CT Plot Holes in the CT

Seeing the dark side is more difficult than seeing the light.

Qui-gon was not on Tatooine to free slaves and he only works to free Anakin because he might be the Chosen One. Beyond that, Tatooine is under the control of the Hutts and the Jedi don't have that kind of authority to do a massive freeing of slaves.

No slaves?





What do you think the chain is for? Why is Leia's outfit was called, "Slave Leia"? We also didn't visit Mos Espa in ANH and ROTJ, as well as visit the locales in Mos Eisley in ANH.

 

Sorry, forgot about Oola and Leia.

 

All it takes to sense the darkside is to be calm and at peace.

Jedi feel the force. If they could "see" only the light but felt the force then by deductive reasoning they could determine it was the darkside they were feeling.

It's immaterial because Yoda says otherwise.

Thanks to the PT, Jedi inability to sense things is dependent only on what needs to happen in the plot. This creates a plot hole in the OT.

 

To sense it within themselves. Not externally. A Jedi will know the difference between the good and the bad, when they are calm and at peace. When Luke faces Vader the second time, he senses that he's going to the dark side and stops from going over. But to sense it in others, it is not easy.

I didn't say that they can only see the light. Luke can be seen through the Force because Yoda is meditating and can see the good within Luke. When he's tried to find Darth Sidious, he cannot because the dark side is difficult to see. When he's been around him, he cannot sense the cold and death within him. The fear and the anger. But those who are not hiding, they can be felt.

YODA: "Powerful you have become, Dooku. The dark side, I sense in you."


EZRA: "There's something familiar. I feel cold. I think I know who it is. Back on Lothal, I felt something. Kanan did too. The fear. The anger. The hate. It's the Sith Lord we faced."

But even the Sith cannot always sense the light either. Vader senses Obi-wan is on the Death Star, but doesn't know that he's two feet in front of him. He couldn't sense Obi-wan on Padme's ship. Vader cannot find Luke who is on Tatooine and Vader tries to find him through the Force, to no avail. And then when Luke does arrive, Palpatine cannot sense him either.


VADER: :"My son is with them."

SIDIOUS: "Are you sure?"

VADER: "I have felt him, my Master."

SIDIOUS: "Strange, that I have not."

 

I would say as well with the original SW the intension seemed to be more to react against the overt seriousness of a lot of new wave cinema, granted there is still a good deal of influence there but it doesn't dwell on more somber aspects of the story.

You could argue with Empire and especially Jedi things were actually starting to shift a little, cinema moving in a lighter direction so playing up a similar atmosphere was a bit less interesting for Lucas.

 

The stuff about "sensing within themselves" is completely made up by you to try and discount what Yoda said. It is never expressed in any film and the Dagobah scene shows Luke immediately demonstrating the ability to sense the darkside in the cave.

Overconfidence, arrogance and underestimating Vader's attachment to his son is why Sidious does not sense Luke.

Hiding the darkside is another invention of yours darth-sinister.

 

It's not made up by me. It's made up by Lucas and Kasdan. The point is how a Jedi will know the difference between the good and the bad within themselves. That's the point. It isn't about the dark side cave or sensing Vader.

"He's still weak. He's gotta be strengthened. And Yoda's the one to do it. That's his job. Now, he has to go and explore a cave, because he's in training and this is what Yoda tells him to go. And there's a seriousness to Yoda's face here because he knows what's going to happen because actually he's setting it up, what's going to happen in the cave, because Luke is going to have to face himself. "

--Irvin Kershner, TESB Commentary.

"Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and that he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] suggest that although one can’t see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.

--Star Wars-The Empire Strikes Back: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997.


But go ahead, discount Lucas and Kershner and Kasdan. What do they know about their creation? After all, the death of the artist is so important.

No, it's that his powers are diminishing now.

YODA: "Hard to see, the dark side is."

"It's not that they can't see the dark side coming, it's just that the dark side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the dark side grows."

--George Lucas, Starlog Magazine Interview.

It is also from the films. Palpatine has hidden himself from the Jedi, which is how he can be around them and they not sense the Force within him. Vader, Maul and Tyranus weren't hiding which is why they could be felt. Remember that once Lucas decided that Palpatine was a master of the dark side, before making him a Sith Lord, he had to come up with a reason that the Jedi didn't know it and worked to stop him.

 

How about Luke asking Leia if she had memories of their mother, Leia says she remembers her being sad. Your mother died at child birth, you aren't old enough to have memories of your mom.

 

darth-sinister It's not hard to differentiate between hate, aggression, anger etc and positive emotions. Luke's detection of the cave's strength in the darkside was demonstrated immediately after Yoda told him how.

Lucas created a plot hole with the vague excuse that it was hard to see simply to make it possible for Palpatine to remain incognito while spreading fear, hate etc.

 

Yoda tells us that a Jedi can see the past, the future and the dead. Rey is able to see the past in her vision, when she touches Anakin's Lightsaber.



As well as when she was left on Jakku.



Leia can easily see the same thing with Padme, but interprets them as memories or dreams.

For a Jedi, it is. Mainly because they don't realize how easy it is to fall to the dark side. Notice how Luke doesn't realize he's turning until Palpatine tells him to use his aggressive feelings. His expression changes and he calms himself, shutting down his Lightsaber. Then he fights defensively. But when Vader finally gets the right reaction out of him, Luke doesn't realize that he's turning and will do so once he kills Vader. That is what Luke's question of knowing the difference between the good and the bad is, because the line between them is easily blurred by emotion. It has nothing to do with sensing the cave. It has to do with what happens in the cave and what happens on Bespin and the Death Star II, when Luke fights Vader.

How is it a plot hole? Lucas addressed it in ROTJ, when Obi-wan tells Luke to bury his feelings deep down. Palpatine did that very thing around the Jedi.

 

I think he was aware that there was at least the chance that he was going too far (him sweating and breathing deeply and having a shadow over part of his face seem like visual cues that he is and knows he's in danger and he's hiding in part because he knows that. Plus I think the film especially works if he's compassionate to his father in part because he knows he also has, but wants to overcome, his own dark side).
It's probably also significant that Luke using the Dark Side/anger was necessary for him to physically defeat Vader (and thus save Leia) although a more Jedi response may have been to really be willing to die.

It can do so and yet it also seems important to telling them apart; Yoda's simple claim that at the most important time people simply can tell the sides apart and that Luke reacts in horror to the image and idea that his dark hand have become a lot like Vader's seem like emotional reactions.

 

Luke knew after he snapped out of it. Which is why he shut down his saber and went on the defensive. That part there is a continuation of his realizing how easy it is to fall to the dark side.

It's significant because Luke is doing the same thing his father did against Dooku, all those years ago. Dooku goaded Anakin into using his anger and hate against him and he did. Vader goads Luke into using his anger and hate by threatening to turn Leia. It shows that both men, like any Jedi with an emotional connection, can lose themselves quickly if they don't acknowledge and let go of their darkness and attachment.

It's a wake up call for Luke. It finally hits him what the failure in the cave was all about. He finally understands why his father chose the dark side and what it means to be a Jedi. Yoda's claim is simple, yet not so. It's one thing to hear it, it is another to see and understand it. Once he does, he exhales and shuts down his Lightsaber. He finally lets go of his fear, his anger and his hate. He has given up his attachment in that one moment and has finally become a Jedi. And Palpatine can sense it, which is why goes from gleeful joy to furious anger.

 

But does it complicate the story and its message(s) that with Luke making that mistake it also leads to the consequence that he does succeed and physically defeats Vader? It's a mistake that gives him significant benefit although also large and I guess Lucas would insist larger dangers.

 

Vader's emotional attachment to Luke made him let go of his presumed dependence on the dark side in order to save him. He realised he would be unable to live with the added guilt of allowing his and Padme's legacy to be destroyed.

 

The point is that Luke doesn't take the road to hell, as his father did. In stopping himself from becoming a Sith, he is able to become a Jedi. Vader sees that Luke loves him despite all of his flaws. He loves him in spite of all the evil things that he did. He shows him unconditional love, something that the Jedi encourage. He shows him compassion and it reminds him that he couldn't extend that same thing to Dooku, when he had him beaten.





Vader realizes his failures and in that, he is able to find his redemption. It is a reflection and a commentary on the two Skywalker men.

Leia says to Luke that all she has are images and feelings of her mother. No, it is a theory. But given what we've seen of Rey and Anakin, it isn't that far off the mark.

 

Why couldn't Luke see Padme as Leia did? He was born at the same time as she was and he has the power of the force to see things like she can.

 

Luke says he hates the Empire yet he wants to join the Imperial Academy. Please explain.

 

He wants to be a pilot, and the academy is the only legal way for him to do that, whether he hates the empire or not. He also might want to be with his friends, like Biggs, or just to get away from the farm.

 

^ I don't necessarily see a contradiction. It's established in ANH (and the radio drama) that joining the Imperial Academy is the only means at his disposal to leave Tatooine and go somewhere else.

That doesn't imply he loves it. By his own (exaggerated?) admission in Kenobi's hut he says he "hates" it, but since he is apparently rather interested in fast vehicles (landspeeder, skyhopper) I'd speculate that Imperial bureaucracy on Tatooine has given him a hard time passing the safety inspections.

 

Actually looking at the Biggs deleted scene again it seems they didn't view the Academy as part of the Empire. They plan to learn there but avoid being conscripted. Only issue with that is that Luke is already an ace pilot. If he didn't plan on joining the Imperial Starfleet then why bother with the academy at all?

 

Darth Downunder

I think I see your point. Yet, Luke also refers to Biggs "having hung around the starfleet" which undoubtedly is the Imperial Starfleet. If the Academy was not funded by the Empire, then who else with a sane mind would provide funding? It may look independent, but both Biggs and Luke are aware that (good) students from the Academy can ultimately get drafted into the Imperial Starfleet (aka the Imperial Forces), so the whole institution looks like a talent recruiting platform on behalf of the Galactic Empire.

(apologies, IMDB transcript doesn't feature exact wording)

BIGGS I made some friends at the Academy.
(he whispers)
...when our frigate goes to one of
the central systems, we're going to
jump ship and join the Alliance...

I think it's pretty obvious he's talking about desertion, i.e. Biggs has been using the Academy as a means to get in contact with other Alliance sympathizers and find the way to them.

BIGGS I know it's a long shot, but if I
don't find them I'll do what I can
on my own... It's what we always
talked about. Luke, I'm not going to
wait for the Empire to draft me into
service. The Rebellion is spreading
and I want to be on the right side --
the side I believe in.

Apparently, after you passed your exams you're going to get work in the merchant marine or other institutions "hanging around the starfleet", yet there is always the probability that General Taggi wants the best crews of the aforementioned institutions for his starfleet.

LUKE Well, I'll be at the Academy next
season... after that who knows. I
won't be drafted into the Imperial
Starfleet that's for sure... Take
care of yourself, you'll always be
the best friend I've got.

Luke doesn't know where he might end up after he finished the Academy. But just like Biggs he won't be fighting (and dying) for a system he doesn't believe in, i.e. the Galactic Empire.

 

There's a big difference between being a talented pilot, and having authorization to work as a pilot. IRL, a private pilot can't fly for hire, he has to get a commercial pilot license. I'd guess that going to the academy would get Luke all the official paperwork he needs to be a successful professional pilot, a much more respectable and responsible career than "best bush pilot in the outer rim."

 

On top of that Yoda sensed something about Palpatine in AOTC and Mace said the Dark Side surrounds the Chancellor.

Sensing is one thing but that does not mean someone is going "AHA! Dark Lord of the Sith!"

If Sidious is influencing the Senate then that could mean Palpatine as well.

 

So the impairment of Jedi vision by Palpatine's increasing darkside influence prevents them from sensing its origin but when the Sith lord is at the summit of his rise this shroud is somehow less opaque? That's illogical unless Sidious consciously dropped his guard.

BTW. I suppose since sensing the darkside within oneself is so difficult, how does a Sith know that the darkside is within them? Why would they profess to use something they cannot intuitively recognise?