best a losing unsuccessful pod. Ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    But who would want parts for a J-type Nubian ship other than them? No one from Naboo is going to be there. The T-14 parts are only for the Nubian type ship. The parts are very expensive per what Watto said. The only way to go is to pay for them and if someone did want the parts, and had plenty of the local currency, what makes you think Watto wouldn't just sell the parts before the race has even started?

    Hyperdrive parts are just that, parts. They can be bought and sold freely. Human slaves cannot be stolen so easily as they can be destroyed by the slave owner. Switching off the explosive is proof that the boy is no longer a slave to Watto.

    And a ship, plus all the money he's betting on Sebulba to win the race.

    If Watto wins the bet he gets: a J-type Nubian ship, all the money that he bets on Sebulba winning the race and a pod that the boy can fix up because he will still be his slave. He already has one pod and he knows that Anakin can fix it and he can fix this second pod, if it meets the same fate. But if it doesn't get smashed up, then he has a replacement pod for the one that Anakin did smash up. He even admits that the boy is good at fixing things and that he saved quite a bit of the pod from being completely demolished.

    Also, he doesn't know that the pod was Anakin's. He thinks that Qui-gon won the pod in a game of chance. From his point of view, Qui-gon's a sucker who has no idea of what he's doing and even jokes that he can wind up making him a slave, if he doesn't stop betting.
     
  3. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    By not simply having the wager as "You keep all of the winnings, I get the parts" QG opened himself up to be scammed. He made the bet "You keep the winnings minus the cost of the parts". Watto can do a dodgy deal with one of his fellow traders or friends. He can "sell" them the parts after he sees QG. Even getting one of those receipts you've mentioned. After the race he informs QG that he sold the parts for a small figure, which was their price. QG can not refute this since he never bothered confirming their price bcs he's a dummy. Watto deducts this token sum from the winnings, gives it to QG & keeps the rest. Thereby adhering to the terms of the bet. He tells QG that the guy up the road purchased the parts, so you'd better go & talk to him. QG sees him & the guy says that his price is some exorbitant figure. Far in excess of any cash he has on hand. QG is now screwed. He has to wait for the next pod race & hope Anakin wins, or he could sell a handmaiden or two into slavery & make some bank that way. All bcs he can't stick to the simplest deal ever: "you keep the winnings, I get the parts".
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  4. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    DD is right , QGJ didn't even get a written contract for this bet , what an idiot .
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    "You keep the winnings, I get the parts" is still not enough because Watto could easily sell those parts in the same scenario you mentioned. The point is that they both enter into a verbal contract and if either one reneged, then the matter goes before Jabba. That's why Watto doesn't try to cheat Qui-gon beyond the chance cube and why he gives in when Qui-gon suggests going to Jabba.
     
  6. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Is this the only plot whole? You guys have been talking about it for a while :p
     
  7. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    No, I'm responding to Sinister's call for QG to've asked for receipts.
    No bcs Watto would've made a deal for the parts. So if he welches on it QG can take him before the Hutts.
    Correct but QG's terms, as you've pointed out is that Watto is to keep all of the winnings minus the cost of the parts. So if he does as I described, gives QG a nominal amount of cash & keeps the rest what case does QG have to argue? The Hutts will ask what the terms were, he will tell them & the Hutts will rule that Watto did what was agreed. They'll then call QG a clown & abuse him for wasting their time on such a silly claim.

    All this has done is show that not only is the dialogue wrong & badly written, your defence of it, that QG chose his words carefully to strengthen his position in the bet is totally wrong also. In fact QG's terms would have the opposite effect. It leaves him without a leg to stand on if Watto had thought of that angle. But of course he wasn't going to bcs Lucas writes his dialogue, & if he didn't recognise his dodgy dialogue when writing it he's not going to imbue a character with the ability to see it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I thought we were supposed to assume all legal contracts in the Outer Rim were verbal [face_laugh]
     
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  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Except that the parts aren't worth betting, which Qui-gon realizes and why he goes with the cost being paid from the winnings. He is covering his bases so that the parts are paid for.

    First, Lucas knows that writing dialogue is not his strong suit. He's flat out admitted it. Second, it's not dodgy or anything. Qui-gon is simply looking to pay for the parts and this is his way of doing it. Watto has no intention of cheating Qui-gon when it comes to money, only with the boy. Watto is a businessman and wants to do business with Qui-gon, but so long as he can get paid for the cost of the hyperdrive, then he'll go along with Qui-gon's terms. Your terms doesn't give him a profit for the parts. Just the profit from the race. He gets nothing if he just trades away the parts for free. This is Watto's greedy nature being exploited by Qui-gon. He wants the winnings and the cost of the parts.
     
  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    What does "not worth betting" even mean? You can bet for anything. The value is irrelevant. Later QG & Watto bet for a home-made podracer. A hyperdrive for a high quality starship is a significant item.
    You know full well that there would be no problem with QG simply saying "If Anakin wins, you keep all of the winnings, I get the parts". If that were the dialogue, & someone challenged it using the argument you're using now, that "the parts aren't worth betting so QG should've said the 'cost' of the parts instead" you'd quite rightly laugh at them.
    Who cares about Watto's intentions? QG had just met him. He doesn't know him. You're saying QG chose his words carefully to protect his position. When it clearly confuses & weakens his position. Watto gets to keep all of the winnings except the "cost" of the parts. Which is a figure he can just make up!
    Huh?? If Anakin wins Watto collects the winnings. He can just give QG a small amount of that which he claims is the "cost" of the parts. Then he's done. If QG can somehow find all of the cash to buy them from his friend they'll share an additional windfall
    Does he? Well that's a shame bcs the only money available are the winnings. He can't have all of the winnings and the cost of the parts. That's what makes the distinction between them stupid.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  11. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Well they still should have drawn up a legal contract and had it notarized , and Lucas should have printed up copies for all the audience and the lights should have come up at that point so we could all read and examine it carefully to fully understand it and not be confused .
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    You don't know what I would and wouldn't laugh at.

    Qui-gon already knows the price of the parts. That's why he is confident that twenty thousand Republic credits is enough and why Obi-wan says that there is nothing of value aboard, that's equal to the parts. Not to mention Watto tells him that buying another ship is cheaper than buying the parts.

    No, Watto can keep the winnings and give Qui-gon nothing for it. That's why Qui-gon chooses his words carefully when he finds out that the Toydarian is willing to split the winnings fifty fifty instead of something like 60-40 or 80-20.He is tempting him with greed.

    Sure, he can. Who says that he can't divide the winnings into two categories? You? What makes you the great arbitrator of how gambling winnings are handled? The winnings goes into his private bank account, for his next gambling venture or buying more slaves or prostitutes and the cost of the parts goes into the register in the store, which goes towards buying more junk from the Jawas. It's like I said, "Say the prize is $500,000 dollars. The parts cost $2,000. Watto takes the two thousand for the parts, keeps the rest for himself."
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Considering how convoluted & messy all of these bets were...not a bad idea[face_idea].
    I'll create a thread titled "What would Sinister laugh at? (Poll Included)". We can argue about it for a few days.
    More of your head-canon creeping in, or have I missed a scene? We witness the whole conversation. No price mentioned.
    He can divide them into 10,000 categories if he likes. The end result is the same: he keeps all of the winnings.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    WATTO: "...Here it is...a T-14 hyperdrive generator!! Thee in luck, I'm the only one hereabouts who has one...but thee might as well buy a new ship. It would be cheaper, I think...Sying of which, how's thee going to pay for all this?"

    QUI-GON: "I have 20,000 Republic dataries."


    QUI-GON: "...Obi-Wan, you're sure there isn't anything of value left on board?"

    OBI-WAN: "A few containers of supplies, the Queen's wardrobe, maybe. Not enough for you to barter with. Not in the amounts you're talking about."

    QUI-GON: "All right. Another solution will present itself. I'll check back."

    Yes, but only one of those methods will actually pay for the parts.
     
  15. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You're just introducing more problems. This dialogue refutes your claim that Watto will only accept money for the parts. QG is asking for goods to pay him with.
    You still haven't pointed out the flaw in simply saying "You keep all of the winnings, I get the parts". Or if you think it necessary "You keep all of the winnings which more than pays for the parts I need, which you then pass on to me." In fact this echoes Anakin's description just a scene earlier: "The prize money would more than pay for the parts they need". Seems a 9 year old can easily articulate this simple arrangement, while QG can't.

    Moving on...

    Anyone catch Pablo's recent tweets RE plotholes? Most suggestions are pretty weak & Pablo bats them away, but he does mention the ones that he thinks are valid plotholes or possible inconsistencies. In terms of the PT they were:

    - Syfo-Dyas
    - Leia remembering Padme

    Possibly also why Yoda goes into exile rather than trying to gather together surviving Jedi & build a resistance movement. Which IMO wasn't established well in the PT. Obi-Wan was watching out for Luke & could train him one day if necessary. What was Yoda's excuse?

    I also expanded on what could be a plothole in TESB.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Not really. They could barter with someone else to get the money and then use that money to pay Watto.

    Anakin said that the prize money would pay for the parts. Right. Think it through. Qui-gon states that Watto keeps the winnings and that he can deduct from that for the parts.

    "You keep all of the winnings which more than pays for the parts I need, which you then pass on to me."

    Which is the same thing as, "If we win you keep all the winnings, minus the cost of the parts I need."

    Let me ask, are you a grammar teacher?
     
  17. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Haven't been on this thread before. Best way to see my statments is to read my posts.
     
  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Lucas badly needed one.
    Thanks for letting us know o_O
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Okay, let's get an expert opinion.

    @anakinfansince1983 In your opinion, was the line Lucas used in TPM, "If we win you keep all the winnings, minus the cost of the parts I need." grammatically correct? Or is what Darth Downunder proposed? "You keep all of the winnings which more than pays for the parts I need, which you then pass on to me."
     
  20. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    False proposition Sinister. “You keep all of the winnings minus the cost of the parts” is gibberish. Given they’re also Watto’s parts. I said from the start it should simply be “You keep all of the winnings, I get the parts”. That’s the comparison. Inescapable fact is that no matter what, Watto does keep all of the winnings.

    & yes @anikanfansince1983, we do have too much time on our hands.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    The old EU, specifically the Luceno books, addressed this one fairly well, I thought.

    "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future, the past..."

    In some cases I don't agree. Take this one for example:

    "Why assume it's easy? Or something you'd entrust someone else or something else to do?"

    Because I don't see any reason to assume it's too hard for a droid or even the autopilot to do it. Is Holdo really that talented? Is 3PO really that incompetent? What we see in the film actually does look fairly easy. Automating the process should be doable. We can program machines to do more complicated stuff right now in the real world.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  22. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Well I doubt that Watto is in the habit of giving spaceship parts away for free , so yes - he's not getting the money for them , so that's a minus , I had no trouble understanding it .

    .

    .
     
  23. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    He's not? The terms QG should be proposing is that Watto gets to keep all of the winnings & hand over the parts. A deal which puts Watto well ahead. It's so simple. Instead QG proposes that Watto not keep all of the winnings. He's to only keep the winnings minus the cost of the parts. A figure that Watto can just pull out of his blue rear end. Presumably he must give that "cost" to QG & only keep the rest. QG then immediately hands that money back to Watto for the parts. Then Watto gives him the parts. What convoluted nonsense compared to just "You keep the winnings, I get the parts" !
    That line doesn't even come vaguely close to solving the many problems with Leia remembering Padme, & what she remembers about her. Rather than digging up that decomposed dead horse & flogging it some more, feel free to read the discussion here if you're interested.
     
  24. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    I don't know what you're talking about , you're making it awfully complicated .
    It's really very simple : Watto isn't getting the money he would normally get for the parts so in business terms that would go in the minus column .

    .

    .
     
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  25. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It's not a plot-hole.

    I admit there are some. Like Jango being the template for the clones, yet when he is seen working for Dooku it doesn't raise alarm bells.

    But this isn't one of them.