PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

It's clearly unsafe to assume that Yoda cannot do something to the ship while Dooku is standing there. Dooku has time to hold off Yoda and bring the ceiling down.

In the next movie, Kenobi demonstrates being able to nonchalantly wrench a piece of heavy equipment from the ceiling on top of several assailants, in an instant, while ranks of battle droids and General Grievous surround him.

 

I think Dooku might stop him .

 

No, it isn't the antithesis of the Jedi Code. To ignore two people like that is the antithesis of the Jedi Code.

Kirk himself also made the hard choices to save others in spite of the risk to the greater whole.

And yet, he still made a choice to keep trying to rescue Picard, despite the fact that he had to destroy the Cube. In fact, let's examine that conversation between Riker and Guinan.

GUINAN: "You'll have to do something you don't want to do. You have to let go of Picard."

RIKER: "Maybe you haven't heard. I tried to kill him yesterday!"

GUINAN: "You tried to kill whatever that is on the Borg ship. Not Picard. Picard is still here with us in this room. lf he had died, it would be easier. But he didn't. They took him from us a piece at a time. Did he ever tell you why we're so close?"

RIKER: "No."

GUINAN: "Then let me just say that our relationship is beyond friendship, beyond family. And I will let him go. And you must do the same. There can only be one captain."

RIKER: "lt's not that simple. He wrote the book on this ship."

GUINAN: "lf the Borg know what he knows, it's time to throw that book away. You must let him go, Riker. lt's the only way to beat him. The only way to save him. And that is now your chair, Captain."

One, she states that he must let go of his attachment to Picard. But second, she also raises the possibility of saving him, not letting on that she knows that he survives this and is restored to normal. Despite the possibility of failure and risking Earth being assimilated, Riker comes up with a plan to save someone that he should have let go and let die.

But still not good enough. To let them die is to commit murder himself and Yoda knows that this is wrong. Just as he did with Anakin on Moraband.

Yes, but there is again a world of difference. Anakin was making decisions based on emotions, Yoda wasn't and it is why despite what happened, he still did the right thing.

You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that they don't decide to betray Luke to save their own skin, once they find out that they're bait for Luke. They don't demand to speak to Vader to save their own skin. And when Luke does show up, Leia warns him to run and abandon them.

Right, but it might also mean that the Chancellor might be able to negotiate before the war gets going and two million might not die.

I have always said that if the Jedi has an attachment and is put in a situation like Anakin was in, the correct choice was to accept that the attachment might die and to do the right thing by letting them go. If Anakin had let go of Padme the same way that Riker did with Picard and Luke does with his friends, he would have done the right thing and everyone wouldn't have suffered under the Empire. I have always said that in situations where a Jedi could save someone from a blaster bolt, an explosion, a Lightsaber, then that was acceptable. A Jedi seeking to betray his oath as a Jedi, in the pursuit of power and out of selfish need, is always wrong.

Look back and tell me where I said that Yoda was wrong to have saved Obi-wan and Anakin. Show me where I said that Luke staying on Tatooine for months to rescue Han was wrong.

There were other worlds where other people were under a rule that was not of their own choosing. Other slaves on Tatooine and other worlds. The Jedi cannot be everywhere and cannot save everyone, but they can do the best that they can with what they have. The Council and possibly all of the Jedi were aware that slavery still existed in the Outer Rim, long before Qui-gon touched down there. The Senate is aware of it. It was no big secret. Padme didn't know because she was young and inexperienced in the ways of the universe. And as to Anakin, we don't know what he was told once he had advanced in his training. Much less if he had asked. He just knew deep down that he would see her one day.

Some of these others have probably gotten the wrong impression, just as you and Martoto have. I have only said that the Jedi cannot just go marching into Tatooine and throw their weight around, as that would lead to larger problems.There may have been a genuine reason to not free here, or that they were lead to believe something else about here fate. We don't know. I have argued that if Anakin had tried to contact Obi-wan or the Council before leaving for Tatooine, as he was instructed to do, then action would have been taken to try and help her. But he never bothers to do so and tries to do it himself. And that in doing so, he also put Padme at risk because he had no idea what was going on. He had no clue if there were more assassins and bounty hunters looking for her. Or if they were onto her deception and were lying in wait.

Because Anakin didn't see them as a reason to go to her aid. Remember, he turns around and states, "I'd rather dream about Padme." For someone who should be deeply worried, he sure didn't sound like it. Not until he sees her for the last time on Naboo, by which point he tells Padme that he can see Shmi as plainly as he can see Padme. Before then, he just keeps having dreams about her and is having restless sleep as a result.

Right. He's loyal to people over principles. He wants to help Padme because he's in love with her and is thinking like a man in love. Oddball was a good friend to him during the war and he wanted to help.

In a situation like at the end of "Spider-Man" (2002), where he was able to save both, then if at all possible the Jedi could try and save both. But in AOTC, it is different. There are two people in immediate need. Two thousand people aren't laying there about to be crushed by a separate crane, at the same time as two Jedi are about to be. In that case, Yoda would choose to save the larger group of people.

SGT. HARTMAN: "It was the fairy ******* godmother!"

It has to be Lando's people as no one else would do it, especially logging it into the central computer.

Either way, **** happens. Vader would deal with it.

No, he would still go after Vader to buy them time. He still wants Vader for killing his father, Obi-wan and the other Jedi. That's why he even fights him, rather than trying to get away.

No, Yoda's point was to not run off half-cocked based on fear. Luke did that very thing. It also has to do with the fact that Luke has to accept that his friends might die. Something he's not emotionally ready to deal with now, but is later on, when he finally gets it.

It would still be wrong and Obi-wan would still say roughly the same thing.

The Jedi are not monsters. They would surrender if they believed that there was no way to stop Sidious in that moment. Sacrifice for a Jedi is about personal attachments. Not about people as a collective whole. Remember, Neo sacrificed everyone in the Matrix to save Trinity and it was the right thing to do. Same with Superman backing down when he had Zod, but Ursa and Non were going to kill Lois.

I've had trouble with that since it doesn't fit in the narrative of AOTC.

Because they can still stop him that way.

Hindsight is 20/20. That's the point. It's easy to play armchair quarterback when you're on the sidelines. It's different when you're in the thick of things. Ask yourself this, if Yoda wanted to, couldn't he have disabled Luke's X-Wing? Why didn't Vader just sense Luke and walk outside of the hangar in Echo Base and just capture him?

 

So it's non-Jedi, like Han and Leia, that are expendable if doing so honours what they fight for?

 

What about Windu's earlier statement about taking the Jedi they have left and going to Geonosis to help Obi-Wan?

Not everything has to be stated. Again - it's implied by visuals and editing.

I didn't say he went there only to save Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Yes, that's possible.

Well, it happened before. Even Luke in TESB went to Cloud City despite Yoda's advice and accomplished nothing. Has Yoda learned by TESB? That is a possibility.

That situation from TESB had to happen because the plot demanded it. R2 had to discover in a city computer that Falcon's hyperdrive has been disabled by the Imperials (they disabled it and put the information in a non-imperial facility computer!) and then he saved the day. Because disabling apparently means turning the switch on a lowest access point so that even an astrodroid can fix it while you're flying towards a superstardestroyer who can't turn the tractor beam on for who knows how many minutes.

But TESB is not like AOTC, TFA is. Kylo kills Han and notices Rey and Finn, a girl who managed to escape his captivity and a traitor. He wants them. And what he does? He stands in their way to the Falcon (he knows where it is). Why didn't he destroy it? It's an imperial base and they have no other means of escape, he usually destroys things or planets and kills people, so what's the deal here? A plot contrivance? So unlike SW.

It's not stupid. Qui-Gon told Padme that they'll handle Maul and he died. Kenobi said that he and Anakin will handle Dooku, they didn't. Yoda said he'll take Sidious, but he didn't. Luke surrendered to Vader and went before Palpatine and nearly died.

 

They'd taken over the city and changed the security codes. Only R2 was equipped to circumvent this in order to get to the Falcon in the first place, and he learned the truth about the Falcon's hyperdrive in the process.

 

A statement that does not make much sense as they have no idea if Obi-Wan is alive or dead.
The last they saw was him getting attacked and his signal cut off.
What evidence do they have that he is even alive?

But here we HAVE it be stated and you want to overwrite that with what you think is being implied.
And people trying to imagine what is being conveyed has the drawback that what each person see is heavily influenced byt their own biases and knowledge and what they want to see.

If NOTHING had been said, then your interpretation is possible.
But since we have a statement from Yoda himself not long before, why he is there is very clear. To stop Dooku.

But if he is there to also stop Dooku from leaving then he knows that is quite important and this again begs two questions, why didn't he bring help and why did he let him escape?
Given what Obi-Wan said earlier and what Yoda said in ESB and what was quoted from the ROTS novelization;

I wouldn't say Luke accomplished nothing.
He learned a terrible truth, one that almost broke him but he came through stronger.
And he sensed the good in Vader, knew that all light had not fled from him.
Without that connection, would Luke had fought as hard to redeem him?
Maybe, maybe not.

As was said, the empire had changed the security codes and thus they could have taken over the computer and if this computer is connected with the computer up at the SSD, then R2 could find out. He is established as being able to hack imperial systems.
Also as was said, the disabling had to be such that is wasn't very obvious. As then Lando might find out and if he is involved with the escape, he would use a different ship.
And since Piett's people had to do this quickly, again they must not get noticed, it again explains why it was a simple thing.
But a simple thing that did NOT show up on the Falcon's instruments.

I said before that even the OT films has some plot contrivances but to me, the amount was much higher in the PT. To the point where I noticed it and was bothered by it.
As with suspensions of disbelief, the amount or how much I have to swallow matters.
Some amount and it is stretched but does not break, too much and my suspension of disbelief breaks.

[/QUOTE]

Oh it is plenty stupid, as is the TPM situation.
What do the jedi know opposes them on Naboo?
The TF blockade, the TF army and a possible sith lord.
What forces does Padme have?
Herself and a handfull of guards.
And yet two Jedi is enough to deal with all that?
Massively contrived.
As was the TF removing the blockade for no reason, them leaving the Naboo ships alone for no reason, Anakin being there, for no reason.

You complain that Kylo didn't destroy the MF.
Why didn't the TF destroy the Naboo fighters? They had control over the palace for several days at least.
But no, leave these fueled and armed ships just sitting there.

As for Obi-Wan, had Anakin not acted like a reckless hothead, they might have been able to hold their own until Yoda got there and then Dooku would be in trouble.
As for Yoda in RotS, he didn't have a lot of resources to draw upon there did he?
He had just himself and Obi-Wan.
But in AotC, he is at the forward command post and has a literal army at his command.
He must have used a ship to get to Dooku so what prevented him from taking some soldiers along and have the ship remain and try to destroy Dooku's ship?
The Plot.

As for Luke in RotJ, what options did he have?
He is on Endor, which is behind a shield and to enter or leave requires lowering of that shield.
Now Vader is coming down because he sensed Luke.
So Luke can not leave the planet as Vader will have told the imperials to not lower the shield.
If he stays, he is endangering the mission.
So he surrenders, he hopes that he can reach his father, to convince him to come back into the light.
Change sides.
Not much of a hope but Luke felt he had to try and he didn't have much choice here.

But Vader refuses and Luke seems defeated as he is being led away.
He didn't plan to come before Palpatine and he hoped that Vader would not send him to the emperor.
The only hope he now clings to is the rebel attack, he will die but take Vader and Palpatine with him.

@darth-sinister

You mean it totally invalidates your entire argument and totally support what I have been saying.

And it does fit the narrative of not only AotC but the PT and OT.
It totally fits with what Obi-Wan said to Anakin, it also fits with what Yoda said to Luke in ESB.
The only hiccup is that Yoda saved Anakin and Obi-Wan and let Dooku go.
But that can be explained that Yoda didn't always practice what he preached and in a moment of weakness, he let his emotions get the better of him. And afterwards he felt sad because he knew that he failed and the galaxy will now pay the price.

Not monsters?
So say the Jedi had a weapon that can level cities and a sith lord holds one person hostage and demands this weapon. And the jedi give up and gives it to him and then he promptly destroys a city, killing millions.
To me that would be way worse than not surrendering.
And the Jedi would be far from blameless here.

And if the Jedi could be beaten this easily then Palpatine would not have bothered with his long game, just hold one person hostage and the Jedi surrender.

About sacrifice, not just the Jedi need to sacrifice.
The parents of the child that the Jedi wants to train, if they agree then they will never see hear from their child ever again. The older siblings of said child will likewise never see them again.
Plenty of sacrifice there.
And if a Jedi saves one life but in so doing kills millions, that would be very un-jedi to me.

Nope, they know that this is a trap and Vader and the emperor want Luke.
And they also know that Luke is at this stage no match for Vader. So he can't win.
Thus if Luke goes, he will most likely either die, be captured or be turned. Either is a disaster for Yoda and Obi-Wan.
So even if Han, Leia and Chewie's death are certain, Luke should still sacrifice them as keeping him away from Vader is more important.

No he wouldn't. Leia would tell him that they need to save Han and ask for Luke's help and for Luke to refuse that and go off to face Vader instead, that does not fit his character.
He fights once he realizes that he has been brought to Vader and his chances to escape are slim.

As I said above, the empire has taken over the city and changed the security codes. Thus they have some control over the computer. And if they have linked this computer with the one on the SSD, then R2 could hack the system and find this out. He has done that before.

And it makes less sense for Lando's people to notice, make a log entry about it but not tell Lando.
Then it does for Piett's people, who we know are the ones who did the job, to make some entry into the city computer.

And this argument was and is totally nonsensical. The Jedi has ZERO need to throw their weight around in order to free Shmi. They didn't when they freed Anakin and there is no need here either. Just go there incognito with some valuable things and either buy Shmi or give her the items and then she can buy her own freedom.
In some EU novel this is pretty much what Qui-Gon did, he sent her some valuable piece of equipment right after they had come back to Coruscant. A tobal lens I think.
This is not difficult.

That is very unlikely. He has been trying to negotiate with the seps and what have they been doing?
Building up a big army with plans to attack and enforce their demands.
And Yoda makes it clear, Dooku must be stopped. No ifs and buts about it.

If I misunderstand you it is because you are making less and less sense.
Lando says that Luke is already on his way. So they have nothing they can offer Vader in that regard, Luke will come regardless.
And Han is to be given to Boba Fett, so no way to save anything there either.
So they can not make any choice to cooperate or anything of that sort.
And that is why Vader never once attempted it, he knew it was totally unnecessary.

Nope, there isn't.
It is still just about abandoning the mission to save a person.
If it was wrong for Anakin, it is also wrong for Yoda.
And the bit from the RotS novelization supports this.

If it would be murder then so too is Yoda trying to talk Luke out of going off to save Han and Leia.
Yoda made it clear, even if their deaths is 100% certain, it is still better to let them die than to risk Luke.

In closing, what started this bit is you saying;

If Vader was stupid for not destroying the MF and not foreseeing that R2 would come, randomly run into the others and interface with the computer.
Then how is Yoda NOT as stupid for not bringing help with him when trying to stop Dooku from leaving?

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

No. The point is that Luke needs to learn patience, something that he is sorely lacking in TESB. If he rushes off recklessly, he will pay a price for it. This is why he loses to Vader, because he was not yet ready to face him. Yoda and Obi-wan are both warning him that if he doesn't stay and finish his training, he will fail in his efforts to save them. Staying behind to finish his training doesn't mean that he is a terrible friend. And if his friends should die while he is doing this, then he needs to be ready to accept that. He cannot protect them forever. In ROTJ, Luke has learned his lesson and spends all that time preparing to rescue Han. He's more patient than he was and he has learned from his earlier mistake. He is better able to save his friends that time because he's better equipped emotionally and physically to deal with the matter at hand. That's why Yoda says that he is ready despite not finishing his studies.

YODA: "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need."

Luke was making an emotional decision to leave, but he makes a more logical one when he goes to Tatooine.

There is no evidence that he is dead either. The Jedi's objective was to rescue Obi-wan if he was still alive and deal with the Confederacy before they can launch an attack on the Republic. Once they get there, the Jedi accomplish their objectives and Yoda states that if they have any hope of stopping the war before it spreads, they need to prevent Dooku from escaping. Yes, they fail in that objective. But as Yoda told Luke, part of being a Jedi is failing and learning from that failure.

Luke would have learned that his father was Vader had he stayed on Dagobah and finished his training.

YODA: "Unexpected this and unfortunate."

LUKE: "Unfortunate that I know the truth?"

YODA: "No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden were you."

Sensing the good would come when he confronted him later on, as it would still manifest itself once they faced each other and not because they were on Cloud City. Obi-wan even points out to him in the script that he would learn the truth and be better able to handle it, had he stayed.

OBI-WAN: "Vader humbled you when first you met him, Luke... but that experience was part of your training. It taught you, among other things, the value of patience. Had you not been so impatient to defeat Vader then, you could have finished your training here with Yoda. You would have been prepared."

LUKE: "But I had to help my friends."

OBI-WAN: "And did you help them? It was they who had to save you. You achieved little by rushing back prematurely, I fear."

LUKE: "I found out Darth Vader was my father."

OBI-WAN: "To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side - the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now, you must face Darth Vader again!"

No, it means that if Yoda already believed in the idea of sacrificing any one person to stop the war, he would have simply not saved Anakin and Obi-wan. Stover got this one wrong when he wrote that passage. Especially when you watch the TCW episode "Sacrifice" which validates Yoda's earlier decision in AOTC.



@2:30.

The sacrifice that needs to be made is self-sacrifice, not the sacrifice of others.

The Jedi wouldn't have such a weapon in their possession. It would have already been hidden or destroyed. If the Jedi had the Death Star plans and were going to either hold onto or destroy them, then the Sith could exploit their weakness by going after an innocent civilian. If there is no way for a single Jedi to stop the Sith, then yes, that would be the case. But with so many Jedi at the time, it would be far more difficult to pull off. Not impossible, but more difficult. This is the general rule of the hero/superhero. That they're so noble and honorable, that they would choose to do such a thing.

Not with so many Jedi and not without getting the power handed to him legally. He played the long game by holding the whole universe hostage, which forced the Jedi to fight in the war and allowed him to accomplish many goals at once.

The parents make that sacrifice willingly. Shmi knew what she was giving up when she asked Qui-gon for help and he came up with the solution to free Anakin so that he could be trained. A good parent will do what is best for their child. As to the last, again, the Jedi cannot ignore one person for the sake of many. That is not their way.

I was referring to when they're in the corridor and she warns Luke off. She doesn't say, go after Han. She tries to warn him. Later on, when Luke is in a better position to help, they go off and prepare as a Jedi would.

See the script passage above and the tree cave. Luke could still escape the carbonite chamber and he didn't have to fight Vader. He chose to out of a desire for revenge and personal glory.

But that is not the case.

THREEPIO: "Noisy brute. Why don't we just go into lightspeed? We can't? How would you know the hyperdrive is deactivated? The city's central computer told you? Artoo-Detoo, you know better than to trust a strange computer."

He doesn't say anything about hacking into the Executor via the Cloud City computer. It's Cloud City's central computer that tells him this. They'd make the log because they're not able to report to him directly by the time they find out. Remember, Lando is told that it was fixed by his people. The Empire wouldn't be so reckless to put it in the computer.

Qui-gon was undercover on Tatooine and hiding that he was a Jedi. He played a long game rather than risk exposing himself. What he did in "Tatooine Ghost" was done in a hurry as he didn't have time to go personally. But if a group of Jedi come there, without bothering to hide themselves, their presence would be noted by the Hutts.

That doesn't mean that diplomatic measures were ever out of the question. This why Padme and Bail talk about resuming negotiations throughout the war.

The novelization is wrong. AOTC and TCW are right.

There are differences is the point. Luke has to wait and finish his training, before he can mount a rescue. This is why he has failed to do so at Cloud City and succeeds on Tatooine. Anakin is making the same mistake by acting emotionally. Yoda is not doing so and makes a clear choice.

Who says that he didn't and his ship wasn't destroyed as Obi-wan and Anakin's ship was destroyed? Vader, at the very least, should have made sure that the Falcon never flew again.

 

Neither does stopping the war before it starts make Yoda a terrible friend or a terrible Jedi (the opposite of a terrible Jedi in fact).

Luke was told not to go because there was a greater need. And that fulfilling that need was more important than his compassion for his friends in that moment. Particularly since completing his training honoured what Luke and Han were fighting for. Trying to rescue them when all he was doing was falling into a trap they have been used as bait in would not honour what Han and Lei had fought for.

Hard to take thought it is, leaving Anakin and Obi Wan to their possible deaths, if it meant that Dooku could not escape and start the war that all Jedi swore to prevent at any cost to themselves and their comrades (selfless) would honour what they fought for.

Dooku was not stopped (thanks to his unmolested escape ship). The war was begun. And hundreds, thousands of Jedi died as a direct result. All for Obi Wan and Anakin's sake.

 

What does make for a terrible Jedi is not helping someone who was in need of help, just to stop a war from spreading.

Again, their deaths were not certain. That is why he didn't need to rush off to save them. Luke is going off based on fear. As we see, Han is frozen which means that he will not die. Leia and Chewie have an opportunity to live, whether Vader left them on Cloud City or took them to either Mustafar or Coruscant. Meaning Luke had all the time necessary to rescue them. Anakin and Obi-wan, on the other hand, were about to die and Yoda could save them even though it means letting Dooku escape. It is the right thing to do, no matter what. This is why Yoda is given the great gift and Palpatine tried to goad him into ignoring Anakin, in order to prevent him from executing the last leg of his plan.

 

Stopping wars is the Jedi's purpose to which they are selflessly devoted.

There was no certainty that Anakin and Obi-Wan would have died.

Yoda's behaviours and powers are inconsistent simply for the sake of the Dooku escaping plot.

 

Well perhaps Yoda had the Dooku situation in mind when he said that to Luke , perhaps he felt it was a mistake to save them instead of stopping Dooku . But this is one of the common themes in drama , characters are presented with dillemas which have no clear cut answer .
In the Dooku case Yoda had no time to think , he just reacted . On Dagobah Yoda may have felt more tactical having lived thru the horrors of the galactic war .

Should Luke have abandoned his training to save his friends ? I don't think there's any right answer to that .

 

Absolutely it's common in drama and it's a credible dilemma.

The thing is, there's this Jedi code, forbidding anything but universal love and selfless devotion to the greater good. The Jedi's reason for being is to safeguard peace, whatever the cost to themselves.

It's not just a hope that, in the moment, saving one's friends will be good for everyone in the long term. The Jedi train for years with a certain ethos that predetermines their actions for a specific end.

It's credible that you or I should be concerned predominantly with the people we care about. But Jedi are disciplined to do what they must.

Coming from Yoda, it highlights that the Jedi, in spite of their ideals, don't always practice what they preach. And that this discord is a significant factor in Anakin's susceptibility to turn his back on them.

It's clearly not enough to condemn Anakin for defying the code and the council. Some of that behaviour is learned from other Jedi.

 

There was a certainty that they'd die.

@2:32, you can clear see that they'd both be crushed to death by the crane. Thus it was very certain that they would die, whereas Han is alive and frozen in carbonite and Leia and Chewie make an escape attempt.

There is a right answer and it is what we saw. That Luke didn't help them and instead had to be saved instead. Had he finished his training, he could have gone to their rescue.

It's not that the Jedi don't practice what they preach, it's that some people misinterpret what it is that the Jedi do with regards to helping others. Haven't you ever noticed in the films and in the two cartoon series, that no Jedi was ever chastised for saving lives at the expense of stopping the war early? Why is Yoda given a reward for saving Anakin over preventing Protocol 66? Why isn't Luke given a rebuke for helping his friends after it's all over and done with?

The greater good must not come at the expense of innocents, especially in the immediate moment. What the Code specifies is that a Jedi must live a life of selflessness and yet, have compassion for everyone. It isn't that one person has more value than another, but that a Jedi must not be swayed by personal threats to their loved ones or else it will result in their downfall. Anakin becomes preoccupied with saving Padme to the point that it results in his betrayal of everyone and everything that he holds dear. This is why attachments are forbidden, but as Lucas also said, the Jedi are allowed to love without becoming attached to a single person. Anakin turns his back on the Jedi, not because of this perception of hypocrisy, but because he is unwilling to accept that he cannot save everyone and that he cannot stop nature. If he had truly understood that then, as he does later on, he would not have fallen and he would not have lost Padme. But he cannot see past the choice that he has already made, because he does not understand why he is making this choice. Luke understands the choice to spare his father and to stop worrying about his friends, which is how he is able to help save his father and redeem him.

 

Except for Anakin on two occasions. Wanting to save Padme, who may or may not be dying, on Geonosis and wanting to help his clone wing men in the battle of Coruscant.

Then there's the dialogue about loyalty to a cause rather than loyalty to each other's safety from the novelisation that states the Jedi policy explicitly. Dialogue that you've quoted to me in the past because it defines Anakin's selfishness but which you've repeatedly ignored here.

The fact that Yoda doesn't receive a reprimand is because he happens to be head of the Jedi council. It's not an obstacle to what I'm saying if there is a double standard in the way some Jedi behave and are treated. Double standards are precisely what I'm alluded to.

 

So 200+ Jedi go just to save one Jedi?
Also, the jedi don't leave right after Obi-Wan's transmission was cut off.
They waited for the senate to hold their vote and all that.
Only when that was done did they leave.
If Obi-Wan was the goal and not Doku and the seps army, they would have left right away.

Assuming that Yoda would have ever told him.

Would it?
Yoda and Obi-wan sense nothing good in Vader, neither does Palpatine.
Luke did sense in ESB and that is why he is so determined to save his father.
Had he not had that encounter then his view would be that of Obi-Wan, that Vader is an evil monster and that must be killed.

But here Obi-Wan points out that Luke held firm during his ordeal and that he came through the experience stronger and is now more patient. So he learned a lot from this.
Would he have learned as much if he stayed?
Uncertain. He certainly would not have learned that there is still good in his father.
Which is crucial for a lot of what Luke does in RotJ.

Or Stover got it right as what he wrote fits with both AotC and ESB.

ESB proves you wrong as there Yoda told Luke that he should SACRIFICE Han and Leia.

In ESB Yoda directly says that Luke should sacrifice Han and Leia if he honors what they fight for.
Or take ANH, when Luke finds the dead Jawas and realizes that the empire would go after his home next, he rushes off but Obi-Wan tries to tell him no.
Obi-Wan could not have know if the empire were there yet or not.
So there was a chance to save Owen end Beru. But he still spoke against it as it was too dangerous.
So saving them was too risky so leave them to their fates and Obi-Wan was ok with that.

Also, Obi-Wan and Anakin ARE Jedi so they are ok with self-sacrifice.
So Yoda would have less reason to save them then if it were just some innocent bystanders.

Other ex, take Mace in the arena, Dooku calls for their surrender but Mace refuses, saying that they will not be hostages to be bartered with.
And there was one non-Jedi there, Padme and yet Mace was ok with letting her die along with the rest of them.
So Mace was prepared to let all his fellow Jedi with him die rather than be used by Dooku.
If a Jedi must never, ever let a bystander die then Mace must give up since Padme's life was in danger.
And yet Mace was prepared to let dozens of Jedi die, along with one non-Jedi.
And Yoda could not let just two Jedi die?
Mace choosing death would gain them little but Yoda stopping Dooku would greatly benefit them.

So you think that the Jedi would prefer to let millions die just to save one person?
If that is not anti-Jedi then I don't know what is.
Also I have read several superhero stories where the hero is blackmailed to give up something to save a person they care about. And where they don't give up.
In one, the hero chooses to destroy the device he was working on because he could not give it up as it would be a terrible weapon in the wrong hands. He does save this person in the end but he destroyed the device before trying this and he didn't know if it would work.

Or take ST2, TWoK, Khan interrogates and even kills a lot of people involved in the Genesis project but they tell him nothing. Because they too realize the destructive potential of the device. So here people also sacrificed others to stop a great evil. Carol Marcus could maybe have saved them by giving Khan everything but she doesn't.

And if they change their minds? Do the siblings of the child also make that sacrifice?
And it still has the Jedi ask others to do a sacrifice.
The Jedi loose nothing, the parents loose their child.

And Yoda had no problem with letting Han and Leia die to keep Luke away from Vader.
So that is very much their way.
And you and others have repeatedly said this.

The Jedi should ignore the suffering of Shmi and all the slaves on Tatooine.
And even if they knew she would die, the Jedi should still NOT act.
You have argued that Shmi's death was "fated", "Meant to be" so in that regard, the Jedi would be wrong to try and save her. They should just let her die.
And this is what Yoda advises in RotS, let people die and don't fret about it, be happy for them.

Leia's first priority is to get Luke away, she knows that he is more valuable to Vader than her and Han.
Had she been freed and met up with Luke, she would have asked for his help.
And Luke would certainly not go after Vader.
He came to save his friends, not kill Vader.

Wrong and again with your twisted notions of glory. You have been proven wrong before and yet you keep at it.
When Luke kicked Vader down, he scored a victory, minor yes but he felt that he could perhaps do this.
Not out vengeance or that it would be awesome, but that stopping Vader is the right thing to do.
But after he jumps down and Vader comes after him again does he realize that he had been played.
Vader had been holding back, just for this reason and now Luke is outmatched and he knows it.
After this, he is in a desperate fight to survive and now he can't escape.

But we know that the empire has taken control over the city and changed the security codes. And thus they would have access to the city computer. And if the city computer is connected to the SSD computer, it would know all it knows.

And consider the chain of events.
Lando's people start to repair the MF, Piett's people sneak in and deactivates the hyperdrive and Lando's people keep working and fixes the ship. But they notice that the hyperdrive is not working and that it has been deactivated. So not only do they NOT bother to fix this fairly simple thing, they also don't tell Lando about it and instead just reports that they fixed the ship.
This is quite stupid.
Instead, Lando's people did their work and were finished and told Lando that they were done.
THEN did Piett's people sneak in and deactivated the hyperdirve.
That makes much better sense.

And why would a group of Jedi go there?
They wouldn't but you have to make them morons in order to argue your position.
A single jedi could go there, also under cover and either give Shmi something valuable or simply buy her from Watto.
This is not difficult but you have to make it insanely complicated in order to justify the Jedi's inaction.

No, TCW is wrong and the novelization, which fits with AotC, ANh and ESB is right.

And is his training days from being complete?
No.
The simple fact is this, Yoda and Obi-Wan knows that Luke is walking into a trap on Bespin and they know Luke is not strong enough to beat Vader yet.
So they say that Luke should let Han and Leia die to keep him safe as he is more important that them.

Also, Vader is not a patient man nor does he suffer defeats gracefully.
If Luke does not show, Leia and Chewie would certainly be executed for treason.
Han too or maybe Boba could take him to Jabba.
And if Lando does decide to help them and springs them, with no R2, the would fly away in the MF and just get recaptured and then killed.
So if Luke does not go, he will not have another chance to save them. Maybe Han but that assumes that Luke knows where he is.

And Yoda makes it very clear when Luke asks if he should SACRIFICE Han and Leia, if he honors what they fight for..YES!

Han and esp Leia have been fighting the Empire. Yoda says that ONLY a fully trained Jedi can beat/conquer/stop/destroy Vader and his emperor.
Luke is being trained for this reason.
Thus if Luke is killed/captured/turned then it would mean that this fails and the empire wins.
Leia does not want that and thus Luke is told that he should sacrifice her to honor what she has fought for.

As for Tatooine, say Vader was there, with a legion of troops.
Luke would then be screwed and been either killed or captured.
Now had Vader been there, Luke would likely sense it and he would then alter his plans.
Either he leaves to draw Vader away and then the others can free Han.
Or they simply leave Han for the moment and come back later.

[/QUOTE]

Want to argue that Yoda's ship was destroyed PPOR.
Also, Yoda had an ARMY to command as he saw fit.

If Vader had blown up the MF or done more overt sabotage, then Lando has a much higher chance of finding out about it and he would then use a different ship and Vader looses.
Vader showed some intelligence, far more than Yoda did.
His plain was foiled due to a series of very unlikely events.
Yoda's plan was foiled due to him being a idiot.

To sum up, you idea that a Jedi would never, ever sacrifice someone.
AotC, ANH and ESB proves it wrong as does the RotS novelization.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Anakin was making emotional decisions both times, which Obi-wan saw and was why he was chastised. Not for wanting to help them. Yoda did not make an emotional decision.

Loyalty to principles vs people is about what Anakin chooses to do when he sides with Palpatine, a person who was a friend and a mentor to him, over the Jedi Order where the principle was to stop Darth Sidious from taking over the Republic and turning it into a new Empire. Yoda saving two Jedi is not about loyalty to the two of them, but the principle that a Jedi must protect people in need.

Yoda being head of the Council is not why he wasn't reprimanded and smacks of favoritism. He wasn't because any other Jedi would have done the same thing that he did. All twelve Council members would have done what Yoda did. Not because of a double standard. The only double standard that Anakin sees is Mace willing to kill an unarmed and apparently helpless man, versus Anakin who knows that it was wrong when he said so about killing Dooku.

No, I said "The Jedi's objective was to rescue Obi-wan if he was still alive and deal with the Confederacy before they can launch an attack on the Republic. Once they get there, the Jedi accomplish their objectives and Yoda states that if they have any hope of stopping the war before it spreads, they need to prevent Dooku from escaping."

Yes, he would. He says that Luke wasn't ready to know when he left. He hadn't finished his training first. His intention was to tell him once he was ready to know the truth.

He already has that view in TESB when he fights both the illusionary Vader and the real deal. It is only after reflecting that Luke realizes that there is good within him, which is what he felt. When exactly he first feels it is unknown, but it was in that confrontation and Luke would sense Vader's feelings if they fought on Coruscant or Mustafar.

Yes, he would learn patience and to use better judgment had he stayed. The same way the other Jedi had learned by finishing their training, before taking the trials. Failure is a teacher for a Jedi, but it is not the only measure by which a Jedi learns and grows from their experiences. As it becomes clear from both Obi-wan's dialogue and from what Palpatine says to Vader, Luke has grown far stronger than they had estimated. When Luke went to leave, the Jedi and the Sith both believed that Luke wasn't strong willed enough to reject the dark side. But it turned out he was, which shocked Vader. He's still not 100% at the level needed, but he's far stronger than his father was at that stage. When Anakin failed to save his mother and failed to defeat Dooku, it did strength his resolve to train harder, but it left him with a growing sense of anger over the fact that he wasn't strong enough to begin with. Luke, on the other hand, understood that he needed to be stronger and resolved to become stronger, but his anger wasn't as hot as it was with his father. He had a few moments of slippage during the confrontation with Jabba, but he was in better control than his father had been.

Unlikely given that Yoda again chooses to do as he did before and never once hints that he shouldn't have saved Anakin and Obi-wan.

Yoda says that to Luke because he isn't willing to accept that he has to wait to save his friends, and if they are meant to die, he has to be willing to accept that. Something that he comes to realize when he throws down his Lightsaber and accepts whatever fate has in store for both him and his friends.

No, that's not it at all. Obi-wan tells Luke that it is too dangerous to go. Meaning that if he goes, he will be killed by the Stormtroopers. Luke only has a simple rifle which is probably no match against Stormtrooper armor and he has no weapons other than a Lightsaber, which he has no training with and no knowledge of what he can do with it. As it turns out, Luke arrives too late because they're already dead. Obi-wan isn't sacrificing them or telling Luke to let them die.

Mace wasn't going to let any of them be used as hostages, because it was their lives that were at stake. Not that of an innocent bystander. Padme was willing to risk her life to help Obi-wan, which is why she went there in the first place. She already proved before that she was willing to lay down her life like that, ten years earlier on Naboo. A random child being held hostage, is a different matter. If a Jedi cannot find a way to stop the Sith or anyone else, then they must choose a better course of action. Anakin and Obi-wan backed down when surrounded on the Invisible Hand and waited for an opportunity. In the original first encounter with Grievous, where Shaak Ti was killed, both Jedi don't go for their weapons and instead wait. Once she was killed, then do they draw their Lightsabers. Likewise, Luke concocted his rescue of Han by arranging a situation that would benefit him on his terms, rather than on Jabba's terms. Even knowing that Leia might fail to get Han free and that his plan could go off the rails, before getting out to the Sarlaac.

And yet, that's what Yoda did on Geonosis.

In "Superman II", Superman has Zod where he wants him and surrenders to save Lois from being killed by Ursa and Non. Now, granted, he did have a plan, but he did back down because of Lois. So, yes, a hero will back down like that.

Yes, when there is a weapon of terrible destruction. In your hypothetical scenario, unless the Jedi have the Death Star plans and Palpatine uses a child as a bargaining chip, then the Jedi would probably sacrifice like that. But if there is nothing like that involved, then a Jedi would surrender and wait for an opportunity.

At that point, they've given up all parental rights.

If there are any. The Tiplar Jedi were siblings who were trained as Jedi. Their parents gave them up. The siblings don't get a vote since the parents are the ones who decide.

The parents often give up their child because they can have a better life as a Jedi, than what they would otherwise. Shmi gave up Anakin because she didn't want him to be a slave anymore and wanted Qui-gon to help him with his gifts. The parents who say no are not forced to anything, but their names are cataloged for future reference.

The Jedi exercise caution and patience which Luke isn't willing to listen to. The Jedi were right, because Luke has to be saved from Vader and he gained nothing from that encounter, other than an object lesson in the benefits of patience.

I never said that. I said that it is not within their mandate to go to Tatooine and throw their weight around. Shmi was not suffering as a slave. Not like she would have been if she was in Jabba's possession. She was, for all intents and purposes, fine on Tatooine and when she was freed, she was living a very nice life until she decided to go pick mushrooms one morning.

My point was that it may have been the will of the Force that she die as she did. That Anakin needs to accept that there are times when he can act and times when he shouldn't act. I have also said that if Anakin had contacted Obi-wan, they might have found a solution together.

No, what Yoda advises is what people do when they are told that a loved one might die. To not let fear of loss dominate their every waking moment, which is what Anakin was doing the whole time. As Yoda told Ezra, it is a life long challenge to not let fear become anger. When my loved ones became ill with cancer, I felt fear of loss at first. But each time, I learned to not let the fear dictate how I lived my life. That I had to go on living. This was the same thing my mom had to do both times with my stepfather and my brother. If all you do is let the fear of loss control your life, then you aren't living. We had to spend every moment living and holding onto positive emotions and feelings, and to not let the negative win over the positive. And we are told many times at funerals, to rejoice and celebrate the life that is lost.

Anakin let the fear of loss drive him to the dark side, instead of meditating and training to let go of that fear and to see things more clearly.

He was there to do both. He knows that Vader is there and is waiting for him.

I'm not talking about the kick. I'm talking about going up against an opponent who has done terrible things to him and to others. He wants to face him because of this. This is why he failed in the cave, where his greatest fear manifested itself as his greatest enemy to be conquered.

Or they did one more inspection after Piett's people were done and had logged it in five minutes before Lando's betrayal, unaware that Lando didn't have time to go looking and trusted that everything was fine. We also don't know if it wasn't a droid that made the notation. They're not always known for being critical thinkers.

A group of Jedi could go as back up since they're going to a place that's not welcome of strangers. This also assumes that it is a priority to free Shmi, not because Anakin was now a student, but that there was a dire need to free her. Being a slave alone isn't enough. Even Qui-gon admitted as much.

Lucas was involved in the production of TCW and made AOTC. He didn't write the novelization. If the novelization fit, then Yoda wouldn't have bothered to save Anakin and Obi-wan on Geonosis and he wouldn't have bothered to save him in his vision on Moraband.

No, they say that their fates are uncertain. Meaning that there is still time and there is no guarantee that they will die.

That's the point. There are many possible outcomes and their fates are not certain. Luke needs to understand that and accept that as part of being a Jedi. Just like Superman accepts that he cannot save everyone on Earth. Both have to accept that. This becomes clearer to Luke when Obi-wan, in the deleted dialogue, points out that he didn't accomplish his goals. It was only through time, patience and additional training, that he is able to save Han. And later on, he finally understands that if his friends are to die fighting the Empire, he will do them no good if he becomes evil in the act of trying to save them.

That's the point there. Luke has to be smart, not emotional. He was emotional on Cloud City, but not on Tatooine.

 

And this right here shows why your argument fails.

Mace is willing to let 15-20 Jedi die along with a non-Jedi just so that they won't become hostages.
And yet Yoda is NOT willing to let just two Jedi die to stop Dooku escaping and the war spreading.
Again, Anakin and Obi-Wan are JEDI, not innocent bystanders.
If Padme was willing to risk her life, does that not apply to Obi-Wan and Anakin?
Would they not be willing to lay down their lives to stop Dooku?

I think so but Yoda does not. So he does not honor what they have fought for and ignores the mission and does what he told Luke not to do.

This is does not match.
Mace is willing to let many more die for far less stakes. Them becoming hostages will have a far lesser impact that the escape of Dooku.
And yet Mace was willing to let them die but Yoda could not do the same.

You ask why Yoda did this despite Jedi being willing to sacrifice others?
Simple, the writing.
Quite often in the PT, characters are bent to serve the plot.
The plot needs something to happen and so it does, regardless if is makes sense or not.

Dooku must escape, the plot needs this.
So Yoda, who could have brought troops and ships, does not do so because the plot needs Dooku to escape.
Same with him saving Obi-Wan and Anakin, Dooku has to get away so even it violates all that had been established then so be it. Plot demands beats all.

See the above example with Mace.
These two things totally contradict each other, so either Mace is wrong or Yoda is.

Really, but the slaves in need on Tatooine, the Jedi should ignore that unless they are given a mandate to act.
In another thread, the subject was about the TF killing a lot of people on Naboo.
You argued that if we assume that the TF did do this and the Jedi knew about it, they still would NOT act unless given the ok by the senate.

So what does this "principle" amount to?
The Jedi will only save people if they are given the ok. If not, they will stand by and watch millions die.
Not much of a principle if you ask me.
"I will only help if it is convenient for me or if I am allowed to."

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Obi-Wan tells Anakin explicitly that they have a job to do. He says nothing about emotions.

The only principle that's repeated in these movies is the Jedi's mission to safeguard peace and Justice. That's why they decline to help Padme in her need on Geonosis.

It was convenient for Qui Gon to free Anakin on Tatooine but he also points out, as you often do, that it's not really his, the Jedi or the Republic's business. Not much of a principle then.

I don't care what you think it smacks of. Those are the facts.

Exactly. In spite of being eyewitnesses to the invasion, the Jedi preoccupied only with protecting the Queen (who is not helpless, by the way) because they want to draw out a possible Sith lord. They even acknowledge that many Gungans will die but they still cannot get involved because they have a specific mission to accomplish.



Doing what Yoda did was the human thing to do. It has nothing to do with the Jedi code and the reason for having an official order of Jedi at the Republic's disposal in the first place. In fact it's at odds with their commitment to safeguarding peace. It;s the reason they spend their life training themselves the discipline not to respond instinctively to the emotion of compassion when in not doing so they can safeguard lives and peace by doing "what they must".

 

Anakin and Obi-wan being Jedi is irrelevant, because they're still in danger of needing rescue. Same with Padme, same with Joe Blow down the street. What Mace was talking about was allowing themselves to be used against the Republic. That's not the same as the Jedi backing down because someone who is an hostage to be bartered with. If Palpatine had Padme held hostage, the Jedi would back down.

Again, the film shows that Anakin and Obi-wan had a ship with troops and said ship is destroyed. Yoda's ship was similarly destroyed. There's reason to believe that it doesn't happen to Yoda's ship. As to who is right and who is wrong, the answer is clear. Both are right based on the circumstances. There is never a universal right, when it comes to situations like this. Each person has to judge based on what is transpiring and then make decisions based on that.

The principle amounts to the Jedi working with the system, in this case the Republic, to try and make a difference. To not be a power unto themselves. To be held accountable for their actions. The Jedi want to help on Naboo, but they also know that they cannot go off the rails when the Senate is in turmoil. The people on Tatooine are slaves, yes, but not all of them are in need of Jedi assistance. The Republic made its choice to ignore Tatooine and the Outer Rim long ago. The Jedi have to do what they can, when it is possible to do so. To not be vigilantes. And given the damage the Sith caused a thousand years ago, it is not surprising that the Jedi are more cautious when it comes to taking actions.

OBI-WAN: "Don't let your personal feelings get in the way! Follow that speeder!"

No, it meant that Padme may or may not need their help. As Obi-wan states, she would want them to go on without her.

His principle was getting the parts to fix the ship, so that they can get on their way to Tatooine. He wasn't there to free slaves, which was not his mandate that day. On another day, he might go against the rules and try to do something.

No, that's your supposition based on the facts. The Jedi Council is of equal membership, which was why he was the lone holdout on Anakin's being admitted into the Jedi Order. He was no more special than any other Jedi on the Council. Much like the Round Table, where even though Arthur was king, the other knights had equal say and were all treated as equals.

Uh, no. The Gungans serve as soldiers in a war to protect and liberate their world. The same way that the Wookiees, the Mon Calamari, the Uta's, the Pau's and the Twi'Lek's all did the same way in the Clone Wars. They were all willing to do their duty for their worlds, which was why it was acceptable. Qui-gon's statement that many Gungans will die is about making it clear to both Padme and Nass that they understand what is at stake here, which is why both respond as they do.

Except throughout we see the Jedi react compassionately, which means that the Jedi are not disciplined to not save lives instinctively. What they're trained to do is to not respond emotionally. That is why Lucas says that they can love everyone, but not become attached to people. To ignore compassion is to invite the dark side in. That is why Yoda was right both times when he saved someone in favor "doing what they must".

SIDIOUS: "You cannot stop what is to come."

YODA: "Skywalker, no! No!"

SIDIOUS: "Save him, Jedi. Can you save him? Why not let him go? Let him die, and you can stop all that I will do."

YODA: "No! The future is not yours yet. Tempted I will not be. Sacrifice all I am ready to do."

SIDOIUS: "We have failed to break Master Yoda. He is strong. We will need more time if we are to defeat him and the Jedi."

SERENITY: "Yoda. Come back to us, Yoda."

YODA: "Died have I?"

SERENITY: "In a way."

YODA: "Now does my training begin?"

SERENITY: "The one you know as Qui-Gon Jinn will commune with you and guide your training. Like us, you shall learn to maintain your consciousness after death. Enlightenment, spirit, balance. There is...another..."

YODA: "There is...another...Sky...Sky...walker."

 

OK, sorry for butting in with a tangent about Lando’s people and the MF. The only way it’d make sense is that they fixed the ship, logged it in and left. Then Piett’s people came in and sabotaged the hyperdrive. It would be unlike the tech guys to go, “Oh look, this little thing is broken. Bah, log it in and go home guys. We’ve done enough.” They would’ve fixed it. Even if they came back for one more inspection — surely checking the hyperdrive would be part of that inspection.

 

WOW, so much wrong, were to start?
First, you have an almost impressive knack to contradict your won argument.
With Mace you said;

And yet with Yoda them being Jedi is now irrelevant.
It is ok for Mace to let Padme die because she has shown herself to be willing to lay down her life.
Again, haven't Obi-Wan and Anakin shown that?
So if Mace can let Padme and 20 other Jedi die why can't Yoda let Anakin and Obi-Wan die?
Again, they are NOT innocent bystaders.

Second, all the Jedi and Padme were in danger and in need of rescue, some of the Jedi were even unarmed. And Mace was given the chance to save their lives and he choose to sacrifice them ALL.
He was going to sacrifice something like 20 people and that was ok so why is it not ok to sacrifice just two?

Three, Dooku IS holding Padme hostage.
She is surrounded by armed droids and at Dooku's command, they will open fire and she will die.
So by your own argument, Mace WOULD back down but he doesn't.

Fourth, Dooku escaping will be much worse for the Republic than him having a dozen or so hostages.

PPOR!

No there isn't, you just keep making stuff up to suit your argument.

And yet you have tried to claim that there IS a universal right.
That a Jedi must NEVER sacrifice anyone. That if a jedi sees a life in danger, he or she MUST act, regardless of what happens next.

I have argued that the Jedi will try and help if they can but if the stakes are high enough, they can sacrifice the lives of others. See Yoda in ESB, Mace in AotC, Obi-Wan in ANH and the RotS novelization.

And in the case of Dooku, the stakes ARE high, as per Yoda's own words and so he should have let them die and focused on the mission, which is to stop Dooku from escaping.
That he didn't is him making a decision in that moment and he choose to act against the mission and his own goal because he had all too human flaws, he couldn't let two of his friends die.
It was a moment of weakness and Yoda knew it and further he knew that now many more will pay the price for that weakness.

[/QUOTE]

And all this is pretty much what I have said before, the greater good.
That the big picture is their focus, that they won't let themselves get distracted by single people in need or help just a few. The goal is to help the many and sometimes it means that the few suffers.
You have argued this in the past.
That the Jedi must not get bogged down with small concerns, trivial things, their stage is the galaxy and they are movers on a galaxy level.
Working with the senate/republic gives them more options but they also have to accept limitations.

That is why they have the ban against attachment and all that. That a Jedi might choose to help their father or uncle instead of going on an important mission.
To choose to save his friends instead of a ship full of strangers.

Take the choice Spiderman was faced with, save his girlfriend or a cable car full of people.
This was a cruel choice, now in the film he managed to save both.
But say that was not possible.
For a Jedi, this would be easy, first a Jedi wouldn't have a girlfriend and the choice to save one or several dozen is one the Jedi could make in their sleep. Of course they would choose the cable car.
That is a part of their training.
To make them so detached that they would make that choice without any emotions getting in the way.

Which is why your idea that a jedi will drop everything to save just one person even if the stakes are enormous, doesn't work. To ignore orders and the mission and let unimaginable horrors happen just because they can't let even one person die.
It doesn't fit with the films or the RotS novelization.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

It would also be unlike the Empire to even have it logged into the city's central computer, much less that it's hooked into the Executor.

In the arena, the survivors would fight to the death and die on their feet. Padme was not helpless. If Anakin fell, Mace would move over until he fell and then Obi-wan would move over and so on. Anakin and Obi-wan weren't fighting and were helpless. You don't have to be an innocent bystander to be saved by a Jedi. You just need to be in a situation where assistance was required. See, Yoda could have easily sent the LAAT's and the Republic Cruisers to bomb the Droid Foundries and let the Jedi hang in the arena and call it good. He didn't need to save them, according to the belief that Martoto and you share. That would sufficiently enough to prevent the war from spreading. Instead, Yoda risks resources on rescuing a dozen people that he should have let die. Again, according to you.

All of the Jedi survivors in the arena floor had Lightsabers.



Before the battle began, only two didn't (Anakin and Obi-wan) and then they did. Padme had a discarded blaster for a weapon. Mace wasn't going to allow himself and the others to be used as hostages. Yoda was helping two Jedi who could not help themselves. This is what I'm referring to by a case-by-case situation. Also, Padme is not being held hostage. Being held hostage is about surrendering and being unable to extract yourself. Before the Jedi showed up, she was a hostage. Same with Anakin and Obi-wan. Now, they're not.

Why would the defense system that destroyed the first gunship not be there for the second? It's called logical deduction as well as a stylistic choice to not show that and instead have Yoda walk in. The fact that we don't see the gunships after the battle is over is also telling.

The right and wrong in the universe is about what a Jedi should and should never do in the universe. The Jedi should always use the Force for knowledge and defense. They should never use their emotions to fight. They should always help those in need and they should never abuse their gifts. In a situation like the arena, the Jedi are standing on principle that they will not be used to try and force the Republic into giving into their demands. Yoda is also right to save them and the two Jedi who are in danger. It isn't a weakness on Yoda's part to do what he did. Only the Sith consider compassion for other beings as a weakness. It isn't a human flaw on Yoda's part that he saved the two Jedi. If the Jedi felt no compassion for anyone, then they would be like the Sith.

And as I quoted Kirk, sometimes the need of the one is greater than the needs of the many. Or would you say that Kirk was wrong to help Spock and McCoy? Anyway, I have never said that the Jedi should never not help someone in need. When it came to Red Squadron, their job was the same as the Gungans. Distract the enemy to allow the others to get through. If any survived, they'd continue to assist. If they didn't have that mission, then they'd help the clones.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that helping someone else in need was ever forbidden. It just meant that the Jedi in question should not be the one doing the rescuing of a person they're emotionally invested in. That's why I've said that if Anakin had contacted Obi-wan or the Temple, they could have come to Shmi's rescue. And because Luke winds up waiting and preparing, gaining better control over himself, he was able to rescue Han without ill effect.

No, because Peter would still go after Mary Jane first and then the cable car, because it was the right thing to do. Even without being attached to her. To just ignore one over the other is not who he is as a person, even if it means that he fails in some form with Mary Jane falling loose and dying or Peter losing his grip and failing to grab the cable car again and they die.

Except the ROTS novelization doesn't fit with Yoda's actions in AOTC and TCW, both of which show that he was right to do what he did. And as ROTJ points out, Luke was right to rescue Han but only because he learned the lesson in rushing off prematurely and with a heart filled with emotions. Yoda can save the two Jedi and still make an effort to stop the war later. Just as he can save vision Anakin and figure out how to stop the Sith later on, even though it will result in the deaths of many Jedi in the interim. He can fail in one way, but learn from his failure and make an effort to do better. Just as Luke comes to accept that his friends might die, or they might win against the Empire, but he has to accept that their fates are not certain because the future is in motion.

 

Unlike them? Do they have a track record of not ever logging things on a computer? How do you know this?

The Empire doesn't have to log it themselves anyway.

The Empire took control of the city while Lando was preoccupied with Vader, Leia, Chewie and Han etc. The city's central computer had logged the deactivation of the hyperdrive, in spite of Lando's people assuring him they fixed it. There's nothing whatsoever preventing the Falcon's status being logged in the city's computer while Lando accepts his people's word on its repair.

That's not a principle. That's a mission. A stated objective. Preventing Dooku from escaping was the Jedi's stated objective and mission.

And yet they all regularly looked to him for leadership. When they didn't take his advice, he spited them and Anakin by refusing to train him and let a newly knighted Kenobi take on the especially "dangerous" mentoring of the chosen one. Whether he's top dog or just first among equals is irrelevant.

And the Jedi know that with their help, fewer of them could die than would otherwise. But that's not the Jedi's business etc, etc. Their "principle" is finding hyperdrive parts and "protecting" a Queen who is voluntarily putting herself in harm's way. It's utterly perverse.

Yes they are. Because always acting for, and not against, the greater good - the safeguarding of peace throughout an entire galaxy, is not an instinct. It is a discipline that Jedi have to learn over decades. If it was about simply being compassionate to what they are instinctively compassionate about, then the Jedi would not have to train their knights for a whole lifetime.

If Yoda was less attached to Kenobi and Skywalker than he was to his duty, then Dooku would not have been allowed to escape.

Right for him. That's the definition of a "do as I say, not as I do" hierarchy.

 

Still so much wrong.
Mace and the others ARE helpless, they need ASSISTANCE, if Dooku orders the droid to fire and they don't get help, they WILL DIE!
The only reason they survive is, wait for it..THEY GOT HELP.
Doesn't matter if they can fight for another minute or two, they will die unless Dooku stops the attack or if they get help.
Dooku was prepared to let them live but Mace refused. He instead choose to SACRIFICE 20 odd lives for the "greater good".

So there is exactly ZERO difference between Padme and the Jedi in the arena and Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Then you have not been paying attention or are not very good at reading.
I said this; in the post you responded to.

So in the arena, Yoda could save Jedi lives without ruining the overall mission and he did so.
Why he didn't take the opportunity to fire at Dooku who were just standing there is more "plot demands it".

Nope, when Dooku tells the droids to hold their fire, a few captured Jedi are brought forward and put in with the rest.
They are from the never finished "Destroy the control ship" subplot.
Two of them are on the Council I think.
Since they were captured, they don't have any weapons.

Why?
Dooku escaping would do far more harm to the Republic side than the seps having a few hostages.
And even if they submit, they could try to escape later.

And this is still wrong.
Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan were surrounded by droids and would get killed if not for outside intervention.
The SAME situation is seen later when Mace and the few remaining Jedi and Padme are surrounded by droids and would get killed if not for outside intervention.

And Padme IS held hostage, her life is threatened and she will die unless Mace submits. Which he refuses to do and her prefers for her to die rather than giving up.
The mission or the greater good is more important than some individual lives.

Because is is not a defense system, it was the two droids that accompanied Dooku when he flew on his speeder.
He gives them orders to fly away and attack Obi-Wan's and Anakin's ship from behind. Which they do.
So would they be there later?
Padme's ship managed to get there no problem.
No sign of them there.
And Yoda could bring several ships if need be.
No, again, PPOR.

Except this "always" is not true as you have said that the Jedi will not act unless the senate says it is ok.

And the situation for the Republic is far worse if Dooku escapes.

You have said that rules, orders and all that are more important than saving lives.
That the Jedi will not save lives unless they are given the ok from the senate.
So you make it clear that saving lives is less important than following orders or completing the mission.
And this exact thing we have with Yoda and Dooku.
Stopping him from leaving was the mission and Yoda choose to ignore that and save two of his friends.

It is if the senate does not give it's ok.
Or if the deaths are "fated".

Would they?
I think they would have told Anakin to stop thinking about his mother and let go of her.
And if she would die then let her die, Anakin should just not think about it.

Anakin would have asked if they could help her before and been told no, no reason that they would change their minds now.

They will not lift a finger to help because they did not lift a finger to help for ten years.

Obi-Wan was aware that Anakin was bothered by bad dreams and yet he did nothing.
Even with this new dream, why would he change his tune?

Again, read what I write, I said IF the situation was such that ONLY one could be saved.
That either the people in cable car or MJ dies, this is 100% certain.
A Jedi would save the cable car every time.

Yoda could not stop Dooku and save Anakin and Obi-Wan, he had to choose.
And he choose to let Dooku escape, the war to spread and millions more would die.
Just to save two.

[/QUOTE]

But it does fit with Mace in AotC, Yoda in ESB, Obi-Wan in ANH.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor