PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

I know that. I've said that.

Yes, I understand that. My point is that on a principle, Qui-gon cannot just go around freeing slaves because the whim strikes him. That he had an objective doesn't change that. And a Jedi's principle is to save those who need saving, regardless of a missing objective.

They look to him because he's the oldest living Jedi and seek his advice, but they can go against him if need being. He didn't spite them by refusing to train Anakin. He was making his objections known, just as the Knights of the Round Table were allowed to have someone object when it came to decisions being made. He can be reprimanded despite that and yet, he isn't. Just as none of the other Council members were ever reprimanded in similar situations over the years.

In war, people die no matter if there is a Jedi Order to assist or not. Many soldiers still died when the Jedi and the Clone Army were present. What the Jedi could never do was fight an entire war for someone on their own. Even when there were conflicts that required Jedi intervention, most times it was only one or two Jedi who were involved. You should lay the blame more on the Republic than the Jedi, since it was the Senate that disbanded the original army of the Republic long ago and the Senate for becoming so corrupt that it couldn't pull its head out of its own ass.

They have to train them for a whole lifetime to not give into the quick and easy path to power, since it is far easier to surrender to the dark side than it is to work things out on the light.

It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and that he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] suggest that although one can’t see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.

--Star Wars-The Empire Strikes Back: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997.

The compassion is easy to teaching. What's difficult is teaching them the difference between compassion and attachment, because even training from a very young age, the Jedi can easily be confused.

AHSOKA: "It's forbidden for Jedi to form attachments, yet we are supposed to be compassionate."

He wasn't attached at all. He did his duty which is to protect the helpless. Sometimes duties will conflict and clash.

No. The whole point in Yoda's training on the Force planet and on Moraband was to see if he was worthy of being taught how to retain his identity. The first part was in discovering that he still had the potential for evil within himself despite his years of being a Jedi. The second was in letting go of sadness and fear, as well as rejecting the temptations of the dark side which is joy and confusion. The sadness of seeing the Jedi die, but also in wanting a peaceful existence where war doesn't exist and he is surrounded by his loved ones, even those who are dead or have turned. The third test was to reject the offer of dark side by destroying a long dead foe. The fourth test, though, was of the Sith's design and tied back to the start of his quest, which was that Yoda wanted to know who Darth Sidious is and was tempted by the dark side. In that temptation, he had to choose between saving Anakin and letting him die to find out the truth. Yoda chooses to give up his life to save Anakin's, even though it will condemn the Jedi Order and the galaxy. In rejecting this offer and saving someone in need, Yoda was able to gain the knowledge of eternal consciousness. Passing on his knowledge after his death, such as helping Anakin to do this and getting Luke to help on Crait.

Mace's decision is different from Yoda's, because one is a choice made by all the Jedi going into the arena and Yoda making a choice to help those who cannot help themselves. The Jedi in the arena will die, yes, but they will die on their terms. Not on any other. Anakin and Obi-wan need help. They are not making a choice to lay there and die. That's why Obi-wan doesn't say, "Forget us, get Dooku!".

This requires Yoda to know that Dooku was in the arena when he arrives. If you will note, all of the gunships descend on the arena floor and the focus is on the survivors.

Take a closer look. They have their Lightsabers in hand.



Ki-Adi-Mundi, Plo Koon and Aayla Secura all have their Lightsabers and they're the same ones that they had when they first showed up in the arena. There is only one dead Jedi in the survivors circle, so they couldn't have gotten three Lightsabers from him. The only error in this scene is that Ki-Adi has a green saber in one shot and a blue one in the remaining shots in the film.





That's an ILM error.

It's the same principle as insert country will not negotiate with terrorists. Even if they could escape later, which is unlikely given that Obi-wan couldn't escape on his own, they'd still be used in that same capacity in the interim. Both fighting a war and forcing the Republic to give into demands are equally bad, because it is giving the enemy what they want and legitimacy.

The difference is as I said, Padme will fight to the death here. She isn't a hostage because as Mace just said, "We will not be hostages to be bartered with, Dooku". This isn't about a mission here. This is about trying to keep the Republic from giving into the Confederacy's demands.

Yoda didn't need several ships to deal with one Sith Lord. That's why it is just him. As to the other ships, they could have been destroyed by either Yoda's gunship before it was destroyed or by Padme's before it came to a landing.

Yes and when they do have permission to act, they should do so.

How is it worse? If the Confederacy takes control of the Republic, that's just as bad since they can do what they want to anyone that they want.

When did I say that?

No, I did not. I said that the Jedi cannot act as rogue agents. They have to work with the system to bring about peace and change. Shmi was not in danger until she was in danger. Thus the Jedi did not need to go to Tatooine to free slaves. Anakin had to go through with the mission to rescue Palpatine because the plan was for Red Squadron to be the distraction. Obi-wan had to go with Qui-gon instead of going to help the Gungans. Luke has to wait and finishing his training before attempting to save Han and Leia.

And it was the right thing to do as a Jedi.

No, it meant that the Battle of Naboo didn't need the Jedi's intervention beyond finding out if Maul was a Sith. The Battle is won despite the Jedi.

Shmi's death was the result of fate. She made a choice to pick mushrooms. The Tuskens weren't put up to it. Watto didn't kill her. It was her time to die. This is why Anakin cannot see her fate until it is too late and he arrives in time to see her die. Padme's perceived death appears to be natural, in which case, that is her fate to die. Yoda's fate is to die in bed as he does, rather in the field of battle. That's fated.

She didn't need help ten years ago. She did now.

As I've said, neither Jedi knew it was serious. Anakin just has dreams of his mother. He's not concerned otherwise he wouldn't have changed the subject, when Obi-wan says that dreams pass in time. When he realizes it is serious, that's when he decides to go. If he had told them what he told Padme, they would have helped him. The reason Yoda doesn't offer direct help to Anakin, because he doesn't tell him the truth. That was the time to come clean and he doesn't. Yes, Obi-wan would most definitely help Anakin.

And read what I said, Peter would still try to save both every time, regardless of knowing that he might fail, he will still try. Spider-Man would never, ever make a choice where he couldn't try to save both and let someone die like that. Remember that Norman thought that it was 100% certain that he couldn't save both and yet, Peter still proved him wrong.

No, they'd try to save both every time.

And he did the right thing.

Mace was doing something different in the arena as he was not surrendering which is different from saving lives of those who cannot save themselves. Obi-wan did not sacrifice the Lars when he told Luke that it was too dangerous to go and as we saw, he was already long too late. And as to Han and Leia, they didn't die. Which was what they were trying to tell Luke, because their situation was not clear. When he asks if he should sacrifice them, Yoda's reply is about Luke has to be willing to accept that a time will come when he cannot save his friends and trust in the Force. He finally gets it when he does this.

 

It's not a whim. It's compassionate and it's just.

So what Yoda feels is right in the moment and what needs being done are not necessarily the same thing. I'm glad our minds meet somewhere.

If Yoda were more attached to the principle and stated mission to prevent war from spreading, Kenobi and Skywalker might have died, but millions more would not have perished in the war that spread as a result of Dooku being allowed to escape.


Yoda would not have broken off from Dooku make heavy work of moving that thing that the Sith lord had very little trouble toppling because he was afraid for his two Jedi's lives. Yoda could not have known their fate (as he's always fond of saying - always in motion is the future).

If anyone in the galaxy is going to appreciate that the certain endangerment and death of millions of galactic civilians, true innocents, require their compassion and for their actions to safeguard their peace and their lives is abhorrent particularly if the cost of its prevention over the lives of two Jedi Knights (Knights = warriors,first and foremost, who have adopted a certain degree of piety and affectations like chivalry in order to keep their conscience and their reputations relatively clean) who have voluntarily put themselves in harm's way because they have an objective - to prevent Dooku from spreading war across the galaxy. Particularly after many Jedi have already died to that specific end.

To maintain that letting Dooku escape and spread war and death to thousands of systems is the acceptable price of Obi-Wan, Anakin and then Yoda doing what only what their supposed principles demand of them is completely perverse.

Tell me where or when it is stated that Jedi, on principle, focus their compassion on two people who might die when they know that doing so ensures the death of millions of others. Because the movies depict the Jedi.

Universal love is not the instinct to help only those in close proximity front of you who seemingly need help. Of course, it's the definition of human compassion to not arbitrarily or judicially deny assistance to someone who would not otherwise survive without it. But being a Jedi isn't about being human. It's about their universal (radically balanced) love for the galaxy. If that cannot be satisfied without the avoidance of unbalanced compassion (borne of fear for their lives). Basic human compassion, of the visceral immediate nature like reaching out to prevent harm, physcial or emotional, is not something that takes a lifetime of 1-2-1 instruction. It is radically balanced compassion, consciously universal love, that takes training and harsh discipline to achieve.

The reason that Sidious and Tyranus know that they will succeed, is because they know deep down that the Jedi do not, cannot adhere to their stated philosophy of radically balanced, universal love at all times.

 

You either don't get it or refuse to accept reality.
Padme and the other Jedi ARE helpless. Meaning they will DIE unless they get help or Dooku spares their lives. That they can fight for another minute or two does not matter. They will die.

If you argue that Padme and the Jedi in the arena made a choice to be there, then so too did Anakin and Obi-Wan.
They CHOOSE to go after Dooku, despite the risk, because the mission was to stop him escaping.
So they are there by their own free will, had they chosen to not go after Dooku, they would not be needing help.
So if Mace is ok with sacrificing Padme and the other Jedi, who never say they agree to this, then Yoda would equally be ok with sacrificing Anakin and Obi-Wan.

All that would require is for Yoda to use his eyes as Dooku is standing in plain view on a balcony.
Or that Mace or any other Jedi yells, "Shoot at Dooku!".
But alas such simple things are apparently beyond the Jedi.
Or rather, the plot requires them to be stupid and so they are.

So they were taken captive but kept their weapons?
Wow, that's idiotic.

Also, why did they allow themselves to be taken captive?
Mace would rather die than submit so why didn't they?

First, if the Republic will not negotiate with terrorist/the seps then Dooku gains nothing.
If the Republic will not give anything for their safe return then they are of no value to him and he would likely kill them. So no difference to what Mace choose.
Second, in RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan allowed themselves to be taken captive in Griev ship and they did escape soon after.
In RotJ Luke surrendered to the Empire.
Third, No, the seps getting some hostages and Dooku escaping are nowhere near equally bad.
The former will only affect the Republic if they choose to negotiate, which you seemed to argue that they won't. The latter is far, far worse as now the war spreads.
Had Dooku been killed/captured then the war will not spread and would likely be over before it even starts.
So there is no comparison between them.

And as I said, Padme being able to fight or not does not matter in the slightest.
She IS a hostage and Dooku uses her and the other Jedi to get Mace to surrender.
If it was just Mace there, I doubt he would have made any offer.
And like I also said, if the Republic will not negotiate, then they are of no value as hostages.

His goal is to stop Dooku escaping, if Dooku is in a ship when Yoda gets there, having more ships will improve his chances of shooting it down before it flies away.
And there is still fighting going on, so taking more ships gives him better protection and increases his chances of getting to Dooku without getting killed or slowed down.
In ANH, the rebels don't send up just ONE X-Wing, they send up 30.
More fighters increases the chance of completing the mission.
Yoda has a lot of resources to draw upon and the only reason he doesn't is that the plot requires him to be an idiot.

Also, an explosion happening just outside the hangar, that would make a noise but we hear nothing like that just before Yoda walks in.
I am getting tired of repeating myself so this will be the last time;
Want to argue Yoda's ship got destroyed, PPOR!

So you agree that orders and permission are more important than saving lives.
If permission is not given then they will not save lives.

Do I really need to explain this?
Dooku is the LEADER of the seps, capture/kill him and they are very much weakened.
Failure to do this will lead to the war spreading, Yoda even says this.
Also, so you think the Republic would surrender totally just to save a few Jedi and Padme?
Again, if the Republic will not negotiate then the seps gain nothing.

So yes, Dooku escaping is a 1000 times worse than Mace and the others being taken captive.

When you said that the Jedi will not act unless the senate gives them permission.
So if the Jedi KNOW that a lot of people are dying but the senate will not give them the ok to act, they will let these people die.

In other words, the greater good.

She was a slave with a bomb inside her on a planet run by gangsters, of course her life was in danger.

Nope, the jedi way places more importance on the mission and the greater good and stopping Dooku was the mission and would benefit the greater good. Letting him escape does the opposite.

Which the Jedi could not have known ahead of time unless they had read the script.
And suppose that Padme had decided to stay on Coruscant.
You have said many times that the Jedi must not "interfere" with the TF.
So they would not go there and would let the Naboo people suffer and die.

It is very convenient for you that you get to decide whose death's are fated and whose are not.
And again, Anakin and Obi-Wan made a choice to go after Dooku.

No they wouldn't.
We know this because Anakin does tell Yoda that he has visions about someone that are very serious and Yoda only tells him to do nothing and let go of his emotions and be happy when they die.
So had he told them about Shmi, their response would be the same, "Do nothing, let go of of your feelings, don't be sad, be happy."
Yoda says not one word about this could be prevented or that he might be able to save this person.
Thus, he would say the same in AotC and not lift a finger to help Shmi.

You still don't get it.
Ok, take the Dark Knight and what the Joker did with Harvey Dent and Rachael, both have bombs near them and Batman will only be able to get to one of them.

So with Peter, MJ is there, with a bomb strapped to her and another bomb is on a buss on the other side of town. And Peter is given two buttons, if he presses A, then MJ dies and the bus is ok, if he presses B then MJ is fine but the bus blows up.
If he presses neither button within five seconds both die.

Yoda can NOT save Anakin and Obi-Wan and stop Dooku, he is forced to make a choice and he saves two at the cost of millions.

[/QUOTE]

Again, there is NO difference with Mace. He is given a chance to save people that are helpless and will die, he refuses and so sacrifices 20 people.
Obi-Wan could not have know if the empire were close or not, but the risk of going were too great.
So better to not go and risk Luke's life.
What Yoda told Luke is that if he honors what Han and Leia have fought for, he should sacrifice their lives.
But Yoda does not practice what he preaches, he does NOT honor what Obi-Wan and Anakin have fought for, stopping Dooku.
As for Luke in RotJ, why he stops fighting is because he sees that if he goes down this path, the will become like Vader, a servant of evil. And he knows that this will in no way save his friends.
So he refuses to feed his anger and hate anymore, and refuses to be turned and become something horrible.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

As far as the dreams thing goes, half of that is on Anakin for not filling in all the details. As far as the Jedi know, it’s nothing to worry about. Dreams about his mother? He could be dreaming of the time he made Bantha soup with her. Dreams about suffering and death? He had been fighting a war for three years, so maybe he keeps having flashbacks of all the deaths that happened; or for all they know, Obi-Wan dying in battle. The Jedi can only work with the information they have.

 

But it wasn't his place to go and do it. Just because you have the power to do something, doesn't mean that you always have to do it. That's why there is a big responsibility being a Jedi.

Not necessarily. A Jedi will always feel it right to save a life, so long as they go about it the right way. The wrong thing to have done would be to let them die. Even the Council would find fault in an argument that it was necessarily to let them die.

Actually, their fate was pretty clear. They were going to be crushed.



@2:23.

Depict the Jedi what? We see Qui-gon waste time, as some would put it, on freeing Anakin and wagering on a podrace. We see Anakin stopping to rescue Obi-wan while chasing Zam and Obi-wan not chastising him for doing so. We see Anakin save Obi-wan on the Invisible Hand and later argue, not about the merits of it, but how many times it was done. Obi-wan leaves to shut down the tractor beam before finding out Leia was alive. We see Luke spend time rescuing Han, time which could have been spent assisting in other battles or missions.

I never said otherwise. Compassion means that the Jedi help everyone that they can help and are able to do so.

Being a Jedi means that they must help those who are in need whenever they can. And part of the lifelong training centers around being able to use the Force without succumbing to fear, anger and hate. A Jedi can save the lives of their own and total strangers without surrendering to fear. Otherwise, the Jedi would never be able to function at all.

Actually, they know that they will succeed because their compassion for all living beings can be exploited by creating a situation where the Jedi will take part in a war, despite it being wrong to do so. If they had stayed out of the war and concentrated on trying to find the Sith, then they wouldn't have been their pawns. But they cannot ignore the worlds that are in danger and as a result, they will fight in the war and thus will contribute to the unbalancing of the Force.

The Jedi agreed to face the Separatists and to not be hostages. That is their philosophy. They make a choice to fight to the death and that is what they were all prepared to do. Anakin and Obi-wan were prepared to fight to the death against Dooku, but he did not kill them. He merely wounded them until he decided to kill them, in order to cover his escape. Herein lies the difference, because they were not fighting for their lives. They were more helpless than in the arena. It is how they choose to fight and win, that matters.

Yoda isn't focusing on Dooku, he's focusing on directing the battle and the rescue. Mace is focusing on not getting shot.

The rest of the Jedi team were killed as they were fleeing the control ship and went back to the arena. They were then directed towards the arena by the Battle Droids and into the survivors circle. The reason their Lightsabers were off was because they had entered the arena right as Dooku gave the signal for the droids to stand down. The three shut down their sabers and allowed themselves to be ushered into the circle. They ignited their Lightsabers again right when Dooku gave the order to terminate them.

It was most likely an empty gesture on Dooku's part, trying to play the part of noble ex-Jedi.

They knew that they could escape because Grievous has a nasty habit of collecting Lightsabers and the only reasonable thing to do was to go the bridge and take control.

He surrendered in order get to Vader, so that he could confront him and to keep him from finding out about the strike team. Luke had no intention of fighting his way in, much less escaping.

Except that the Jedi don't know that Sidious is out there and that he can continue the war without Dooku.

The Republic might negotiate, but as I said, it might have been an empty offer. But as to being a hostage, none of them are hostages until they surrender.

The other LAAT's were concentrating on assisting on the battle field. Yoda only spared his ship as he believed that it would be enough. And odds are Dooku's escorts were still hanging around. Ergo, Yoda was dropped off and they were either shot down or engaged them.

Post proof that three Jedi had no Lightsabers and then magically get them, when we don't see it. As to not hearing the sounds, that doesn't mean much. Dooku doesn't even hear the explosions when Anakin and Obi-wan run in.

It means that the Jedi are cautious because if they act out of turn, it will result in the Senate turning on the Jedi and possibly stripping them of their ability to function as a whole. Possibly even leading to imprisonment or extermination.

No, Sidious is the leader. Dooku is just the public figurehead and scapegoat.

Dooku and Mace seemed to think so.

The Jedi will wait until the Senate has elected a new Chancellor and see what steps he will take. Meanwhile, they've guessed that Padme intends to fight.

Working with the Republic as part of a symbiant circle, yes. But the Jedi being more judicious in their actions so as to not make the mistakes of the past that lead to the Sith.

A bomb that would not go off so long as she did not try to escape and was already secretly switched off by Watto. She was actually better off with Watto than she was with the the Lars, as it was the Tusken Raiders that killed her and not the bomb, nor the Hutts.

Except that as we know, the only way to victory lies with Anakin. Ergo, saving him was the right thing to do.

That wasn't my point.

Then the Jedi would wait for the election and the new Chancellor.

If the Senate had voted to intervene and asked the Jedi to do so, then the Jedi would have taken as many as need be to Naboo and helped out.

Me? I didn't write the films. George Lucas did. He decided their fates.

A religious minded person will say that it was God's will that someone lives or dies. If a doctor isn't able to save someone, a priest or a rabbi will say, "It was God's will". Likewise, they will say the same thing again if the doctor saved them. Trenton McKinnely was declared brain dead and taken off life support. Shortly thereafter, he woke up and is on the road to recovery. People consider it a miracle and God's will that he survived. Thus it wasn't his fate to die that day. His fate might be to die when he's much older and from other causes.

And Yoda makes a choice to save them.

No, Yoda tells Anakin to train himself to let go of his fears. Every action that he takes is based on fear. If he had let go of his fears, if he had told Yoda everything, she wouldn't have died because of him.

QUI-GON: "Be wary. Give power to that which you fear, and it will show itself to you."

He cannot see why she dies, just that she will die. Yoda also advised him to be careful when sensing the future.

Nope. If he had told Yoda that he sees her suffering and in pain, that he could see it, Yoda would have considered sending someone. Yoda is not told all there is about what he sees with Padme.

I remember that movie. But I also remember it a bit differently.

GORDON: "Which one you going after?"

BATMAN: "Rachel."

GORDON: "We're getting Dent!"

Yes, Bruce couldn't rescue both given the distance in between and only a Kryptonian or a Speedster could save both in time. But a police commissioner could save one, while the vigilante goes after the other. Bruce gets to Harvey and gets him out in time, while Jim arrives too late to get inside. The point is that even though Bruce had to make a choice, he still made the choice and in this case, made it knowing that Jim would have his back otherwise. Likewise in the next film, he knows that he cannot be in two places at once, which is why he convinces Selina to help him do what he cannot do on his own.

Peter would never press the button. Ever. If you're a Spider-Man fan, you would know this. This is a guy who made a deal with Mephisto because he refused to let his aunt die. You think he's going to intentionally kill one person to save another? I hate to tell you, he wouldn't.

Right. He started fighting because he was told that the only way to save his friends was to give into the dark side and kill him. Luke has to accept that he does not have to save them, because their fates are their own and they can decide to fight to the death or to not fight at all. His turning to save them will not do any good.

Right and now was the time to come clean. Full truth. But he didn't and he pays for it.

 

Only "secretly switched off" in the Legends-verse - Tatooine Ghost novel.

 

True, but that may come back later. That point is she was never in immediate need until she's kidnapped. And it's not like something couldn't happen to her away from Tatooine. She could have been hit by a speeder while crossing the street.

 

To death? Is that why Yoda went to the hangar in the first place. Because he sensed that Obi Wan and Anakin would die? Or beceause he was concerned that they would fail to prevent Dooku from escaping unless he went there?

Yoda's place, like all Jedi's, was to safeguard peace in the galaxy. And sacrificing one's friends if that's what it takes is what they train themselves to be perpared to do.

So you're saying that, hypothetically, the council would have admonished Yoda for doing what he and the Jedi are sworn to do, because Obi Wan and Anakin died failing to do what Yoda succeeded in. Despite the fact that If it wasn't for Yoda and the clones, many more Jedi than the ones that did die in the arena would have perished. Nonsense.

I don't know why you keep looking for a reprimand from one of the characters in order for it to be reaffirmed what the Jedi's supposed ideals are. Just because the characters in the movie aren't written in order to explicitly spoon feed what is subtext doesn't mean actual contradictions in word and deed of the Jedi isn't there. Nobody says "Well done. You didn't prevent Dooku from escaping or the war from starting becase you were afraid that Kenobi and Skywalker would die. Nice work."

They can help anyone they like. There's no law against it. But the choose only to do the senate's expressed will re Naboo and other matters.

That's what I said. Helping Obi Wan and Anakin at the expense of the millions who will die in the coming war, whether the Jedi take part in it or not, is then kind of imbalance that the Jedi are suppposed to be above. Or so they say.

Try imagining for a second, the senate having hearings about whether the Jedi were fit for purpose. In an examination of master Yoda, the leading member of the Jedi council reveals that, if it were a choice of helping two Jedi who have come to harm while combatting a Sith lord, or stopping he Sith Lord from escaping and preventing the spread of a war that will kill millions of innocent people who are not even involved - Yoda, and by extenstion of this so called principle , all Jedi, would always give preference to the two Jedi over the millions of innocents who would die.

 

It seems to be the latter since it happens after the argument between the two had concluded. That he sensed and suspected that they might not be able to do this. Though Dooku only attempts to crush them because Yoda has him in a stalemate and he realizes that he might not win this fight. Before Yoda shows up, he was going to either bisect Obi-wan or decapitate him, when Anakin blocks his attack. When Anakin is taken out of the equation, he falls unconscious by Obi-wan and Dooku is further away. He takes a moment to exhale as Anakin was almost too much for him and then he hears Yoda's arrival. But as to the moment when they're about to be killed, yes, they're about be crushed to death. Look again at the scene. Anakin would have had his upper body crushed and Obi-wan would have had enough damage to be fatal. It is in that moment that Yoda sees what Dooku has done and he is not a ruthless person to let others die like that, which is why he saves them and Dooku knows that he will attempt to save them, which is why he does this.

They're also trained to save lives which is why Yoda chooses to save them, instead of letting them die.

Yes, because he would have let them die unnecessarily in the pursuit of stopping the war. He's just as guilty as Dooku for killing them. Again, if this was never an issue as the ROTS novelization indicates, the two of them would dead and Dooku would have taken out.

No, it means that in situations where the Jedi should not bother to save someone, so that they can capture or kill the bad guy, we never hear anyone say that it was wrong. Obi-wan never says, "You should haven't have come for me Anakin, you should be going after the assassin!". It's, "What kept you?", as in he was waiting for him to catch up. He expected him to come to his aid, not leave him to die. The Council would say that, "Now is not the time for recriminations. Now we must focus on ending this war before it gets worse". They wouldn't say, "You did the right thing in letting them die" or "Because of your inability to sacrifice them, you've endangered millions.

That's not a balance. The balance of a Jedi is to use the Force without emotion and to be compassionate to everyone.

Yoda's argument would be that he chose to save the lives of two Jedi, knowing full well what it could result in and that he and the other Jedi are now focused on trying to stop the war before it continues to spread. And at this stage, the Senate is so messed up that the Jedi would be condemned for any action taken. Whether it's letting them die, letting Dooku go or even going to Geonosis in the first place and starting the war, they're to blame for this. All of it. That was Palpatine's plan. To not only destroy the Jedi, but to taint their legacy.

 

He seemed pretty disapproving in the arena.

"We came to rescue you."
"Good job (!) "

 

He was being sarcastic since they wound up getting captured. Similar to the snark that Leia dished out in the detention center.

 

Which is kind of the point - being to eager to rescue, can have bad consequences (bringing a Senator into a hazardous situation).

In the same way, it's being argued that Yoda's ability to prioritise is poor, like Anakin's - he prioritised rescue, over apprehending a criminal capable of threatening millions.

 

Except the difference is Yoda did what he did with the full knowledge of what he was sacrificing. He didn't recklessly endanger millions; he made a choice not to sacrifice two living souls on the altar of utilitarianism.

Anakin and Padme rushed recklessly into a situation and as a result ended up captured and themselves in need of rescue. Luke does the same thing years later and ends up in the same situation. None of them accomplish what they set out to accomplish--except Yoda. Yoda knows exactly what he's doing when he saves Anakin and Obi-Wan, and he's at peace with it, because he's a being with a heart, not a computer crunching numbers.

 

I'm not talking about the senate asking for an explanation or an argument for what happened on Geonosis, after the fact. I'm talking about a hearing to determine what the Jedi would do in a situation like the one Yoda finds himself in on Geonosis. And if Yoda tells the senate that on principle, millions of Republic citizens would have to pay the price for the sake of two Jedi's lives, I think we can safely conclude that the Senate would declare the Jedi not fit for their actual purpose, the safeguarding of peace throughout the Galaxy. Regardless of how effective the senate is, the Republic would have been shocked to learn that the Jedi have, for a thousand generations, been given a mandate under utterly false pretences. And that it only takes two Jedi to be in danger for their actual stated principle of preventing war to be completely undermined.

 

Except what Yoda set out to accomplish was to stop Dooku from escaping and in that he failed.
Because he was unwilling to make sacrifices.
And yet in ESB, Yoda tells Luke that he should sacrifice Han and Leia if he honors what they have fought for.

Anakin and Obi-Wan have fought to stop Dooku but Yoda does not honor that.

Also, Mace made the choice to sacrifice around 20 people to stop a plausible negative outcome for the Republic.
So he was apparently fine with letting people die for utilitarianism.

@DS

This reasoning can make sense, that Yoda thinks about the prophecy and thus he acts just because it is Anakin.
However this is immediately contradicted by Mace, who is willing to let Anakin die to prevent Dooku using them as hostages with the senate.

So sorry, this reasoning does not work.

They were taken captive and it is idiotic that they were allowed to keep their weapons.
What makes the most amount of sense is that they grab weapons from fallen Jedi.
Also, how do you know that Dooku didn't hear anything?
We don't see the inside of the cave when the ship blows.
So absence of sound and you still have not presented any evidence that Yoda's ship was blown up.
Your argument fails.

Wrong, he started to fight because he was getting more and more angry and his hate for the emperor made him try and kill him.
Same with Vader later, he gets so angry and mad that he attacks.
There is no plan, no him trying to save anyone.
It is pure reaction of anger and hate.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

The Jedi's mandate was not given under false pretenses. Their mandate has been clear that they would save lives whenever they can, regardless of who was in danger and whatever circumstances were at stake. Even when it came to a scenario like this, they would still choose to do their duty to save lives.

I never said it was Yoda's reasoning. I said that when you look at it, there was a greater importance that was to be had here with Anakin being the Chosen One. Regardless of whatever the reason in saving Anakin was, it comes down to the fact that if Yoda hadn't, then Anakin would never fulfilled his destiny. The audience sees the larger picture that the characters cannot see yet. This is why Qui-gon states that despite the dark times to come, there is always hope for the Jedi and the Republic and it comes unexpected ways. And why Yoda says that how a Jedi wins is what is important. To stop a war at the expense of two Jedi was not the way. Luke has to understand that his actions will not save his friends, but other actions will save him.

But see, you cannot provide proof on screen as you've often told me. You're just making an assumption that they've lost their Lightsabers and picked up fallen Lightsabers, which just happens to correspond to the ones that they were using. It would make sense if all three picked up green Lightsabers and continued to have them to the end, since they all had blue earlier. But you cannot say definitively, now, can you.

As does yours about the Lightsabers.

He is encouraged to attack Vader because giving in will make him strong enough to save them.

VADER: "Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong."

He gives in because he feels that he isn't strong enough to protect Leia's identity from him and that Leia isn't strong enough to resist him. Likewise, Luke's reaction to attacking Palpatine is that he feels powerless to help his friends and when Palpatine senses this, he encourages him to give in. Luke reacts because he is anger at the Sith for their actions and his own failure to protect his friends.

 

Yoda didn't need a mandate to do what he did on Geonosis. He chose to fail to do his actual duty though. His duty is to safeguard peace for the entire Republic.

Their role in society is clearly defined. You've just invented this supposed principle of being reactionary to the immediate plight of individuals at the expense of their higher duty. This is the antithesis of their expressed duty to society.

 

This reasoning is even more absurd.
Now you argue that characters can do any manner of stupid and nonsensical things because we, the audience, knows that it will pay off five films from now.

Lucas has said that the films should be seen 1-6 so with that in mind, the audience does not know what Anakin will or will not do.

Also, Yoda is not aware of this and we are talking about his reasons for saving Anakin and Obi-Wan and letting Dooku escape.
Unless your argument is that Yoda not only read the script but he also has seen the OT films and knows what will happen, this can not be used to justify his actions.

And if we use this reasoning then Anakin turning to the dark side and trying to kill Padme are also justified since they are needed for the events in the OT.

And again, since the characters in the film does not know this, it can not be used to explain their actions.
And this is exactly what I mean when I say the writing in the PT is contrived.
The plot needs things to happen and so the characters do them, even it makes no sense based on what they knew at the time or how they are as characters.

Where in TPM did he say this?
If you bring up the EU, again you highlight how badly the PT films stand on their own since they require massive amounts of EU to work.

When did Yoda say that?
And Mace was willing to let 20 Jedi die to prevent Dooku from getting an advantage.

You have already admitted that the lightsaber colors are inconsistent, that the color changes.
So what we have here is sloppy film-making.
The film shows us Dooku ordering the droids to hold their fire, Mace and the other Jedi with him lower their weapons but don't turn them off.
Then we see three Jedi being brought forth and pushed in with the others, they have no visible lightsabers.
If they have any, they are turned off.
What was the intent here?
They are brought forth with guards behind them, clearly indicating that they had been taken captive and unlike the rest of the Jedi, they have no visible lightsabers.
Why do this unless to show that they had been taken captive and now have no weapons?
That they then have weapon with no sign how they got them, again sloppy film-making.

The lightsaber thing is not part of my argument, which is that Padme and the other Jedi are held hostage to force Mace to surrender. He refuses and is willing to let some 20 people die rather give Dooku an advantage.
Yet Yoda is NOT willing to let just two people die to let Dooku get the advantage of escaping.
This does not match.

You however argued that Vader was stupid for not doing more in ESB and yet have no problems with Yoda doing very little in AotC and make up stuff to explain it away.
Since I know it is pointless to ask you to prove your argument I will just take them for what they are, stuff you have made up.

Is it?
Three Jedi allowed themselves to be taken prisoner and used as hostages against Mace.
Mace decided that they will all die rather than be used as bargaining chips, he didn't ask the rest or Padme.

Mace made the choice for them. And initially they came to deal with Dooku, stop the seps getting the droid army and possibly save Obi-Wan.
They had a mission and were willing to risk their lives to accomplish it.
Anakin and Obi-Wan were also willing to risk their lives in trying to stop Dooku.
Because that was their goal, what they fought and suffered for.
Yet Yoda does not honor that and goes against his own principles by letting Dooku escape.

There is no difference, they are helpless in both cases and will die unless outside intervention.
And yet Mace is willing to let many more die for far less reasons.

Yes they are. Three Jedi did surrender and were made to walk in with the rest.

Ex, say that some evil organization steal a nuke and hide in a big city and then makes a ransom demand to the government. "Give us 100 million dollars within 10 hours or we'll detonate the nuke."
Are not the city and the people in the city hostages?
They can move around and have not surrendered so does that make them not hostages?

And the first thing Yoda says after this is about stopping Dooku from escaping.
Well you had the chance ten seconds ago, good job there.

And the same Mace was ok with dying just so that he would not be a hostage, surely he would realize that getting Dooku matters a lot more than his own skin.

And are neither of them capable of doing more than one thing at a time?

No he is given an offer to surrender and willingly join the dark side.
Luke does not accept that offer. Then Vader threatens Leia and now Luke get really mad and looses control and attacks out of rage.
So he does NOT attack because he has taken Vader up on his offer or that he has any hope of saving anyone.
He just reacts in a very primal way, he gets more and more angry until he can not hold it down anymore.

[/QUOTE]

Nope.
Luke not being able to protect Leia is not the issue, it is Vader going after her that pushes his berserk button.
His reaction is primal, instinctive and has no thought or planning behind it.
He get really mad and lashes out.
Same with Palpatine, he goads Luke more and more. Trying to get him angry and mad enough to try and kill him.
And this killing would be solely out of hate and vengeance, not from any hope that Luke can stop what is going on.
And Palpatine makes it very clear what will happen if Luke turns, he will be a slave, like his father.
He can gain NOTHING by turning and will loose everything.

But the anger just builds and builds until he can't keep it under control and so he looses it.
But he regains control when he see the severed mechanical hand Vader has, which he also has.
And he realizes that he will become like his father if he keeps this up.
And he finally manages to let go of his hate and anger and be at peace with what ever happens next.
He won't let Palpatine turn him.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Mace was willing to risk losing a battle to stop Dooku.
Yoda was not willing to allow two incapacitated comrades to be crushed to death.

That's not an inconsistency or a plot hole. It's two different characters making two different decisions in two different scenarios.
Yoda likely learned a lesson about attachments and the greater good, though.

 

No, Mace is willing to sacrifice 20 people, Jedi and non-Jedi to deny Dooku an advantage.
Yoda is not willing to sacrifice 2 people to deny Dooku an advantage.

Yoda says it clearly, stopping Dooku from escaping is vital.
That is why Anakin and Obi-Wan go after him.
And why Yoda shows up later.
They are there to stop Dooku from escaping.

In ESB, Yoda told Luke that if he honors what Han and Leia have fought for he should sacrifice them.
That if he runs off he might be able to save them but destroy what they have fought and suffered for.

Anakin and Obi-Wan were willing to riks their lives to stop Dooku from escaping and yet Yoda chooses to let Dooku get away despite that.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Your focus determines your reality.

Yes, but that's 25 years after the Battle of Geonosis.

 

The reality is that Mace was willing to sacrifice 20 people for the greater good but Yoda was not willing to sacrifice 2 people for the greater good.

[/QUOTE]

People here that defend Yoda'a actions deny that what he did in AotC made him change his mind in any way. Or that he did anything wrong. That what he did was the correct Jedi way. And so was what he said in ESB and what Mace did.

To me, these events do not match.

And the RotS novelization says;

And yet Yoda let Dooku go, despite knowing the cost.

Bye.
The Guarding Dark

 

Yoda came to the hangar where Obi-Wan and Anakin fought Dooku because he sensed they weren't ready to fight him (specifically, Anakin wasn't). The whole mission to Geonosis was to rescue Obi-Wan, which is clearly stated.

The whole idea about a plot hole or stupid screenplay is illogical, but this is the PT so there must be something stupid.

 

Alright. Well, I'm not of that ilk
I've always viewed Yoda's arc throughout the Saga as him learning from the mistakes he makes in the first trilogy and then trying to pass on what he has learned to Luke in the second one.
I mean, he likely knows, as Mace and all the other Jedi do, that the greater good takes precedence over invidual lives, but his attachment to Obi-Wan and Anakin seems to get in the way.

 

At least part of the motive was "stop the Separatists from attacking the Republic and holding it to ransom with their droid armies". If the Senate were shown a transcript of Obi-Wan's report of the Separatist leaders meeting with Dooku, then Dooku's lines like:

"The Republic will concede to any demand we make"

were probably important in the Senate's decision.