PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

This discussion here suggests the Jedi are a collective of soldiers who were in dereliction of duty for not gunning down Dooku or blowing his ship out of the sky at all costs; the Jedi are peacekeepers who respond in an attempt to abate the crisis without bloodshed if possible. The big ass battle outside was where Windu and the army was supposed to be; Yoda broke off to trail after Kenobi and Skywalker after he sensed a disturbance in the force where they were concerned (the Jedi came to Geonosis to rescue Obi Wan after all). If any of the Jedi had been successful in literally "disarming" Dooku, they would have taken him into custody to stand trial for his crimes against the Republic, not kill him. Throughout the war that ensued, the Jedi still were determined to capture the Separatists and allow the Senate to determine what their punishment was to be . Arguing about them being idiots or after glory and gain is off base either way.

 

Stopping the war before it begins, thereby preventing the deaths of millions, has nothing to do with glory. It is the Jedi raison d'etre. Yoda chose to permit Dooku to escape and make war, dooming millions of innocent bystanders, for the sake of two Jedi who might have died because of some falling rocks. This was set up by choosing to directly engange him in a duel before actually removing the means of escape.

Immediately prior to Yoda intervening in Kenobi and Skywalker's duel with Dooku, Yoda is seen taking the most obvious strategy of bringing down the nearest TF droid command ship, preventing it from escaping and denying it to the enemy.

But then at the hangar, Yoda double's down on Obi Wan and Anakin's failed attempt to subdue or destroy Dooku personally and passes up the opportunity to black the hangar bay exit, cripple Dooku's ship, or similarly the prevent him accessing it, in favour of proving themselves stronger than he is.

If you say so. It doesn't change the fact that Vader and Tarkin changed tact to using the princess to lead them to the rebel base. It was now their only chance of doing so.

Blowing the Falcon up does not make sure that nobody goes anywhere. What's with the expletives deleted?

He sensed Skywalker and Obi Wan were in danger.

Their stated objective was to prevent the war from even starting. They knew that if Dooku escaped then the war would widen. They had no practical or ideological reason to ignore his means of escape and only engage him personally.

 

Yes, true. But that's not unfortunate for my argument because he said that before the circumstances changed.

Not likely. It was more of a statement than an objective made by the Jedi Council.

How come Anakin and Obi-Wan coordinated that mission with Yoda as they had no communication way before the arena and after? Who told them that it's essential they capture Dooku?

No.

There!

This is true, but it's also absurd. I doubt that happened before or after in SW. The only thing that comes to my mind is Kylo Ren waiting for Rey and Finn in the forest. Why didn't he destroyed the Falcon? I'm sure there's some reason, but he had no practical or ideological reason to ignore their mean of escape and only engage them personally.

Anakin and Obi-Wan thought they could manage to capture or kill Dooku. Yoda, apparently, thought the same. And AOTC taught us that the Jedi have become arrogant. That's it.

 

When Vader sensed Obi-Wan, his plan was to shut off the tractor beam, not escape.
And given what Obi-Wan said to Luke, I have a feeling that he sensed that Vader was there and that it was the end for him.
He wasn't sure and probably hoped that he was wrong. But he did take out his weapon before he came across Vader. So I think he had a strong sense of what was coming.

Right, cause Cloud City to go up in flames when he trying to set a trap for Luke.
Real smart, not!
This is what a moron would do.

Vader made a deal rather than trying to take Cloud City by force. Because he is setting a trap.
Causing a huge fight and throwing everything into chaos would work against that goal.
Also, the deal that Lando agrees to, at first only involved Luke.
It did not include giving Han to Boba, or that Vader would take Leia and Chewie.
Vader knew, correctly, that if he pushed Lando too far, too fast, he would resist and things would go out of control.
So he alters the deal, bit by bit. And he does push Lando too far but by that stage, Luke is on his way and he feels he has won.

Again the deal he originally agreed to did not involve giving Han up to Boba or letting Vader take Leia and Chewie. When he was pushed too far, he acted.
Had Vader tried to push too far at the start, the deal could likely have fallen through immediately and the trap had failed totally.
And why would he check? His own people told him that they had fixed it.
Vader was subtle, not the brute-force idiot you want him to be, and made sure that Lando's people didn't notice.

Yes he does, he orders Lando to give him Leia and Chewie and take them to his ship, that was before Luke arrived.

From ESB;

Yoda's own words condemn him.
Obi-Wan and Anakin fought Dooku to try and stop him from leaving.
That Yoda saves them and let's Dooku escape, that makes it plain that he does NOT honor what they fought for.

I understand quite well, what you don't understand is that this is an attachment, and this is something that you have argued that the Jedi should not and must not have.
An ideal Jedi should not hesitate an instant in letting a fellow Jedi die if it served the greater good.
That is the Jedi motto, always for the greater good!
Saving five people, that you know over letting ten strangers die, that is totally against the Jedi code, rules etc.
At least how the you say the PT Jedi are supposed to be.

Nope, he knows he failed. he knows he let his feelings get in the way of doing what was required.
He let his emotions cloud his judgement and now many innocent will die because of this.

Right, so Padme would let a possibly injured or dying Anakin behind and focus on completing the mission.
And so Anakin should do the same. And had he violated his duty to try and save Padme, he would have been expelled from the Jedi order.
But Yoda can apparently violate his duty and let Dooku escape to save two of his friends and this was apparently fine and dandy with the Jedi code.
Don't you see the massive double standard here?

[/QUOTE]

This argument is not only totally lacking in sense, it is also in total opposition to how the PT Jedi are trained, the no-attachment thing and all that.
The Jedi are trained to disregard any personal feelings and follow the code, their duty.
For them to ignore duty and choose to save people they are close to. That is a no-no. This would be selfish, it would be the Jedi saving friends over others. Them not wanting to face a loss and letting other people die instead.
That is why the Jedi are taken from their parents at such a young age and are allowed no contact.
Why they are trained to not be attached, to not feel sad or grieve when someone dies. To not feel anger or outrage at death. Just accept it as natural and move on.
Why they can't have families or children. As they would distract from duty and following orders and acting for the greater good.

And here, Yoda was faced with two people vs millions or even billions dead in the spreading war.
And he choose to be selfish and saved his two fellow Jedi.
Not only does Yoda's own words condemn him, but so does all the arguments that I have seen here about how the PT Jedi should be. That they should never save their friends over doing their duty.
The Sith know this full well.
They would know that the Jedi duty to the republic and the many that would die in the war, that would make it hard for them to ignore it.
Dooku was desperate, he realized he could not beat Yoda and was looking for any way to create a distraction so he could escape. And he was lucky that Yoda choose to ignore his duty and save them.
And that Yoda had been an idiot and not brought any soldiers or tried to disable his ship.

Yoda stopping Dooku at the cost of Anakin and Obi-Wan, there is no glory or personal gain here.
It would be him doing his duty in the face of a hard choice. It would be him being a good Jedi and not letting his feelings get in the way. It would be about his choosing the good of the many over the good of the few.

Lastly, you notice that after RotS. Vader and Palpatine know that Obi-Wan and Yoda are out there.
Do they at any point round up innocent and start hurting them in an effort to draw them out?
Not that I know.
Vader hurt Han and Leia because he knew Luke was not a full Jedi yet and thus he had not yet mastered full control. And he choose them because he knew/figured that Luke would sense it. Had he tortured some random strangers, Luke would likely sense nothing.

The DS2 trap was for the rebels, not Luke and Palpatine was quite surprised to learn that Luke was there.
He had not sensed him nor predicted that Luke would show up at that time.
What he did later was to goad Luke into getting angry. Because again, Luke was not yet a Jedi and had not fully gained control over his emotions.

@Visivious Drakarn

Nope, they haven't, stopping Dooku was and is vital and that is why Yoda show up
Mace said, in the scene where Obi-Wan made his report from Geonosis, that they will deal with DOOKU.
Yoda later reinforces that notion, Dooku is their biggest goal and most important target.

Your idea that Yoda goes to that hangar just to save Anakin and Obi-Wan, is not stated anywhere in the film.
What IS stated, by Yoda no less, is how important it is to stop Doooku from leaving.
So that he showed up is to stop Dooku, this fits will earlier dialogue and him being there can be explained that either he sensed something and knew where Dooku was. Or, he got info via comms.

Again no, at least twice, two of the most prominent Jedi make a point of saying that Dooku must be dealt with.
So he is important.

Again, Anakin heard Mace say "We will deal with Dooku" so he knows that Dooku is an important target for the Jedi.
And both of them know full well that he is, you know, the LEADER of the seps. And neutralizing him would leave the seps leaderless. Which is of rather massive importance with a war breaking out.

Also, the ships they are in would have radios or some form of comm system so what Yoda said, could and should have been relayed to others. To let them know that stopping Dooku was important.
If you argue that Yoda never did relay that bit, then it only shows more idiocy.
And it is also quite possible that the ship Anakin and Obi-wan was in, also told the command post that they had spotted Dooku and were pursuing him.
If they did not, that is again stupid.

Yes

However, difference is that Obi-Wan and Anakin were on a single ship, with some soldiers and Padme.
They had no help nearby. And once they get there, their ship and the crew are killed, so they have just themselves.

Yoda was at the forward command post and could order ships and soldiers around.
Yoda could easily bring soldiers and ships with him. He must have used at least one ship to get there. So where was that?
Why didn't he leave that there and order it to destroy the chute or something?
Plot demands it.

Anakin and Obi-wan try to shoot down Dooku with rockets but they are out. Why they conveniently forget the other weapons their craft has in not explained. More plot demands.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Actually, it does have to do with glory. Glory isn't about adulation or reward. Glory is about ignoring the small picture in favor of the larger one. For Yoda to ignore two Jedi who are in need of help, in favor of stopping the war, it is about having a notable achievement. To ignore people in trouble is to basically say, "It's all okay to let people die so long as I prevented a war. I stopped the Sith from carrying out there plans at the expense of two people who were helpless." It is murder because he refused to help them. He'd be just as guilty as Dooku for their deaths. At this rate, you might as well say that the Jedi shouldn't help anyone during the war, because it allowed Dooku to keep getting away. You're asking the Jedi to not care about anyone by saying that.

Note that Obi-wan doesn't chastise Yoda for saving him, nor Anakin for doing so later on when he was helpless and doesn't rush to get Palpatine out of there.

I'll swear if I want to. As to blowing up the Falcon, it ensures that Lando doesn't go anywhere.

He sensed Obi-wan before he went to shut down the tractor beam. He sensed him aboard the Falcon, which he doesn't even bother to search himself and instead walks out acting as if he came in the backdoor.

He knew that Vader was there, yes. But he didn't know that he would die, much less run into him. There was no guarantees.

He had his Lightsaber in hand once, then put it away before drawing it again.

I didn't say blow up the city. I said blow up the ships. Luke would still come regardless of seeing a fire. In fact, that would ensure that he does land.

My point is that Vader make mistakes and one of them was letting the Falcon go unmolested. He had plenty of time to disable the ship beyond just the hyperdrive. He could have also had a squadron of Stormtroopers waiting. This is is a guy who was a general in the war and he's acting like a private.

Somebody knew because the city's central computer had it logged in that the hyperdrive was still inoperative. What Vader should have ordered was an explosive put in place that would destroy the Falcon if anyone took off, or had a squad of troopers on board.

He knows that Luke has just landed and intentionally put them in the hallway to ensure that they were seen and that he would go into the carbonite chamber.

VADER: "Good. See to it that he finds his way here. Calrissian, take the princess and the Wookiee to my ship."

He's moving them to his shuttle as bait for Luke. That's the only reason he changes his mind about letting them stay.

No, it doesn't. Because there are different reasons involved in both situations.

LUKE: "But I can help them! I feel the Force!"

OBI-WAN: "But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."

YODA: "Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure at the cave!"

Luke was told that the reason he shouldn't go was due to his being only half trained and going into a dangerous situation much like his father had, when he went to help Shmi. They believed that he would make the same mistake his father did by using the dark side to fight and defeat Vader. That's why they do not condemn him for rescuing Han later on. They want him to be better prepared to face the Sith and he wasn't. That is different from what Dooku was doing because Yoda was in control of the Force and made a conscious, rational decision that was what the Jedi were all about. The Skywalker men both acted out of fear when they went off on a rescue jaunt.

That's not the Jedi motto. They don't even have a motto. What they do is show compassion for all living beings, regardless of them being total strangers or friends. Part of compassion is to help them. Yoda is not attached to Anakin and Obi-wan, anymore than he is to Padme or Chewie or his clone commander, Gree. Nor does the Jedi Code state that the Jedi cannot help each other in a situation like that. It doesn't not forbid Jedi from helping those that they're friends with. What it forbids is a Jedi who acts emotionally with the Force.

YODA: "Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger... fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

That is why they must confront themselves without emotion when going into a place that is strong with the dark side.

SERENITY: "You must enter the valley of extinction. Pass through without emotion, without attachment, for you will see all our faces there, and they will seduce you."

CONFUSION: "For we are Confusion."

ANGER: "Anger."

SADNESS: "Sadness."

JOY: "Joy."

SERENITY: "And Serenity."

When Anakin turns, it is because he lets his emotions control him, rather than he controls his emotions. He does so out of selfish need because Padme brings him joy and he believes that his life is serene with her in it. But his anger and sadness is what motivates him to hold onto her, because his feelings for her are confusing him. When Yoda saves the Jedi, he does so because he understands those emotions and has mastered his control over them. He did not act emotionally. He acted logically. This is why he is says that he will save Anakin in his confrontation with Sidious and will give up his own life to do so and he will give up his chance to stop the Jedi Purge before it can happen. This is why he is given the great gift of retaining his identity. He did the right thing on Geonosis and on Moraband. If he hadn't, he would not have been given that gift.

It's not a double standard. Anakin wanted to go back because he was emotionally unstable at that moment. His mother was brutally tortured and died in his arms. He just watched a few dozen Jedi be killed and he's all emotionally worked up so when the love of his life is in danger, he reacts emotionally. That's why he rushes Dooku in the hangar. Yoda wasn't emotional. He's 874 years old and has been doing this for a long time. This isn't his first rodeo. He's been in situations like that before. That's why Yoda was correct and Anakin wasn't.

Jim Kirk would agree and also disagree.

SAREK: "Kirk... I thank you. What you have done-"

KIRK: "What I have done... I had to do."

SAREK: "But at what cost? Your ship, your son."

KIRK: "If I hadn't tried, the cost would've been my soul."

SPOCK: "My father says that you have been my friend. You came back for me."

KIRK: "You would have done the same for me."

SPOCK: "Why would you do this?"

KIRK: "Because the needs of the one... outweigh the needs of the many."

Kirk was right to do this. He and his senior officers broke nine counts of Starfleet regulations, knowing full well that they'd be severely punished, all in the name of helping one individual who needed help. Even going so far as to destroy his ship to keep it out of Klingon hands.

The Temple beacon was being used. Once they discovered that it was changed by Yoda and Obi-wan, they realized that's not going to work. And so they proceeded to seek out rumors of the Jedi's presences on worlds, and then used their compassion against them. Vader attacked many locations on Lothal, in a bid to force the Rebel cell to reveal themselves, including their Jedi. Likewise Vader, remembering his own experiences with his mother, chose to torture Han and Leia in order to draw Luke out of hiding. Palpatine knew that Luke would seek Vader out in time. Yes, he was surprised about not sensing him, but that is irrelevant. He knows that so long as Luke has compassion for those that he loves, he can exploit that compassion as a weakness.

PALPATINE: "Then you must go to the Sanctuary Moon and wait for him."

VADER: "He will come to me?"

PALPATINE: "I have foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing. He will come to you and then you will bring him before me."

 

No it isn't. You can't just redefine words to suit yourself.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/glory

 

I'll pretend this has any reasonable validity just for a moment but only order to use it to defend Anakin's renouncement of the glory of not colluding with Sidious to betray and murder the Jedi or uphold democracy, and instead chose to try and protect Padme. And that Anakin was trying to renounce the glory of his objective of rescuing the chancellor from the separatists in order to help the clones he's supposedly too attached to in the battle of coruscant. Honestly. The perversity of this interpretation is so fundamentally unJedi-like it borders trolling.

If Yoda honoured what Obi Wan and Anakin fought for, he would have stopped Dooku's ship first.

The Falcon isn't the only ship on Bespin. It's used by Lando because it features in his double cross that he doesn't realise is a triple cross.

 

First, as Darth Downunder said, you can't alter the meaning of words just to serve your argument.
What glory can mean and what you want it to mean are two very different things.
That you are trying this tactic, which you have done before, is showing me again why discussing with you is rather pointless as you make up your own meaning of words just to win the argument.

Second, arguing it was murder if Yoda choose to save Anakin and Obi-Wan over stopping Dooku.
Not only is this stupid but by that argument, Yoda was arguing for the murder of Han and Leia over letting Luke leave.
Again, Yoda's own words condemn him.

Third, choosing to save two of your friends and letting two million die, that is so un-jedi that the mind boggles.
And I have never argued that the Jedi can help, a strawman on your part, but what you and others have argued is how the PT Jedi should be. And that has always been big picture, the greater good, saving a few and letting many die, that is against the Jedi Code as you and others have defined it.

If a Jedi can save someone with no ill-effects, go ahead.
On the other hand, the Jedi were apparently fine with letting Shmi suffer as a slave and possibly worse.
No obligation to act there it seems and plenty have argued that the Jedi should NOT help her.

But my main point is this, if a Jedi is faced with a choice, save 2-3 people and let 2-3000 die or save the 2-3000 and let the 2-3 die. What has been made very clear by many here is that the PT Jedi would ALWAYS go with saving the 2-3000. To do otherwise is wrong and against the code. And if the 2-3 are your friends, then it becomes even worse. It is selfish and all that.

Yoda was faced with that choice and choose to save his friends and colleagues and letting many millions pay the prize.

He sensed something but wasn't sure of what. When he senses him later, Obi-Wan is on a mission to disable the tractor beam.

Which will cause chaos and disrupt Vader's plans. Which wold be stupid on his part.

No, a private might go with the moronic blunt-force approach you favor.
A general will instead use only as much force as is needed and not cause needless disruption and chaos just to blow stuff up.
Also, having troopers in the ship, for hours, days or however much time this will take.
This is again stupid as it has a big risk of getting noticed. Either some people on Cloud City sees the troopers go inside the MF. Or Lando's people come to make repairs and see them or Lando decides to inspect the ship and sees them.
Thus if Lando changes sides, he will know that the MF can't be used and he will then use a different ship and this will make it harder for Vader.

How and why the info was in the city's computer is odd and rather convenient.
But blow the ship up? And risk killing Luke? Horribly stupid.
As for troops, see above.

Vader's plan was smart and it only failed because of a collection of events that Vader could hardly predict.
1) R2 would come to Cloud City.
2) R2 would stumble across the others in the whole of the city.
3) R2 would interface with the city's computer and find out about the MF.

No one could have reasonably predicted this and so calling this plan stupid because of a very unlikely and unforeseeable chain of events is baseless.

If that was his goal, just order them to be moved to some place that will allow them to be seen by Luke.
But he ordered them to be put on his ship, knowing that Lando would likely react.
Vader is not unaware that Lando is getting more and more frustrated over the situation and he knows, unless he is a moron, that Lando could change sides if he is pushed too far.
I think that Vader always wanted to take Leia and Chewie, he was never going to leave them there.
But he didn't say that right away as then Lando could have acted sooner and ruined his plans.

Yes they do, because Yoda clearly talks about letting Han and Leia die to honor what they have been fighting for.
They don't want Luke to come and be captured so Luke should honor that.
Obi-Wan and Anakin have been trying to stop Dooku from leaving, so Yoda should honor THAT.
But he doesn't

And this shows that the Jedi have no problem with letting people die if they think it serves the greater goal.
Stopping Dooku was the goal and Yoda put the life of two Jedi above it.
He condemns himself.

And do you help living things by saving a few while letting many die?

[/QUOTE]

Nope, it is a double standard.
Anakin wanted to put saving one person over the mission, he was told that doing that would mean his expulsion.
Yoda put two people over the mission and thus he should have faced the same thing.

As Martoto77 pointed out, Anakin wanted to go back and help the clone pilots in RotS but Obi-Wan told him to focus on the mission and that the pilots were doing their job.
So again, the Jedi will not jump to save people when their mission is more important.
Again this is why the PT are so against attachment and all that. So that a Jedi does not ignore their mission and possibly ruins it by saving a few people.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

The Empire has actually taken control of the city behind Lando's back. They needed Artoo to crack the reset security code. The little droid discovers Vader's sabotage in the process.

 

That's not why Yoda showed up.

I guess it should've been as obvious as it was in ROTS when Paplatine talked to himself about sensing lord Vader in danger just when he ordered a ship to go to Mustafar.
It is stated, but not by words.

But there were Anakin and Obi-Wan. So there's no need for him going there.

There's a war raging on the planet. Sending all the Jedi in pursuit of Dooku is probably as stupid as sacrificing two Jedi knights in order to disable a villain's ship.

Even if the premise of Yoda's departure to that hangar was stopping Dooku, does he really need an army to stop his ex apprentice? Had he destroyed his ship, what then? What if the duel continues and Dooku manages to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan? Or Yoda himself?

Yes. That's unusual for a SW movie.

This may be a stupid question, but... Why? What's the priority here, disabling Dooku's ship, stopping Dooku or saving two Jedi knights?

 

Stopping the war is their stated aim. But the two Jedi who pursue Dooku in order to stop him (from escaping and leading the Seps to war) elect to ignore the only apparent means Dooku has of escaping and instead engage him personally. Meaning that if they lose, Dooku gets away in his escape ship. And they do lose.

Luckily for the Jedi, Yoda intervenes. But not so luckily for the peace and security of the galaxy as a whole, he doubles down on Kenobi and Skywalker's failed strategy.

Probably sensing Yoda's attachment to his fellow Jedi in that moment, instead of selfless devotion to their mission to stop the war (something Obi-Wan chastised Anakin for only moments ago), Dooku used Yoda's feelings to distract him long enough to use the escape ship that the three Jedi did not pay any attention to.

 

Yes it was.

What is stated in words is that stopping Dooku from escaping is vital.
What you argue is not stated and is only what you think is being conveyed.
Sorry, stated reason trumps imagined reason.

And even IF Yoda is there because of what he sensed.
A just as if not more likely explanation is that he sensed that they were in over their heads or that they would loose and so he goes to help them AND make sure that Dooku does not escape.
This fits with Yoda's earlier remark.

That he goes ONLY to save Obi-Wan and Anakin is not stated and makes no sense based on what Yoda said earlier.

Yoda goes and brings help, to both save Anakin and Obi-Wan and take out Dooku.
Two goals achieved, where is the downside?

Unless Yoda sensed that they were outmatched or that they would loose and so he goes there to help and make sure that Dooku does not escape.
Also Dooku was, from what I recall, a former Jedi Master and more experienced than either Anakin and Obi-Wan. Who were just a padawan and knight respectively.

Also, before he leaves, Yoda is informed that the droid army is in full retreat.
The battle is not over but the republic side is now at a considerable advantage.
And then Yoda asks for a ship.

You questioned how Anakin and Obi-Wan could know about the priority to stop Dooku.
I simply said that Yoda could relay that to other units.
I did NOT say that he would order all units to follow Dooku.
First, strawman.
Second, Yoda does not know where Dooku is at that point.
Three and quite logical and sensible, Yoda can send out a message about how Dooku is a priority target and if any units comes across him they 1) inform command and 2) try to take him out if they are able.
This is not difficult.

First you ask why Yoda needs a backup for and then you ask, "What if Yoda looses?"
The second part of your argument answers the first.
Yoda can bring troops as BACKUP, you know to make the very important mission to stop Dooku a little more certain. Then Yoda can focus on Dooku and not waste time with trying to disable a ship. And if Dooku proves too strong, now Dooku has no ship and can't leave.
So plenty of reasons to bring help and no good reason not to.

The only explanation is that Yoda was so sure that he could take Dooku down that not only did he did not take any help but he also sent away the ship he came in.
Both arrogance and stupidity, very efficient of him.

[/QUOTE]

As I and Martoto77, have said, stopping Dooku from escaping as that would lead to the war growing.
With him dead or captured, the seps are leaderless and either the war is over before it even starts.
Or at the very least, more systems don't join the seps. And that is a GOOD thing for the republic as it will make the war shorter and smaller.
And it is a GOOD thing for the Jedi as then fewer people will die.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Yoda is like any other teacher - he doesn't always follow his own teachings , saving Anakin and Kenobi was an emotional decision , he has feelings for them and in that moment acted without thinking of tactics .

 

First, I'm not trying to alter the meaning of a word. I'm trying to make a point about why Yoda ignoring people in trouble is wrong. You can use a different word, but the point remains the same.

Except that Yoda is sacrificing two Jedi for no reason, other than to stop a war. That's not their sacrifice to make, that's his. He is dictating who should be saved and who shouldn't. The Clonetrooper pilots all had a choice regarding the Battle of Coruscant and they knew that their lives were in danger of being wiped out. Han and Leia have a choice to cooperate with Vader or not, knowing full well that it could lead to their deaths either way. Anakin and Obi-wan are not making a sacrifice on Geonosis, because it is not their choice to die in that moment. That's why Obi-wan doesn't chastise Yoda for saving his life, or does he do so with Anakin later on. Not any other Jedi whose life was in danger during the war, even thought meant losing the Sith and Grievous. When Anakin was injured on Maridun, Ahsoka refuses to leave his side because she's attached to him. Aayla has to tell her to leave him in the hands of the clones, so that they can find help together. Aayla doesn't condemn her for wanting to help Anakin, but she reminds her that she has a job to do and she must stick to it. In the end, they find help for Anakin and Ahsoka realizes that if she had stayed behind due to her fears, they wouldn't have been able to help him.

Anakin, on the other hand, is told by Palpatine to sacrifice the Jedi to save him and in turn Padme. Just as he was told to sacrifice Obi-wan so that they could get off the ship and as he tells Yoda to sacrifice Anakin in order to stop Order 66. In the latter two cases, Anakin and Yoda did the right thing by not turning their backs on a helpless Jedi. In the former, Anakin does the wrong thing.

He can still do that by destroying the ship, much less all ships.

No, because Han and Leia choose to not cooperate with Vader. They don't tell him where he might be, nor do they volunteer to send out a message to bring him there. They make choices about what to do and what not to do. And as both Jedi state, their fates are uncertain. Meaning that they might die or they might live. What Luke is being warned about is the dangers of acting emotionally.

Two million might die, two million might not die. What is evident is that Anakin and Obi-wan will die because Dooku will crush them using a crane and so right here, he must save them. Not because they're Jedi, not because of an attachment that he does not have, but because it is the right thing to do.

I have never said, nor has Lucas ever said, that the Jedi should sacrifice everyone to achieve victory. What has been said is that Han and Leia's fates were uncertain, same with Padme's. Luke and Anakin shouldn't have done what they did, because they reacted out of fear. They acted emotionally and it was almost Luke's undoing and it was Anakin's undoing.

Spock: "You must learn to govern your passions; they will be your undoing."

Likewise, Anakin did not know about Shmi's fate until it was too late and while helping her was necessary, it did not need to be him that did it. He never contacted the Council, nor Obi-wan about what to do. This is what becomes his undoing and what leads him to the dark side. As to the Clonetroopers, as I've noted, there was a plan in place to rescue the Chancellor and Obi-wan has to remind Anakin of that, because he is governed by his emotions and is loyal to people over principles.

No, what the lesson is, is that a Jedi should not use fear, anger and hate to save people. Anakin wants to save Padme for his own selfish reasons and not because it was the right thing to do. He wants the power over life and death because he's afraid to be alone and afraid of death itself. Yoda chooses to save Anakin and Obi-wan because it was the right thing to do and was done without using the dark side. He already had the power necessary to save two lives, which were going to be extinguished unnaturally. Luke is warned that if he attempts to save his friends before completing his training, he will wind up falling to the dark side while confronting Vader. Luke realizes that he doesn't need to save his friends at Endor, because they've gone to war of their own volition and they're willing to sacrifice themselves in the cause of freedom. If he gives into the dark side to save them, then he will have made their sacrifice in vain.

Why? Luke will still come regardless. You really think he's going to turn around because the Falcon was blown up? Luke knows its a trap. He's well aware it is. Obi-wan told him it was a trap.

Lando's people already know and logged it in. Lando didn't know because he didn't bother to check again before going off on his rescue mission. And if all ships are taken out, then no one will go anywhere.

I'm not talking about when Luke is aboard the Falcon. I'm talking about before Luke even gets to Bespin, disable the ship in some way so that it isn't flight worthy. Not hyperspace worthy.

Vader is aware that Lando could betray him. That's why I said that he could easily avoid a lot of problems if he took better precautions to ensure that nothing went wrong.

No, because again, Yoda and Obi-wan do not know if Han and Leia will die. Yoda does know that Anakin and Obi-wan will die. That's what separates the two.

Not everyone will die right then and there. Any deaths that will occur will happen over the course of time. Dooku was part of the plan, but not there was still Sidious and Grievous. The war could go on despite Dooku being captured and killed. If he fell, the war would still go on because Sidious was still alive and he could keep it going without him.

And there's a reason why Yoda wasn't and why Anakin could have been. What Anakin wanted to do was not even do his duty because he made an emotionally based decision. Yoda was doing his duty even when Dooku escapes, because part of his duty as a Jedi is to save someone who is in trouble. Yoda understands that he failed to stop Dooku from escaping and that the war has begun. But it turns out that he made the right choice.

 

Except his, Obi-Wan and Anakin's stated aim and their order's prime directive. Stop the war, by stopping the Sith, Dooku, from escaping.

 

That still isn't a good enough reason for Yoda to ignore them. That's the point. Dooku knows this because he was a Jedi and he knows Yoda very well, which is why he does it. He knows that deep down, Yoda will never do what the Sith would do in this situation. This is why Yoda is not chastised by the Council for saving them. Yoda, like all the Jedi, are bound by compassion. This is why Palpatine knows full well that the best way to destroy the Jedi is to make them fight in a war that they know that they shouldn't fight in, because they cannot ignore their sense of compassion for all living beings. To ignore their compassion here, in this moment, would be their undoing.

 

A true Jedi would let his or her comrades die if doing so honoured what they fought for. Safeguarding peace is the very reason they exist. Not allowing a war to start because their friends might be in danger. Yoda didn't need a better reason than stopping the war that you point out they don't want want to fight.

Compassion for one or two people at the expense of the greater good is the antithesis of the Jedi code. Anakin's unbalanced compassion for Padme at the expense of his duty as a Jedi proved to be his and the Republic's downfall.

 

No you were, stop pretending otherwise.

As for the word you are looking for, it is called making hard choices.
Doing something that is not pleasant but that will have a overall positive impact or inaction will cause worse things to happen.

You mentioned Kirk before.
As a Starfleet Captain, Kirk would tell you that that role sometimes means sending people into danger, knowing that they might not come back. Ordering people to a likely or even certain death because to do otherwise would lead to worse deaths.
And he would also say that if you don't have it in yourself to do this, then you don't belong in the chair or in that uniform.

Ex, in Best of Both World, Riker was prepared to kill Picard, his friend and mentor, to stop the Borg.
Later he was prepared to ram the Cube with the Enterprise, a ship that has civilians and children on it.
So he was again prepared to sacrifice civilians to stop a threat.

That is a pretty major reason, and Yoda has talked about how stopping Dooku from escaping is vital.

Yes they were. They saw Dooku and choose to go after him, even knowing that it was risky.
As Obi-Wan said, Padme would sacrifice Anakin in order to carry on with the mission.
But Yoda apparently is not that determined.

WRONG, from ESB;

So Vader is asking them NO questions or is asking ANYTHING of them.
He is just torturing them.
There is NO choice here.
Later Lando says;

So Vader gave them no choice to cooperate or draw Luke out, it wasn't needed.

Obi-Wan and Anakin made a choice to go after Dooku, Han and Leia made no choice at all.
And yet Yoda is fully prepared to let them die if it means keeping Luke out of Vader's hands.

Yoda makes no if and buts about Dooku being able to rally more systems to his cause.
So to Yoda it is clear, if Dooku escapes, the war grows and this WILL mean more deaths.

What is with the strawmen?
That was never my argument.
I simply said this, if a PT Jedi is faced with saving two friends at the cost of 2000 strangers, the PT Jedi should ALWAYS save the 2000 strangers. Saving friends over others is selfish, against the Jedi Code and all manner of things. Again I am basing this on what you and others have said here.

Both Anakin and the council knew that she was a slave on a world run by criminals. And yet they saw no reason to act. Anakin likely wanted to but was told no.
And I have seen many here argue that they MUST not act. That for them to save her would be against the code and all that. Even IF they knew she was in deadly danger, the Jedi way is to leave her to her fate.

Also, Obi-Wan knew that Anakin had bad dreams about his mother and had them for a while.
And they were bad enough that Anakin wasn't really sleeping well anymore.
But again, he saw no need to do anything. Just "Dreams pass in time."

Just as there was a plan to stop Dooku from escaping and Obi-Wan had to remind Anakin of that as well.

That is not at all what I talked about.
I talked about if a Jedi has to choose between two people dying and 2000 people dying.
No ifs and buts, their deaths are CERTAIN and the jedi can only save one group.
And I say, based on what you and others have said about the Jedi code, the Jedi would ALWAYS choose to save the larger group.

If Vader acts like the blunt-instrument moron you want him to be, it could cause chaos in Cloud City before the MF even gets there, or screw up the capture of Han and co and cause Lando to change sides and break them out before Luke arrives.
That is why your plan is stupid.

It was Piett's people that did the deed, how it got in the computer is unknown. That it was Lando's people is speculation on your part.
As Martoto77 said, the empire had taken over and changed the codes and thus this info could come from the imperials. Still, rather convenient.

No, you said to put a bomb on the MF so that it blows up if someone tries to fly away.
Say that Luke, after kicking down Vader in the freezing chamber, instead of going after Vader, he leaves and gets out.
And finds the others and the get in the MF and boom, Luke dead.
Congratulations, you've killed Luke.

Vader had no reason to do more than what he did. His actions would have worked if not for several unforeseeable events.

Like just ordering Leia and Chewie to a place in the city that would mean they pass by Luke.
But he ordered them to be put on his ship, thus showing he wanted them alive, and this is the straw that broke the camels back with Lando.
Imagine if Lando had pulled his guard thing right when they saw Luke. Then Luke would be with Leia and Chewie and would not go after Vader.

Still wrong, because Luke ASKS;

Luke asks directly if he should let Han and Leia die and Yoda says very clearly that he should.
So even with the uncertainty, Yoda makes it clear that even if their deaths were a sure thing, Luke should still let them die.
That is why Yoda condemns himself with his own words.

At this point, the Jedi did not know about Sidious or Griev. And they certainly don't know that Sidous is Palpatine.
And as I said, Yoda made it clear, if Dooku escapes then he WILL rally more systems to his cause.
Ergo it was vital to stop him and failing that WILL lead to more deaths.

[/QUOTE]

No what Anakin wanted to do and what Yoda did, were the same, abandoning your duty.
That Anakin was less calm about it changes nothing.
Say one of the troopers fell out and Anakin wanted to go back for him.
Would that make it ok?
Now there is no risk of expulsion?
Now Obi-Wan would not yell at him?

How you describe the Jedi, the Sith would beat them with ease.
All Sidious needs to do is to put a gun at some small boys head and make an announcement.
"All Jedi, submit to me and be my slaves or I'll kill this boy."
Since you think that the jedi can not even let one person die, they would surrender.
That this would mean suffering for the rest of the galaxy, that is not their problem.
Letting the boy die, no, that would be murder.
This is so against the PT Jedi and all their talk of sacrifice and all that.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Or as the ROTS novelization puts it:

"For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met - loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are at the heart of being a Jedi, he - he will never, I think, truly understand."
He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner - one day sooner - were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."
"As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."
"Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."
Yoda and Mace exchanged glances, both thoughtfully grim. Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders - the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of entire planetary systems - to save a friend.
More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan.
"I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him."
Mace and Yoda gazed at him steadily, and Obi-Wan had to lower his head.
"Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."

 

No.

Oh, imagined? Nice!
So, Yoda came into Geonosis arena to save the surrounded Jedi (that's the way I see it, to some it may appear that he came to stop Dooku from escaping), after that he goes away from the arena stating that if Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his cause he will. But if that's so, why is he still moving away from Dooku? Why not attack him right there? What's the reason that he cast aside main objective and decided to fight a war until the Separatists started to retreat?

It makes sense.
I'm most likely wasting my letters here, but here it goes - again.
When Obi-Wan and Anakin spot Dooku, Kenobi says that there's no time for bringing help and that he and Anakin will handle him. He even says that he needs Anakin, he can't take Dooku alone. If they stop him, they'll end this war now. Anakin is distraught; he wants to save Padme, but has a job to do. He's not ready to face Dooku without a clear mind.
The very next scene, a hint to the audience, is Yoda's worried face. Now, to me that means he sensed Anakin (as he did earlier when Anakin massacred the Tusken village) or his exchange with Kenobi - this is not going to end well. So he orders a ship. This makes sense because, as stated above, he sensed Anakin before and he sensed him later, in ROTS, when he turned to the dark side. And, in the end, there's no plot hole, inconsistency or plot stupidity in them not destroying Dooku's ship. The Jedi have become arrogant, that's what made their downfall. Yoda also thought he'll destroy Dooku (Fought well you have...), but he utterly failed. It's one of many themes of AOTC; the Jedi are responsible for the Clone Wars, their Sifo-Dyias ordered an army, ex-Jedi Dooku started it and all the Jedi failed to prevent it from spreading.

The underlined part is on a trace of what I'm saying.

 

Why not destroy Dooku's escape ship leaving him no choice but to yield or to die? Why do three Jedi choose to engage him personally?

 

That’s what I wondered. Just attack the ship, not Dooku. They need him to not escape, right? He can’t exactly do that if his ship is banged up.

Secondly, why couldn’t Yoda just quickly Force Shove Anakin and Obi-Wan out of the way? Not only would he save them, but he would then have the time to immediately get back into the fight rather than waste precious moments struggling to move the pillar out of the way.

Thirdly, I agree with @Samuel Vimes . As a leader, you have to make tough decisions that you otherwise wouldn’t normally do. You can’t let your attachment blind you from the overall goal — doesn’t mean you don’t care about the person, just means that when you’re in a conflict and are trying to accomplish a goal, you have to focus on that, not making sure everyone is safe and sound in their spaceship.

 

Yes.
Both Yoda and Mace have earlier in the film talked about dealing with Dooku.
So that he is there primarily to stop Dooku fits with earlier dialogue.

Yes imagined.
As I've said, earlier Mace said that they would deal with Dooku, not the seps, Dooku!
And Yoda made a point of saying that stopping Dooku from escaping was vital.
So that he is there to stop Dooku, that fits with what has been established.

That he is there ONLY to save Anakin and Obi-Wan, not only is that never stated, it also does not fit with the Jedi code of sacrifice and all that. Obi-Wan chastised Anakin over wanting to save one person over the mission and yelled that if he did, he would get expelled from the Jedi order.
So that Yoda went ONLY to save them and not to stop Dooku, does not fit with that.

That they don't try to shoot Dooku right then and there is a good question. More Jedi stupidity or rather, more plot demands. Dooku can't die so the Jedi must ignore obvious ways to take him out.
Like Anakin and Obi-wan forgetting the other weapons on their ship or Yoda not bothering to bring soldiers with him. Or the total lack of tactics and strategy the Jedi showed in the arena battle.
During the arena fight, one Jedi Master did come at at Dooku but he got shot by Jango before he could do anything.
So at least SOME Jedi remembered why they were there.

Again, if Yoda sensed Anakin and knew about the situation, then him going to help TO STOP DOOKU, totally fits with earlier dialogue. That he goes with the only goal to save their lives does not.

First, about Sifo-Dyas, based on what is in the film, then Sifo-Dyas was NOT behind the clone army.
Instead he was killed before that and someone, likely Dooku or Palpatine, used his name when placing the order.
Second, the Jedi are flawed yes but to me, Lucas made them too stupid.
To the point that Palpatine does not come off as clever, everyone else comes across as retards.
The plot became too contrived to me, things had to happen in order for the plot to work. No matter if it made sense in-universe or from a character perspective, it had to happen so that the plot could move forward.

Overall, the OT did a better job of not getting too contrived. Not always succeeding mind you.
The Vader thing from ESB, that some want to call him stupid over.
His plan made sense and would have worked if not for several impossible to predict events.
In the PT, Dooku escapes due to Jedi incompetence, stupidity and arrogance.
If one wants to call Vader in ESB stupid, then Yoda in AotC is ten times more so.

[/QUOTE]

And what I am saying, is that Yoda was primarily there to stop Dooku, that fits with earlier dialogue and overall Jedi attitude.
And why has it to be either/or?
Yoda senses that they are in danger and Dooku will kill them and then escape.
So he goes there and brings enough help to both stop Dooku from leaving and save their lives.
Win-win, he kills two birds with one stone.
There is no good reason for him not to do this.
You say that he was so arrogant that he was totally confident that he could beat Dooku and so he would not bring any help and even send away the ship he came in.
Sorry that is not just arrogant, it is plenty stupid as well.

And it still leaves the problem of why he saves them and lets Dooku go.
As Iron_lord quoted;

This is the Jedi way, if letting some die will serve the greater good, they would not get in the way.
And while it isn't in the films, it fits with what Yoda said in ESB, where he argued that Luke should sacrifice Han and Leia for the greater good.

But with Dooku, Yoda suddenly goes against this.
The best explanation is that Yoda is "human", he knew what he should do but couldn't.
He let his emotions get the better of him and he could not let two of his fellow Jedi die for the cause.
And later he feels bad about it, he knows he failed, he knows what he should have done but was not strong enough to do.
That I can sort of buy.
Or if you prefer, Yoda was thinking only about the prophecy.
Anakin is the only one who can kill the sith and if he dies, then the Sith will be un-stoppable.
So that is why he does this, Anakin must not die before he has killed the sith.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

what with ? And how do you know there aren't other ships there ?

 

Lightsabers? Yoda could literally hop over to the ship and go slash-happy. Or go into the ship (as the ramp was clearly lowered) and hack at the consoles. They literally have weapons that can cut through any material in the universe save for another lightsaber. Were I a Jedi, this would’ve been the first thing I did.

Hell, Obi-Wan could keep Dooku distracted while Anakin went to completely dismember the ship. The only reason they failed was because Anakin decided to bum-rush Dooku and got zapped for his troubles. Obi was no match for Dooku, as we see.