Plot holes and their explanations

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Summers1913, May 15, 2014.

  1. drunken hutt Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2014
    True, but from a filmic point of view, the lack of an explanation was a poor job.

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  2. drunken hutt Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2014
    Well of course he controls the clones; he's the Supreme Chancellor of the government the clones fight for.

    Unfortunately this doesn't help dissipate the plot hole that still remains apparent to this day:
    -why was Sifo-Dyas' motivations never explained in the film, and
    -why was there never a connection established between Sifo-Dyas and Palpatine that would make it absolutely clear the latter was complicit in the creation of the clones (I.e. manipulating Sifo-Dyas or impersonating him)

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  3. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    did you miss the part at the end of a new hope where han is collecting his money and about to leave? luke says we could use you ba bla. he stays and saves the day and during the beginning of empire he's still planning on paying jabba but stuff happens.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, May 23, 2014
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  4. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    sifo-dyas is a red herring meant to distract the jedi and the audience away from the obvious answer.
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  5. drunken hutt Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2014
    Hmm. I never considered Sifo-Dyas as a distraction in general. I think the way how he was only briefly mentioned in AOTC and completely forgotten about throughout ROTS was disappointing. In ROTS there could have been some great revelation by the Jedi in regards to Sifo-Dyas being used as a ploy by the Sith, shortly before being wiped out themselves.

    Alas, Lucas didn't think demystifying that integral part of the overall story as necessary.

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  6. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    correct. initially it was going to be explained later but they dropped that. gl even said something about it on the aotc dvd commentary. it got cut. probably because anakin's fall and order 66 changed in the script.

    "In early drafts of Attack of the Clones, the name of the Jedi who contacted the Kaminoans was Sido-Dyas, pointing to a likely early conceptual connection to Darth Sidious. However, interestingly, "Sifo-Dyas" appears in one place, apparently as a typing mistake (as the D and F letters are located next to each other on a QWERTY keyboard) that Lucas later preferred to the original name.[11] In addition, "Sido-Dyas" was originally only a false identity for Sidious—Obi-Wan Kenobi claimed never to have heard of him, and Mace Windu confirmed that there was no Jedi by that name.[11] His backstory was promised by George Lucas to be revealed in Revenge of the Sith,[12] but instead was explained in the lead-in novel Labyrinth of Evil."

    basically dooku tricks dyas into ordering the clones and then kills him so there won't be any evidence to link to anyone.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, May 23, 2014
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  7. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    The scene where Dooku arrives on Coruscant is meant as a clue to the audience. The Sith were behind everything. Sifo-Dyas was a dead Jedi (according to Obi-Wan), so someone used his name to order the army. Kamino was erased from the archives and only a Jedi could have done it. Jango Fett, the clone template, was hired by someone called Tyranus. That scene at the end reveals that Tyranus is the Sith name of Dooku, an ex-Jedi, the only one interested who could have accessed the archives and know that Sifo-Dyas was death so that his identity could be used.

    P.S: Yes, I know that since then TCW told a different story, probably influenced by the EU.
    Last edited by Alexrd, May 23, 2014
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  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Probably the AOTC novelizations, were the start of it. Obi-Wan thinks Sifo-Dyas died "twelve years ago". Windu and Yoda think that "If the timing is right, he must have placed the order right before he died."

    The EU carried on from there.
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    Yes it does. That was some time later. And it looks like Obi-Wan achieves a serenity in that moment that he hadn't been able to before. That kind of thing can happen when you're on the verge of certain death and need to sink or swim.
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  10. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Exactly.
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  11. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    In-universe, it fits well with Ewan's wry, sardonic Kenobi. Nice reading of the scene.
  12. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah, and he couldn't have done so between ANH and ESB? Yeah, it's a movie etc etc, but considering it's something that turns Han more into a liability with Jabba putting a price on his head and attracting unwanted attention to the Rebels, it isn't really handed well onscreen. At the very least, it's a bigger plot-hole than anything you see in the prequels.
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  13. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    the rebels are constantly being pursued by the empire at that point, that's why they hide out on hoth. they just blew up the death star, it's not a time to call attention to yourself. the empire was combing the galaxy and all known planets in the area. han and luke just left tatooine before the death star fiasco. they aren't going to go back there. it's not a plot hole at all it's called laying low.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, May 25, 2014
  14. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, but because Han doesn't pay off Jabba, they're now lying low from two parties-- the Empire, and the Underworld. Wouldn't it make more sense to pay off Jabba, and remove one of those problems, especially when they're being chased off of other planets by bounty hunters?

    Also-- everybody returns to Tatooine in ROTJ, and the Empire doesn't pursue them at all, even though they know that eventually Luke and company are bound to go there and try and rescue Han (in fact, this is a whole other plot hole on its own-- Jabba's palace would've been the perfect place to set a trap for them).
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  15. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah, this was a missed opportunity. In fact, something very similar to this scenario was in the Revised (?) Rough Draft of ROTJ (July 1981 by GL), where Imperial agents 'kidnap' Luke at a space-port* after Han's rescue.

    *the space-port was on Sicemon, though, not Tatooine, I think
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  16. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Yeah, it's very interesting how the whole Rescuing Han sequence from ROTJ was more integrated in the movie originally (in the early summaries the rescue would happen in the second act of the movie, and in later drafts, the whole sequence would be intercut with Leia on Endor) and slowly became a totally independent segment of the movie, very much like in Raiders.
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  17. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    You have a point there. The 'Raiders' comparison - reminds of Gary Kurtz years later (around TPM's release?) saying that Lucas was influenced by Raiders when he made ROTJ, for good or bad.
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  18. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Although Kurtz was not part of Lucasfilm by that time. And I don't think the "independent prologue" structure has anything to do with what Kurtz was talking about (that Lucas only cared about action and adventure and not about the story)
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  19. Winston_Sith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    star 4
    I always think when Sideous contacted the Kaminoans, there was a glitch in the Hologram feed like at the beginning of TPM.

    Lama Su: "And your name, Master Jedi?"
    Darth Sideous: "Master S-*yph-o*-deous."
    Lama Su: "Good to make your acquaintance, Master Sipho-Dyas."
    Darth Sideous grins at his unexpected fortune.
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  20. drunken hutt Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2014
    How do you know Sideous contacted Kamino at all? Are you saying he was the one who contacted them in the first place rather than Sifo-Dyas

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  21. Ananta Chetan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2013
    star 4
    Why isn't there more discussion on the irony of Jango's dual role of being the template for the clone army while simultaneously a sort of key figure in Dooku's inner circle of Separatist leaders?
  22. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    The Clone Wars implies that the original order was placed by Count Dooku posing as Sifo-Dyas.


    I guess the Jedi just saw him as a bounty hunter working both sides of a galactic conflict. On the whole, that's really the only reasonable conclusion they could have drawn at the time.

    I agree that there maybe should have been a line or two showing the Jedi rationalizing away the connection.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Jun 12, 2014
  23. AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2014
    star 4
    Is there an online resource with copies of the eary draft stories for the OT?
  24. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4

    Yep:

    http://starwarz.com/starkiller/

    All the drafts of SW/ANH are there (except the two-page abandoned 'Journal of the Whills' outline) - the drafts available for the rest are pretty limited. The Brackett draft of ESB is there, and GL's revised rough draft of ROTJ. The PT scripts are basically shooting scripts, so not much different to the finished films at all.
  25. AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2014
    star 4