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PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    1. Yes I think in TPM, the tracing is explained (unlike in the ST lol). It's just when you watch AOTC and ROTS, we seem to be shown that Jedi communicate not on a general communication galactic network, but on their own frequency via the Jedi Temple's beacon. It is apparently only accessible from within the Temple itself. It is my understanding that Bail Organa, also has access to this in ROTS only because Yoda is with him?

    For instance Obi Wan is only discovered on Geonosis because he is spotted by a local. Not because they trace his signal. So it seems unlikely that the Trade Federation could trace a signal to the Jedi Temple. And why would it matter, since surely the Jedi would have sent a ship and help quickly?

    I thought when watching TPM, that actually Maul tracked them down because they spiked a message from Naboo itself (not on Jedi frequencies) to the Queen's ship? It wasn't the Jedi's fault. Qui Gon mentions it right?

    2. Yes I guess I was just making a suggestion. But given that this seemed to be a place of scum and villainy where the Republic failed to do anything (unlike the Empire), couldn't Qui Gon have harmless stolen the parts for the greater good? I mean is Qui Gon using the Force to manipulate that dice with Watto not manipulation? Surely that is not the Jedi way? As for the handmaidens, as a temporary situation or trick to acquire the parts of ship.

    3. Or sell the ship for an old vessel. Or even barter whatever little they had for a ride to a Republic planet? The ship could still be utilised for parts? Watto himself was impressed by its design and willing to accept it as collateral.

    4. But the droidekas had surrounded the two Jedi and the Senator. Sure the other Jedi were making their way down to the arena. The battle droids were also unleashed too. But the droidekas had been surrounding and in firing position. Could they not just have killed them on site, since they were already in position?

    5. But Yoda clearly senses trouble and requests the Commander for a ship. Clonetroopers always obey orders without question. But could Yoda not have requested other support troopers to join him and seal off the hangar? He himself told Master Windu that Dooku could not be allowed to escape? Amidala clearly rallies troopers to make their way to the hangar. Yoda is at the Forward Command Centre, and the chief general in the battle. Isn't the objective to stop Dooku? Take ten squads of troopers if you have to. The Jedi were shown to topple against overwhelming numbers in the arena, see my meaning? I did love that lesson that Yoda learned that he should have sacrificed his friends for the cause (taught to Luke in ESB).

    6. But the Jedi being peacekeepers and not as overwhelmed as in AOTC (which we are told), in the TPM, the Jedi discover an ancient enemy, the Council could surely have dispatched more Jedi to assist or simply observe? Why were they able to send two Jedi then?

    7. Yes I suppose Grievous was overconfident. But he sure seemed to run in a hurry from his ship at the start of the film. And Obi Wan just took out his personal guards. Why not obliterate the Jedi there and then, since he's surrounded by an entire army of battle droids? I wonder in an alternate universe where Grievous discovers Sidious betrayed them, him leading the droid army against Palpatine haha?

    8. Why would the CIS council kill Yoda? I'm pretty sure Yoda could have persuaded them. And they're not going to be able to kill him, they respected Count Dooku and followed him.

    Don't get me wrong I love the Star Wars prequels! Just some humorous questions!
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Pretty much. This falls in line with what Bail said in RO and what Leia repeats in ANH.

    Take note that Obi-wan is spotted before he sends the transmission out.

    Qui-gon states that it is a bait to establish a connection trace. Meaning that the Federation could track them right to their location, if they replied. But as we learn, Maul was able to trace them to the planet of Tatooine, but not to their exact location. Which is why he spends half the morning trying to find them via probe droids. He even says to Sidious that if the trace was correct, he will find them quickly. Meaning there's a tiny bit of doubt that he got it right, but is very confident that he did.

    Qui-gon senses that Watto has a rigged chance cube, which is why he uses the Force to make it land on blue. Look at the surprised expression on his face when he loses. Look at the cube itself. It had more red sides than blue. And again, selling people is human trafficking. That's not the Jedi way.

    Again, who is going to want a ship that has a damaged hyperdrive? Would you buy a car that is missing its engine? Or an incomplete engine? You'd be better off buying a brand new one. Watto would accept it as collateral because he had a compatible hyperdrive that he could easily install.



    @:52 seconds, as we see the Droid Army rush into the arena, we still see the Droidekas surrounding the captives. They then turn and start advancing on the other Jedi, right as Anakin guides the Reek away from them. The problem is the droids aren't smart. Stormtroopers would have opened fire, but the Droidekas are like the other droids, not too bright.

    Note that Anakin and Obi-wan had support with them, but their LAAT gunship was blown up. Who is to say that didn't happen with Yoda's ship?

    The Council doesn't know who or what Maul is. He may not be a Sith. They felt confident enough that two Jedi would be enough to determine if this was a Sith, or another wannabe. Their job was to deal with Maul and protect Padme.

    Grievous runs because he is a coward. He'll fight when the odds are in his favor, but when they aren't, he turns tail. As to Obi-wan, they had an old score to settle.This wasn't their first rodeo against each other.

    [​IMG]

    Dooku was Sith Lord, Yoda is a Jedi Master. They feared Dooku because he was representing Sidious. They didn't respect him. They'd try to kill Yoda because he's the enemy. Hell, as soon as they realized that Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker, they realized that they were in trouble and the Battle Droids and Niemodian guards in the room moved to attack him.
     
  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    No, Qui-Gon said he can't fight a war FOR Padme.
    In other words, he and Obi-Wan alone can't fight the whole TF army and armada.
    However he very much is in INVOLVED in a war.
    Padme is fighting the TF forces and she enlists the help of the Gungans and she also has the Jedi helping her.
    So they are fighting in a war.

    Since several people here and other threads have brought up that Valorum sent the two Jedi to Naboo IN SECRET to act as ambassadors and this was apparently super illegal!
    And that is why the Jedi don't appear as witnesses in the senate, despite it would be logical that they do so.
    So if sending Jedi as ambassadors without senate ok was that bad, sending two jedi into actual fighting would be much worse.
    So people that argue that the Jedi need senate permission for ever last thing, can't turn around and argue that the Jedi suddenly has a great deal of freedom and can act as they see fit.

    And that was by Valorum , who was the chancellor. At this time, there is no chancellor and the senate is busy electing a new one.
    So it is unlikely that the Jedi asked the assembled senate to give them permission to send Jedi back to Naboo and fight the TF forces. And it is even more unlikely that the TF senator would not object to this.

    [/QUOTE]

    I know why these things happen, the plot needs it.
    I am showing why this is contrived writing because quite often, events happen or people do things for no reason other than, plot needs it.
    Why did the TF remove their blockade? No reason is given in the film so plot needed it.
    Why is Anakin going to a war zone? Again no reason given, so again plot needed it.
    Why do the JC only send two jedi to against the TF army/armada and possible sith lord?
    Still no reason given so plot needed it.

    And the question is simple, did the JC think that just two Jedi could deal with the TF armada, army, a possible sith lord all the while protecting Padme and a nine year old boy?
    Yes or no?
    If yes, they must think this is very simple and thus this defuses tension.
    If no, they are sending two Jedi and small boy to their deaths.
    And if no, why don't they send more people?

    Again I point to the pilot briefing scene in ANH, it works quite well and the rebels send more than two fighters to deal with the DS. And this makes sense because the writer takes the time to set up the situation. Here, it is just glossed over in the hope that we don't think about it too much.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  4. Scott109

    Scott109 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2016
    Mace Windu knocks Palpatine’s lightsaber out of the window, but Palpatine still inexplicably wields the same lightsaber in his duel with Yoda.
     
  5. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    He has a spare.

    In TCW we even see him using both at once.

    Anyway, it's not like him having more than one contradicts anything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    [​IMG]

    The subject of two sabers was first addressed in the novelization and in the BTS book.
     
  7. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    But that's what I said haha. Obi Wan is spotted in AOTC. But in TPM, surely the Jedi transmitter could be utilised and is less traceable?

    Also I wouldn't consider TCW as canon over the movies. For me they are entertaining, but as far as I'm concerned, Grievous only meets Obi Wan (and Anakin) in ROTS. And Anakin also doesn't meet Dooku every week either.

    I think it really is a case of Grievous being overconfident and wanting to kill this Jedi slime out of pride. In a way I would like to see Grievous' skills against other Jedi demonstrated to further showcase his power (although frankly the fight was great in ROTS against Obi Wan). It just seemed like his droids had the right idea, shoot him. Now!

    I don't think the CIS council realised who Darth Vader was. They merely realised that the Sith were trying to kill them, and ordered the guards to fire in defence. It was just a suggestion that Yoda etc could have mustered help. But of course, that would only play into Palpatine's hands with the Jedi being the enemy of the Republic.

    Again we can't assume Yoda had support troops. We can only go by what we SEE. I am just saying HE himself told Windu and the others after the Arena battle that Dooku should not escape. So if that's the priority and he sensed the trouble in the hangar, if he asks for a ship, surely take backup! But I still loved the movie.

    I also loved the tie in to ESB. Yoda didn't sacrifice his friends, and thus Dooku escaped. Thus he implored Luke not to make that mistake in ESB.

    As for Qui Gon and the dice, I know he did all he could, but perhaps it still is against the code. He was not their to free anyone. And what Watto did was wrong, but Qui Gon uses the Force to his favor, the same as a rigged cube.

    As for the Droidekas, it's just they seemed to have Padme, Anakin and Obi Wan surrounded. It seemed illogical (droids must be logical and felt no fear) to back away when they had the advantage. It could be the high ground argument I guess. I jest I jest. Honestly I loved the Arena battle. For me, the prequels are great. I think if you adjust the dialogue of the romance, these are truly epic films.
     
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Federation would pick up the signal, but could not unlock what was said. They could then triangulate said signal.

    You wouldn't, but Lucas did. The point is that Grievous and Obi-wan had history together. This was why he wanted to fight him.

    They know who Anakin is as he's been the face of the Jedi throughout the war and has a reputation. Not to mention that he just rescued the Chancellor, which was all over the news. Not to mention that the Separatist Council have all met him in the past.

    Yes, we can assume that he took back up and said back up was killed.

    That was not the message. There's a difference between saving Anakin and Obi-wan vs saving Han and Leia. Yoda made a decision that every other Jedi would make and was the right one. What Luke wanted to do was rush off before he was ready and was making an emotional decision and not a logical, rational one. That's why Yoda doesn't chide Luke for coming back late after rescuing Han.

    Qui-gon's mission was not to free slaves. That's why he said that he was not there to free slaves. He frees Anakin because he might be the Chosen One, as he was told that he would find him by Serenity. And what Qui-gon did was not a violation of the Code as he is not seeking profit from gambling.

    The droids aren't logical. They're following their programming. They were programmed to fire when ordered to do so and when the Reek rushes by them, they turn to their secondary programming which was attack intruders.
     
  9. Padema

    Padema Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 11, 2007
    I'm not sure if this is the place to ask, but I didn't want to start a whole new thread for this one tiny question. And I thought maybe it was an inconsistency in the script. In The Phantom Menace, Padme asks who else besides Palpatine had been nominated for the election to replace Valorum. Her head of security tells her that Bail Antilles of Alderaan was one of them. I've wondered if that was supposed to mean Bail Organa. I sort of have a personal canon/interpretation that it is the same person and he took Breha's last name (Organa) when they got married. :)

    Also didn't the captain of the Tantive spaceship have the last name of Antilles. And also that was Wedge's last name.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Apparently Antilles is like both Jones and Smith for us are. Certainly Legends portrayed it that way:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Antilles
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jon_Antilles
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Henrietya_Antilles
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Indiana_Jones

    "Jon Antilles" is like "Jon Smith". "Corellia Antilles" is like "Indiana Jones".

    While he's Bail Organa's "relative by marriage" (through Breha, who he's related to):

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Breha_Organa
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bail_Antilles

    they are not the same guy. They could have been, but changes necessitated that they weren't.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
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  11. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I was under the impression that Lucas was showing in ROTS that Obi Wan was meeting Grievous for only the second time (having just met both him and Anakin on the Invisible Hand). You can tell this from the language used to Anakin about his reputation. And to Obi Wan on Utapau when he says "You fool, I've been trained in your Jedi arts, by Count...Doo-ku." And Obi Wan certainly seems surprised at first when his arms split up with four lightsabers.

    I personally take FILM canon above anything else. TCW is enjoyable, but I prefer in my head that only the films take place haha.

    I think most of your answers are based on non film canon or speculation. I can see we both love Star Wars. But I'm only going by film canon. I don't recall seeing HoloNet News scenes where the CIS know who "Darth Vader" truly is. I saw it as them genuinely not realising Lord Sidious' betrayal until it happened. An epic scene in conjunction with Palpatine's speech and that awesome music.

    As for Yoda versus Dooku, I don't think we can assume anything, since we do not see any clone troopers or Jedi come with Yoda, or outside the hangar. It is only when Padme arrives with "help" who she requested that trooper to find, that we see reinforcements. Perhaps Yoda considered this Jedi business, but he seemed to go against his own words to Windu and other Masters just after he rescued them. If Dooku was the priority, take as many troops as you can!

    As for Yoda's words in ESB, I thought it fit tbh in AOTC. By opting to save Obi Wan and Anakin, Yoda thereby let Dooku escape. You can see Dooku's fear unable to best his old Master. That is no doubt why he toppled the column, gambling that Yoda would be noble and not abandon the two Jedi, thus buying him time to escape.

    I'm not sure about Qui Gon and the dice. I love him as a character and the fact he believed of being in the moment. It's just did the Jedi Master have a mandate to free one slave, by using the Force to manipulate the (fixed die) in his favour? Perhaps we ought to discuss this with the Hutts. I'm sure they would have something to say about this...

    Also not a plot hole, but I would have loved it had the Senator of Alderaan been the one to propose the Emergency Powers. Would have given it weight given future events...

    I love the Prequels.
    I love Star Wars
    The films you give me, I shall watch with great interest!
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Lucas was a bit indecisive about Bail's last name as early on in writing ANH, it was Antilles. It was later changed to Organa, but Lucas never used that until he wrote AOTC. I think that he had intended Bail Antilles to be Leia's adopted father, but then changed it after it was pointed out that Organa was used a lot in the EU and merchandise.

    When Lucas originally wrote ROTS, that was the case. Then TCW came about and this was retconned. Lucas had stated that the show was under his control and he was involved in it quite a bit, which is why it has remained as part of the canon after the sale to Disney.

    They know who Anakin Skywalker is and when they see Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker, they know that they're screwed. He has his head lowered when he walks in and then raises it when the attack begins.

    We don't see the LAAT ship when Padme arrives and given that the last one we did see was blown up, it isn't difficult to put two and two together.

    But you're taking it out of context. Yoda warned Luke to not go, because he was in danger of being killed or turned, before he was ready. He was making an emotional decision based on fear. Yoda saving Anakin and Obi-wan wasn't an emotional decision, but a logical one. A compassionate choice made and the right one.

    Qui-gon did not have a mandate to free any slaves. He only worked to free Anakin, because he might be the Chosen One. A mandate to free all slaves would require consent of the Jedi Council and the Senate, to do so and topple Jabba's regime. The Hutts are not against a slave owner gambling away their slaves, since that's what Gardulla did with the Skywalkers when she lost them to Watto. But they are against a Jedi coming in and use their Lightsabers to free slaves.
     
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The CIA uses secrecy, stealth, and subterfuge, but nobody thinks that the CIA is extinct. Darth Bane made the Sith operate like the CIA, and millenia later an unknown Sith Lord switched to operating like the illuminati, and 1000 years after that the movies happen.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Exactly. In a vacuum, going off to save his friends was the correct decision. The problem was that Luke was rushing off to face Vader with anger and hate still in his heart and was extremely likely to succumb to the dark side. In the end he was in fact able to resist the temptation, but at that point the only way out was for him to attempt to commit suicide, causing his friends to need to rescue him. Luke himself accomplished nothing for his friends (people argue that bringing Artoo was essential, but that was pure luck and had nothing to do with Luke's intention). And if he had turned to the dark side, he would have destroyed everything, just as Yoda said. Given that his friends' fates were uncertain and not yet decided, Luke's actions were unjustified given the extreme risk to which he was exposing the entire galaxy.

    When Yoda saved Obi-Wan and Anakin, he knew for certain that they were about to be crushed to death, and that his inaction would certainly forfeit their lives. Given that context, it would be obscene for him to play into Dooku's evil scheme and condemn his comrades to death as part of some utilitarian sacrifice.
     
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Yoda was miles away, in the midst of a battle. Sensed danger for Kenobi and Skywalker and took off.

    Why did none of the three of them make any attempt to cripple Dooku's escape ship in that hangar they were so keen to reach? Why does Yoda waste time with a war of words and the ship just sitting there when ensuring Dooku could not escape was the objective
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
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  16. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Couldn’t Yoda have simply Force-shoved them out of the way? Wouldn’t have taken more than a second, then he could disable Dooku’s ship.
     
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  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Yoda actually walks right past the escape ship in order to swap dry, understated ripostes with Dooku.

    Nobody thought about attaching a homing beacon to it either.
     
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  18. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    No, he doesn't:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Yoda can't get to the ship without Dooku being in the way.

    And even if he could, Yoda wants to duel Dooku, to incapacitate or kill him, he wants to end this before Dooku can leave the hangar. And he would have succeeded if Dooku hadn't directly threatened Anakin and Obi-Wan's lives, forcing Yoda to break off and save them.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Isn't that the ship on Yoda's left, about 10 feet away from him, whereas Dooku is more like 50 ft away?
     
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  20. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    Perhaps my sense of scale was a bit off. But my point is that Dooku could easily intercept Yoda no matter what, and it's not like Yoda's equipped with explosives or something that can stop the ship before Dooku can stop him.
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    He's equipped with a lightsaber though - a quick slash to an engine is all it takes.

    And if Dooku tries to stop him, he can use the same lightsaber to block Dooku.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
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  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    And he could use the force to bring the ceiling down on the ship or the tunnel it would leave from, which the Jedi all had to pass in order to get to the exterior landing platform

    The Jedi did not want Dooku to escape. That was their objective. Denying him the means of escape should have been the priority. Not wanting to duel with him and either incapacitate or kill him. That was their last resort.

    Yoda even uses the ship to take the high ground on at least one occasion.
     
  23. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    I found a better shot illustrating where Dooku and Yoda are positioned:
    [​IMG]

    So for Yoda to get from where he is to the ship necessitates going past Dooku, who's one or two steps from the ramp.

    Additionally, when we see the Solar Sailor launch, there's no obvious engine:
    [​IMG]

    So even if Yoda could have reached the ship, there's no clear engine to strike, and Dooku will be on him in seconds.

    Edit: Yeah, Yoda could try pulling the ceiling down, but as we see with Dooku, this takes some effort and concentration, leaving him open to attack.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The aforementioned "bouncing off the ship in the middle of the fight" was the sort of opportunity he should have been taking.
     
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  25. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    But once he's bounced on, what can he do? Ignore Dooku, and try and look for an obvious weakness? Leaving himself open for Dooku to finish him off?
     
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