main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

CT Plot Holes in the CT

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Klingon Padawan, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    No, my point is that the rules that always apply on Earth, in the real world, don't always apply on another world, in the world of fiction. In the world of fiction, there are more often than not, aliens that are basically humans. Or in the real world, there are different rules of law and government across each country. Some are similar, other are different.


    The idea in the GFFA, is that children are not as incompetent. They are tasked with making decisions that adults would make and show an ability to do so, despite their age. According to Padme, she was involved in a program that taught governmental practices and that it gave her the credentials to run for the office of monarch on Naboo. She had won because her campaign had resounded with the people and they trusted her to enact those policies. She had acquitted herself well against her opponent in debates and showed a maturity and grace that was becoming of someone her age. That doesn't make the people of Naboo dumb, just culturally from us. And as she would go on to prove, she was capable of making the hard decisions and freed her people from an invasion force, a task that her opponent wouldn't have been able to have achieve due to their ignorance and unwillingness to take the path that she did. Any doubts that might have been had were quickly swept away. And as to Jar Jar, she had appointed him to be the Gungan Representative in the Senate. A move that was probably welcomed since his clumsiness was getting him into trouble. But clumsiness aside, Jar Jar was instrumental in the liberation of Naboo and the uniting of the Naboo and the Gungans. That makes his appointment acceptable. Not to mention she surrounded herself with advisers who were well suited to the task, like Bibble.

    As to the constitution of Naboo, it isn't like Congress or Parliament. The rules would be different based on what was drafted long ago. Among other things, that the monarchy would last up to two four year terms and not anymore than that, much like the 22nd Amendment which put term limits on presidencies. Lucas went this route to set up the notion of a noble person who gives up their power, for the good of the people, rather than like Palpatine who keeps it for himself and bends the rules to his advantage. Hence the exposition about Padme's political career being a parallel for Palpatine's ascendancy.
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Yeah. What you're saying is that you can selectively ignore or endorse the real world applications in order to support an argument.

    In other words, familiar words don't carry the same meaning in outer space except when they do. Arbitrarily so.
     
  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Yeah. What you're saying is that you can selectively ignore or endorse the real world applications in order to support an argument for the propriety of their use.

    In other words, familiar words don't carry the same meaning in outer space except when they do. Arbitrarily so.
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Earth has elected monarchies, as linked to on Wikipedia. And as pointed out, a constitution is a set of rules and guidelines for running a government. It does not have to be about congress having most of the power and the executive leader only have some power.

    Constitution: a body of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is acknowledged to be governed.

    Likewise, fiction has often relied on bending the rules of norm in establishing the universe. It's not about winning an argument. The fact is that we don't know what alien life could do with their own governmental laws.
     
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    The scant examples of so called elective monarchs, the Pope being one of them, are totally unsuitable for comparison. None of them are elected by populace. Their claims to be democratic but retaining only the title of monarch are disingenuous at best. Like the democracies in North Korea and East Germany.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  6. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Switch the name of Naboo's elected leader to president, and it would still function the same. It's just a title.

    Also, see these, from Wikipedia:
    Originally, the Kings of Sweden were elected by all free men at the Mora Thing. Elective monarchy continued until 1544.

    In Poland, after the death of the last Piast in 1370, Polish kings were initially elected by a small council; gradually, this privilege was granted to all members of the szlachta (Polish nobility).

    The Republic of Venice was ruled from 697 to 1797 by a doge, who normally ruled for life, though a few were forced from office. His powers were never those of an absolute monarch, but he was the Republic's highest official and powerful within restrictions and levels of oversight that varied in different periods. The election process began with the Great Council of more than 2000 Venetian aristocrats and employed an elaborate system designed to prevent one family or alliance from dominating the process. It used smaller nominating groups that were reduced in number by the drawing of lots and required a supermajority for election.

    In the Dutch Republic of the 17th and 18th Century there was the office of the Stadtholder, whose power fell short of those of a monarch, and which was elective.


    Padme's position doesn't sound much different from these, and we never even learn the Naboo voting process.
     
  7. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    After the first crusade captured lots of territory in the middle east, some of the senior European nobility decided to stay and form their own new monarchy. They elected a king.
     
  8. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Would make sense in a pre-industrual, pre-technological era like the faintly tenuous examples you've provided, which are not true democracies simply borrowing the title of "monarch", because those societies didn't know what a true democracy was.

    Naboo, with its obvious obviously post-enlightened, post-industrial and post-technological society would have a true democracy, if we are to accurately apply the political necessity for particular systems of government.

    It's a popular trope with fantasy writers. Benevolent monarchy done "properly" in away that's meant to be appealing to audiences used to true democracy . i.e no politicians. But it's pure fantasy.

    The examples being cited all had kings "elected" by a privileged bunch of people. Knights and other Royals etc. All monarchies begin with decided who should be king. Quite often the privileged ones who realised they'd erred in whose absolute rule they chose to support, and "elected" at a later stage to overthrow them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  9. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    I disagree here. You make the mistake of automatically equating age with wisdom. Padme even in TPM is certainly not a "child" by any means. Her actions in the movies prove that. Wisdom does not necessarily come with age. Even in our world we have young people who are far wiser and more farsighted than some old fool in a position of power. I will give you one real-world example, Severn Cullis-Suzuki, who at age 12 gave a speech in 1992 on environmental issues that greatly impressed the audience:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Cullis-Suzuki
    I'm sure the speech itself is on YouTube if you are interested. If given the choice, I personally would have her, even at that age, in a position of power rather than some of the more corrupt and power-hungry old men we have as leaders. Not giving any names here, but I think we all know they exist, making this world all the less safe for everyone. Why not have someone younger but with a lot of insight and compassion as a leader instead? Would not necessarily be such a bad thing. It always depends on the person of course, not age alone, whether someone is suitable as a leader. In the saga, Padme happened to be such a person. Maybe the Naboo just were smarter and wiser than real-life societies?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Well, Severn has your vote. But as Darth Downunder said, it's society that votes. And no true democratic society has or likely will elect a precocious 14 year old, no matter how intelligent they potentially are.
     
    Sarge and Darth Downunder like this.
  11. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    I equate age with experience, which is important. A 14 year old literally has less than 10 years of being even a person, in the sense of independent rational thought. Probably only 5 years of anything even approaching pre-adult maturity. So with all of 5 years behind her you'd elect her to run your world?? No you wouldn't. It's also why no 14 year olds are ever elected to important positions here. In almost all cases they're not even eligible.
    Learning, rehearsing & delivering a good speech doesn't qualify a kid to run a kindergarten let alone a nation let alone a planet.
    They're fools. The election of a 14 year old monarch & a dullard as a Senate Representative proves that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
    Sarge likes this.
  12. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    That 14 year old came up with the plan that liberated the entire planet.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    She planned for Anakin to inadvertently destroy the droid control ship (their only hope) that her own pilots couldn't manage?

    Are you using the existence of a fictional character to justify the existence of that same character?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  14. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    No, I'm saying that arguments about Padme's abilities as a 14 year old leader seem to be addressed by how competent she is presented.

    She came up with the entire plan, to get the Gungans to draw out the droid army, then siege the hangar and capture the Viceroy. She also personally fought alongside her troops.

    Sure, she relied on Anakin's actions, but it's not like the Rebellion were expecting one of their pilots to destroy the Death Star with the force, or for Ewoks to beat the empire. Neither reflects poorly on the basic plans.

    Besides, her age isn't given in the film, and she appears to be a fine ruler, and was obviously elected, so I don't see what the issue is.
     
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    We weren't arguing where or not Padme's performance was up to scratch. We're discussing the supposed propriety or otherwise of the writing of Naboo and its system of govt/head of state.

    Yes I know that Darthdownunder derided the citizens of Naboo. But we are clearly talking about the logical gap between what happens in Star Wars universe and what we citizens of earth choose to fight for and how we reach those decisions. It is totally alien for those in a supposedly true democracy in this century to fight for a fourteen year old monarch of a different country. It's not so commonplace as being made out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  16. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    What serious mistakes did Padme make while she was queen? I agree that making Jar-Jar a representative was not such a great idea, but I don't find anything wrong with Padme herself being the leader of a planet. Why focus on her age? It's her actions that count. That everything she did ultimately failed was not due to her being too young but because of Sidious' planning. He was just too cunning for all of them. After all even the "wise" Jedi failed to stop him. What could she have done?
    Again, what Anakin did was mainly to blame on the Jedi who were supposed to protect him. It was Qui-Gon who took Anakin to Naboo. Padme had a planet to defend, so you can hardly blame her for not taking care of Anakin. If wisdom comes with age and experience, then how wise was Qui-Gon?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yes Lucas wrote her as a competent adult. She could be 30 years old based on her actions & maturity. If he wanted he could've had a 7 year old character say & do all of the same things. Then you could defend the election of a 7 year old. Doesn't change the fact that willingly electing children to be the head of a planet is patently stupid. If she was a hereditary ruler then Naboo would not seem so ridiculous. They would be stuck with a kid as their Queen, then pleasantly surprised that she turned out to be so competent.
     
    Sarge likes this.
  18. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Here we go again with the age argument. First of all, how do you define "child"/"kid" accurately anyway? Based on what culture? For every culture that defines a 14-year old as child in the real world I could find you one where she would be considered as an adult. So who gets to decide? Whose rules apply? Even today cultures don't agree on when one becomes an adult. So how can you so easily make judgments about a fictional universe? Someone else wrote Padme's exact age is not given. Even if it is, it is all a matter of opinion and cultural background at what age a person becomes mature enough to be an adult and therefore a leader.
    Your nick leads me to assume you are Australian. So my guess is you would naturally base your views and moral values on your own culture, maybe implying that it is the only correct one and ignoring the fact that other societies have different standards. No offense!
    It is what it is, take it or leave it. The SW galaxy is Lucas' creation. And if he says in that universe there is a planet where a teenage girl can become queen then it is so. You accept a tiny (relatively speaking) sphere of metal can detonate a planet hundreds times its size, a mystical and never really defined "energy" field has practically unlimited powers, that an entire planet can be covered with buildings, but you can't accept that one planet has an under 18-year old as elected ruler? Sorry, I find that really weird. You just HAVE to let go of some of your real-world concepts and values if you want to enjoy SW. If you want to nitpick everything apart then there practically wouldn't be anything left in the entire saga that can't be nitpicked to death.
    SW is mainly defined as "fantasy" by its creator, with only SOME elements based on our world. There are parallels in other fantasy stories. One "childlike empress" in the German novel "The Never-Ending Story" comes to mind, and she is around 10 I think. I'm sure there are countless others but I don't read fantasy that much. The new Fremen leader "Muad'Dib" in the first "Dune" novel is a boy of about 15. Qualified enough? Within the story, yes. Then there is his little sister Alia, who leads a military attack at about 5. She later starts a religious cult in her teens. I think there are numerous other examples even within the Dune saga alone. So just take SW for what it is, not the real world but fantasy.
     
  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You make some good points, but in SW the human characters are always implied to be just human. Like us (Force powers excepted). Also, people like the Naboo clearly have a Western earth style of democracy & government. A Prime Minister, elected Representatives etc. So I think it's fair to judge based on our standards. It's impossible to believe that a young teenager is the best choice above every adult on the planet. I would let this slide if it weren't for the fact that they double down in their absurd appointments by making Jar Jar their Galactic Senate Representative. Put these two instances together & the Naboo seem like a joke of a society. They're also just contrivances to serve the plot. Lucas wanted Luke & Leia's mother to be an important ruler, but given the age of Anakin in the story she could only be a teenager at the oldest. So suddenly her planet has teenage rulers. Also, he didn't want her locked into this position on Naboo for the whole trilogy so he makes her an elected queen who only needs to serve a specified term. So then we have the absurdity of the people electing children as their monarch. Jar Jar needs something to do in Ep 2 so we'll make him a Senate Representative! These choices weren't to depict Naboo in a specific way. They were silly lazy choices to serve the plot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  20. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Letting go of, or at least the loosening up of real world concepts isn't a problem.

    I was responding to some assertions that everything is perfectly logical when it's cleverly consistent with real world concepts, except when it isn't because it's not the real world and therefore logical that it should be suitably incongruous and not derivative of things we are familiar with.

    It was having and eating cake time there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  21. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Well, on the surface, yes, their culture does somehow resemble "Western" style Earth societies, in SOME aspects. But it would be boring if Naboo were just a carbon copy of any culture on Earth instead of having some very different characteristics. That there are some things that are radically different is one of the things that interests me in the SW universe.
    So maybe without knowing it Lucas made the right choice? At least artistically a young teenage queen is a fresh sight, something we don't often see in modern movies. Again, Lucas showed he was brave by doing things differently, instead of just sticking to cinema tradition. Take the LOTR saga, which I like very much. But it's not as "daring" as the PT, as all leaders are those "traditional" aging bearded white men. The PT wanted to be different, and that's exactly what I like about it. I don't overthink political, cultural, moral or even logical backgrounds, but sometimes just enjoy seeing a fresh concept presented on the screen. VISUAL over INTELLECTUAL for me in this case.
    All this in the end comes down to personal taste. If you don't like the idea or image of a young Padme on the throne you will always find tons of arguments against it. If you regard it as something new or "avantgarde", meaning not often seen on the screen, then you could find just as many arguments FOR the concept. So I guess in this case we'll just have to agree to disagree.;)
    In short, to me the purely visual imagery in the saga is more important to me than pure strict logic. The OT has that freshness, those never-before seen images of star destroyers, a bar full of aliens, a floating car etc. So does the PT. If a young queen in exotic and visually exciting costumes looks good on the screen and is something unique to the PT then I'd be the first to overlook some real or imaginary logical plot holes. It works for me, doesn't work for you.... OK, that's life.:cool:
    But like I wrote before, I DO agree about Jar-Jar!
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  22. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Who here reads Darths & Droids? Their explanation of 14 year old Queen Amidala is the most reasonable one I've seen yet. It was a plot point concocted in a tabletop RPG by a 6 year old girl.

    http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0021.html
     
    Darth Downunder likes this.
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    So's "Star Wars". ;)


    Her plan was sound despite the fact that the Federation ship was far more armored and had stronger shields. Even Qui-gon said that her plan was a good and he was a fifty year old Jedi Master, who's been in his fair share of scrapes.

    PADME: "We have a plan which should immobilize the Droid Army. We will send what pilots we have to knock out the Droid Control ship orbiting the planet."

    QUI-GON: "A well-conceived plan. However, there's great risk. The weapons on your fighters may not penetrate the shields on the control ship."

    OBI-WAN: "And there's an even bigger danger. If the Viceroy escapes, Your Highness, he will return with another Droid Army."

    PADME: "That is why we must not fail to get to the Viceroy. Everything depends on it."

    She just winds up being fortunate that Anakin directed his N-1 inside through the rayshields, which allowed him to do what he did.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    He just wanted to "mirror" the situation with Leia. She was a young Princess, her mother was a young Queen. Both featured kooky hairdos & bad on & off again British accents. I don't think it was particularly brave or fresh. Like you said though, agree to disagree.
     
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Getting the viceroy meant nothing while the Droid army was still wasting the Gungans with no hope of the Jedi getting involved in the battle.

    Why would the viceroy escape? They already know that they can't defeat the droid army he already has there and it's only a faint hope that they might bring down the control ship.

    The moment the control ship is gone, gunray has no means of escape anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018