PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

What's more, they never actually say that they're going to "rescue Obi-Wan". It's "deal with Dooku" and "help Obi-Wan", which to me seems to imply that they're going to help Obi-Wan deal with Dooku and the other Separatists (and hopefully rescue Obi-Wan).

 

Nope, still wrong.

Mace says that they will deal with Dooku.
And later, Yoda says that they must stop Dooku from escaping.
That is why he is at that hangar, to stop Dooku from getting away as then he will be able to draw more systems to his cause and the war will spread.

So they were there to;
Stop the seps getting their big droid army.
Deal with Dooku.
And maybe rescue Obi-Wan if he is alive.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Yoda needed a mandate to bring the Clone Army there and for the Jedi to act. But to save lives like Obi-wan and Anakin, that's pretty much been the Jedi's mandate from day one. Yes, their duty is to safeguard the Republic which also includes all of its citizens. Even the Jedi themselves.

I didn't invent anything. The facts speak for themselves when you watch the films and the cartoon series. Don't shoot the messenger.

I didn't say that they will know when watching for the first time. That's why there is such a thing called hindsight. They will see when everything is said and done that Yoda's apparent short-sightedness yeilded a greater benefit.

No, my argument is that what seems like a poor choice has a greater significance in the long run.

TCW isn't EU. It highlights the worldview of the Jedi that has been forgotten over the years. That the most direct means of victory isn't always the best path. This is evident in the birth of the twins after Anakin has become Vader. The key to victory over the Sith lies with them.

"Rebels: Shroud Of Darkness".

Right. Mace knows they're not going to win without help. This is how he wins by not surrendering.

There was only one inconsistency in that part of the film and that's expected in a film with 2000 effects shots.

The point is that the three Jedi choose to shut off their Lightsabers as they're being lead into the survivors circle and then ignite them again. That's not sloppy filmmaking that they still have them. In fact, we do not see a close up with the three of them when they first appear. When we see, we only see the upper bodies of Ki-Adi and Plo as they walk behind Mace. Then in the next shot, we see them already armed. Lucas didn't need to show us reaching out for fallen sabers, or just raising their own.

As I pointed out, they are two different situations with two Jedi making choices. Neither one is wrong.

Vader had plenty of time to sabotage the Falcon beyond just a hyperdrive. Yoda did not have time to do so to Dooku's ship.

Where did we see the three Jedi being hostages and used as bargaining chips with Mace or the Republic, I must have missed that one. Were Han and Leia hostages to be used against the Rebel fleet?

I don't see any Jedi raising an objection to being there, much less with Mace when he says that they're not surrendering.

You assume that Yoda is going against his principles.

There is a difference. The Jedi in the arena will fight to the death. The Jedi in the hangar cannot do so.

I wouldn't qualify them as hostages, anymore than in "Die Hard With A Vengeance" with the city of New York.

Yes, because Yoda's first priority when he arrived was rescuing the surviving Jedi. Second priority was stopping Dooku. That's how combat decisions are made.

Giving himself to the dark side is about using it, whether it's to attack an opponent or to fully embrace a worldview, both are relevant in turning. Meaning that he's told that he has to use the dark side in order to win. It isn't about just joining due to an offer.

Luke is angry at not being able to protect her, because he was told by Obi-wan that Leia is capable of being a Jedi and if he won't do what needs to be done, then she will have to. Which Luke isn't certain she is capable of doing. And he is also warned that his feelings for her will be used against him, if he doesn't bury them. So when he cannot hide her existence from him, he becomes angry at what has happened and this is what pushes him to attack. He cannot protect her from him. And so it goes with his friends, because he cannot be out there to help him and so he lets his fear and anger build.

Right, but he also said to Yoda...

MACE: "I will take what Jedi we have left and go to Geonosis and help Obi-Wan."

So it was both.

 

Nowhere is that particular "mandate" ever expressed or even implied. Their expressed duty is to safeguard peace. In fact they often have to tell people that it's not their role to just save people out of compassion if they are on a mission.

You're so preoccupied with denying that there could be any inconsistency with what Jedi claim to be and do and what they actually do that you've invented a principle that contradicts what is explicitly stated in the movies.

By choosing to help Obi-Wan and Anakin Yoda chose to not safeguard peace in the Republic and ensured the deaths of millions of innocents.

You simply cannot refute or dispute that.

 

I'm trying to reconcile this with:

- And sacrifice Han and Leia?!
- If you honor what they fight for, yes.

...but it's hard. A little help?

 

It could be that Yoda simply did not honour what Obi-Wan and Anakin had fought Dooku for (preventing the war and the resultant loss of millions of lives) and so wasn't willing to sacrifice them.

 

- Why are you still here?
- But Master Yoda, you said I should honor-
- "If", I said. Overrated, honor is.

One other possibility, if one doesn't wish to view Yoda's decision as a mistake, is that he wanted to keep Anakin alive just in case he actually was the Chosen One.

 

Could be. Or it could just be that Yoda is a healthily emotional person who reacted in the same way that many or most of us would to immediate peril, in spite of his higher duty as a Jedi. It can be hard to separate emotion from duty. And it's not necessarily always wise to keep them apart.


An interesting thing about the Geonosis duels (well, they're interesting up to the point where you realise that a lot of the stage direction is wildly inconsistent in its spatial continuity and illogical in its character dynamics. And not by design either) is that the Jedi do not position themselves in the optimal place to achieve their objectives. After Anakin's initial hasty assault , Obi-Wan circles around and allows Dooku to stand between him and his escape route. Kenobi doesn't even place himself betweeen Dooku and his fallen padawan (which is at odds withe the Jedi's supposed primary concerned with those that need immediate help).

After Obi Wan is somehow fixed to the spot with flesh wounds to his arm and thigh, and Anakin leaps to block Dooku's coup de grace, Obi Wan summons his saber to Anakin who is suddenly fifteen feet away. Presumably Anakin initially only fought with one saber but the duel was re-edited in a way that made a sudden jump from them standing over Kenobi to standing fifteen feet away when Anakin catches the thrown saber.

For a brief moment near the end of their duel, Anakin does put himself between Dooku and Obi Wan. Only for the Sith lord to force push him into Kenobi's lap. But then when Yoda shows up, he does more or less the same things. He doesn't take a protective stances between Dooku and the two fallen Jedi. Neither does he seriously obstruct Dooku from his escape route. He takes the high ground by leaping on top of the ship but then immediately relinquishes the advantage.

The moment Dooku escapes, Obi-Wan is not longer virtually paralysed, of course.

 

Agreed!

Regarding your other points, the only one that's occurred to me before is the cut when Obi-Wan tosses the lightsaber to Anakin. Very interesting thoughts about (the lack of) protective stances! I wonder why I've never thought about that before.

 

By all production accounts, the events on Geonosis were never really concrete except that it had to end with Dooku getting away. The actual remit for the story up till that point was to show the audience things they'd never seen before mixed with echoes and foreshadowing of familiar things, and giving us "what we've all been waiting for" (said by both Lucas and McCallum) i.e. Yoda in combat. As far as the larger story is concerned, all that was important to the filmmakers was Anakin being disarmed and Dooku getting away. So it's no real wonder that there are inconsistencies thrown up by the action that fills in around these two plot points.

 

True. Still, it's all fairly consistent, given the circumstances. Consistent enough to work for me, anyway

 

To be fair to Obi-Wan, he did get his arm and thigh sliced open by what’s basically a hot plasma blade. That’s gotta hurt like the holy hells, much more than if he were sliced by a regular fencing sword.

 

That's true. I can imagine that it hurts quite a bit. But it seemingly only hurts long enough to pin him helplessly to that one spot on the floor for the exact duration of the rest of the duel(s), by which time Obi-Wan is able to hop back to this feet and even assist Anakin back to his.

 

He still doesn't exactly seem "Good to G.O", though.

 

You're ignoring the context. The danger is that by confronting Vader, Luke will--rather than saving Han and Leia--become an agent of evil himself and plunge the galaxy into further darkness. This almost comes to pass, prevented only by Luke's willingness and ability to commit suicide in order to prevent such a dark future, while Han remains frozen in carbonite and the rest of his friends rescue themselves.

The difference here is that Yoda saw the future and knew that Luke would not be able to rescue his friends since he wasn't ready to face Vader, while Yoda succeeded in rescuing Anakin and Obi-Wan.

The remit for the story was clearly to show the Republic transforming into a warlike Empire in an exciting and visually striking way. This is easy to see because the movie does it very effectively. It also firmly establishes Yoda's status as a "great warrior" (which is in fact a thing many people had been waiting for) in order to set up his downfall in the next movie and his revised philosophy in the original trilogy. Anakin's dangerous arrogance and attachment issues are also highlighted throughout.

So how on Earth could you conclude that no one was concerned about the "larger story"? Did all that just happen by accident?

 

I'm talking about the filmmakers expressed remit, discussed in commentary by McCallum and Lucas, for the story of the third act which was to get everybody in the one place, have lots of action and end with the bad guys getting away. It apparently went through a lot of changes during production in order to deliver something exciting and coherent enough to deliver that. Including a late decision to remove Dooku from the arena etc and have Kenobi and Skywalker confront him there.

Except the people who believed Lucas when said his inspiration for Yoda was to subvert expectations about what makes a person powerful, and how he wanted to show children especially that there were different kinds of heroes and powers than war. The idea that it was a consensus that some day we'd finally get to see Yoda's unmatched brilliance in combat is absurdly revisionist.

But on the other hand, I was prepared to consider it, what if we were shown that Yoda had to get his hands dirty like all other Jedi? Fair enough. Is Yoda still going to uphold all the things he said about "wars not make one great, "never attack" and "if you honour what your friends fight for [you must be willing to sacrifice them for that cause]". The answer has to be no. Yoda turns out to be a reactive human soul just like the rest of us. In the context of his high ideals and his position in galactic society, when push comes to shove he's no less "weak" than any of us.

The next question is, is this inconsistency intentional? For the benefit of a stimulating subtext I would hope that it is. I suspect that in many ways, the Jedi, while having a commendable philosophy and are undoubtedly the good guys, are a critique by Lucas on the dissemination of "let go" hippy attitudes and hypocrisy that he so despised.

The problem I have mainly with the final act of Attack Of The Clones is that there seems to be little consideration of the underlying philosophies that are supposed to define the Jedi and particularly Yoda. To have been prevented from doing what he must and letting Dooku escape is one thing. Not making a serious practical attempt except to engage him in a duel (where Yoda makes the first move) during which Dooku is able to distract him enough to let him run, is a far more troubling inconsistency.

I really don't see how Yoda's actions are symbolic of the Republic becoming an Empire. It seems to show Yoda not becoming anything but, in fact, showing his true colours.

 

As I've said, Luke is rushing off to help his friends when he is filled with fear and is acting recklessly. He is certain that his friends will die and will forego finishing his training, because he thinks that is the right thing to do. What Yoda and Obi-wan caution him is that A) it is not certain that they will die in that moment and B) it is dangerous for him to face Vader, because he is not ready to do so and could fall to the dark side. Luke, being so impatient demands to know if staying means that they would be killed. Yoda says that if he honors them in this, then yes. As we see, Luke doesn't rescue his friends. Lando does. They also wind up having to rescue him. Han, meanwhile, is still alive and well. Luke has gained nothing from fighting Vader, other than learning that he was way unprepared for this and that Vader was his father. Luke then spends almost a year preparing to rescue Han, understanding that patience was necessary and so was additional training until they could free Han.

See, this is where you trip yourself up. First off, Dooku attacks Yoda first with the Force. By the point where they draw their Lightsabers and who engages who at that point, doesn't matter. Dooku has started the fight, thus using the Force to attack. It's the same way when Obi-wan charges at Dooku after he's been blasted by the lightning which he blocks. At that point, the battle has begun and Dooku is the instigator. When Luke draws his saber and attacks Vader, he is the instigator in the carbonite chamber and again on the Death Star. Likewise, as to fighting Dooku, that is trying to prevent him from escaping. It may seem like a futile gesture to duel with Lightsabers, instead of attacking the vessel, but that is irrelevant. The point is that there is more than one way to prevent Dooku from escaping, just as Dooku could have blasted Yoda while he was trying to save Obi-wan and Anakin. Or toss his saber at him, in order to take him off the board. But he doesn't do that either. Just like Vader and Kylo don't destroy the Millennium Falcon, when they have the chance. Or Greedo doesn't remove Han's blaster or force him to keep his hands on the table. The three Jedi could have stopped Dooku without needing to damage his ship in order to stop the war. Or slow it down.

 

So it's ok to attack if you have a convenient excuse. "You tried to use the force on me so I'm going to make the opening attack in a saber duel." A special interpretation of the word "never" if ever there was one. A jedi never uses the force for attack. Nowhere is it said that using the force for attack is fine if someone else if they want you to fight them.

There's no movie that shows Kylo Ren with the opportunity to destroy the Falcon.

They failed with the strategy they chose. So that's pure conjecture.

The Jedi had no credible reason to ignore the opportunity to disable Dooku's ship. They had nothing to possible gain by passing it up. The instances you mention involving the Falcon had a possible strategic gain for Vader.

The total disregard for Dooku's escape ship just happens. Either because all three Jedi are not beyond reproach in their capacity to consistently live up to their sworn mission, values and philosophies.

Or because of an oversight in the writing.

 

Frankly, I never bought into the logic of saving Anakin and Kenobi being equal to "risking millions of lives" because Dooku escaped. Anakin and Kenobi were two of the top Jedi, saving them was very important. Yoda did the right thing. They could have caught Dooku later. That it didn't happen was maybe a plot hole. Obi-Wan tracked down a whole planet and species by himself that supposedly didn't exist. Anakin tracked down a gang of well-hidden murderers in the remote desert, also alone. I'm not buying that ALL Jedi could not have found Dooku sooner or later. And so what if Dooku had NOT escaped Geonosis? Eventually Sidious would have found another way to start the war anyway. That fight in the Geonosis hangar certainly wasn't THE essential turning point of the story. Sidious would have found a way, with or without Dooku!

 

Did Yoda know that, though? I mean, it's a reasonable assumption that the Neimoidians had told them about Sidious after the Battle of Naboo, but can we be sure? Obi-Wan believed that they could end the war then and there if they captured Dooku and the movie never implies that Yoda believed differently.
For all they knew (as far as we can tell), Dooku was the missing Sith Lord! Letting the potential spider in the web go to save two Jedi was incredibly risky.
You're absolutely right that Sidious would've gotten the war started with or without Dooku, but we have no way of knowing whether or not Yoda understood that.

Even if he didn't know about Sidious, though, I can definitely see him intuitively understanding that he'd better leave Dooku alone and save Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Like Qui-Gon, he trusted his instincts.

 

Nobody's saying that Obi Wan and Anakin were not worth saving. It was against the Jedi's stated mission to not allow Dooku to escape, because doing so would have meant the spread of war to thousands of systems. The Jedi's prime directive is to safeguard peace. Not "to safeguard peace, unless..."

After the war had spread? How many innocent lives are acceptable before Dooku is caught.

Yoda's reaction to the threat to his two young Jedi is understandable. It would oridinarily be considered harsh to call him a selfish or greedy person because he momentarily placed their lives at the top of his priorities, at the expense of millions of people who will perish in the war that Dooku is now allowed to spread. Most ordinary people don't have such a responsibility to manage priorities of that nature.

But Yoda isn't an oridinary person. And neither is Anakin. Which is why his presumption that he can have an ordinary relationship with his mother, and then an ordinary relationship with Padme, it's not treated as ordinary. In fact it's expressly prohibited, and defined in the rhetoric provided mainly by Yoda as the road to hell. There's no being a Jedi, selflessly safeguarding peace for the entire Republic, and responding to the way that oridinary human emotions help us viscerally prioritise our actions and our instincts. That's why Jedi need a lifetime of training and discilpine. It's a hard life. Their sacrifice is for the greater good.

 

The Jedi said that the capturing of Dooku would end this war now, but that's not what would've happened. It's not Lucas' mistake in the script, it's about how characters think. Although Obi-Wan was aware who's involved in Dooku's plot, he still thought that cutting the snake's head will kill her body.

It is pointless to point out that by sacrificing two of his Jedi and settling scores with Dooku Yoda would've prevented the deaths of millions because although Dooku escaped from Geonosis, the Republic won (Obi-Wan said so) and the war just began (as Yoda said). That's one of the points of AOTC - it was already too late. The clone army was ready, the Separatist's plot ready to execute. Dooku was alive, yes, and Geonosis, I presume, taken over by the Republic, so if the defeat of the Separatists on such an important world didn't prevent the war, why people think that Dooku's capture would? Because the characters say so? They're not aware of everything and obliged to guide the audience to their actions. They make mistakes.

 

Sure he can. Qui Gon told Padme in PM he could not fight a war for her. That was on a planet scale. The Clone Wars were on a galactic scale. The Jedi were powerless to stop it once it began.

 

The Jedi "warriors" led by Mace Windu were sent to stop and capture Dooku, prevent war, and attempt to rescue their people.

The Clone Army led by Yoda was sent by the Senate.

Now, if Yoda had seen the next movie, he could have gone down into the depths of the temple and brought up all the gold, then broker a side deal with the Trade Federation to buy all the droids; offering them double what Dooku has promised. Then, reprogram the droids to build condominiums for all the clones. And lastly, sell the droids as maidbots to pay off the Kaminoans.

 

No, it means that once a Sith Lord or some other foe launches an attack first, the Jedi can go on the offensive so long as they do not use the Force incorrectly. The battle has already started when Dooku threw the first piece of equipment at Yoda. Just as when Obi-wan saves Luke from Ponda Baba and Dr. Evanzian, even though the duo did not fire first, he drew his Lightsaber and took them down after they drew their blasters.

"The Force Awakens". Especially in the scene where Ben was aboard the Falcon after it was discovered.



He could have destroyed it then, but didn't.

Or because, as I said, there's more than one way to stop Dooku.

Obi-wan only found out about Kamino because Jango used a weapon from there, which was part of the plan, so that he could find the Clone Army. Anakin found the Tusken Raiders because he asked the Jawas where the current camp was. They weren't hiding in the galaxy itself. Dooku had kept on the move, which was why the Jedi had trouble finding him during the war. Every time he did show up somewhere such as Tatooine, Naboo and Oba Diah, he got away because he was a better strategist or because of Jedi compassion. On Tatooine, Anakin went to help Ahsoka. On Naboo, Dooku Force shoved Anakin off the shuttle. On Oba Diah, Dooku destroyed his ship and escaped in his own solar sailor. The only reason he didn't get away at Coruscant was due to the fact that Palpatine wanted the duel to take place there and not somewhere else.