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CT Plot Holes in the CT

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Klingon Padawan, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Cough...this is still an Original Trilogy plot hole thread, right? [face_whistling]
     
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  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Well that "plan" had quite a lot of holes in it and things that she had no knowledge of.

    1) The blockade. As far as she knew, it was still there. So how did she plan to deal with that?
    2) That the Gungan army would still be around and not captured or defeated.
    3) That the Naboo fighters would still be there in the palace that the TF controlled.

    When she decided to leave, did she know that the two Jedi would come with her?
    The film doesn't imply that.

    In short, I don't view this as much competence on her part, it is just a lot of contrivance and things work out because the TF are kind enough to remove the blockade and leave those fighters alone.

    As for your earlier comment that Padme functions like a President.
    That is mostly true and so she could have been called just that, President Amidala.
    But would that have gone down better?

    I think that in the US, people might have had more of an issue with this as there you have elected Presidents.
    But none have been anywhere near as young as 14.
    And child Monarchs are known in history, child Presidents not so much.
    So it might have been seen as more odd with her as President instead of Queen.
    Plus I think Lucas wanted the the "romance" that comes from royalty and not have her sound so much like a politician.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  3. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Except that Leia didn't come up with a plan of attack on the Death Star that was equivalent.

    Compared to anything we've seen or are likely to see in SW anytime soon it's totally brave.
     
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  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Padme's plan was crap. Capture the Viceroy & the TF will be "confused"! Please, they still would've had the entire planet at gunpoint with an army of droids. The palace surrounded by that army & the planet blockaded. They could execute citizens one by one until Gunray was released. Padme admitted they had no hope of defeating the droid army or knocking out the droid control ship. They were diversions. It only worked out bcs lil' Anie accidentally took out the DCS. Which was not part of her plan. So it was the worst plan imaginable, despite Lucas via Qui-Gon calling the plan he (Lucas) came up with "well conceived". No, it was terrible. Almost as if it was conceived by a 14 year old.

    Leia on the other hand made the brave & calculated decision to still go to Yavin even though she knew the Falcon was being tracked. She knew that the DS had begun destroying planets like her own. It had to be destroyed & the only hope was to lure Tarkin to their base so they could risk their very existence in attacking it. Hoping that the plans revealed a weakness. She knew of Tarkin's arrogance & his desire to use the DS to eliminate the Alliance. It was an all or nothing gamble based on hope, but it was logical, it made sense given the enormous stakes, & it paid off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Exactly. Are we finally back on-topic? O:)
     
  6. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    There was nothing logical about Leia's decision. You jeopardize the entire Rebel cause by leading them to the very base that you let your home-world be destroyed merely hours ago to protect. Leia didn't even know if a weakness could be found to exploit, which makes her "plan" even more absurd. They should have disabled the tracking device, or switched ships and then gone to Yavin and that way if a weakness could not be found the Rebel Alliance isn't put in mortal danger. It made for great drama, but it was completely senseless.
     
  7. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I shamefully admit that it took me 40 years to understand which IMHO is a sound strategic decision. The Alliance had to destroy the Death Star ASAP before it would have started to destroy planets providing support to the Alliance. Theoretically Leia could have jumped ship (assuming Solo would have been okay with that) and have the Death Star plans analyzed first to find a weakness.

    They would have found a weakness but what next? Send the Death Star an invitation and ask Tarkin to meet somewhere in space to have a battle? That thing had a hyperdrive and after destroying one planet it would have jumped to the next without the Rebel fighters ever being able to catch up with the Death Star in order to destroy it.

    So Leia had to use Yavin IV as a bait to be able to determine the location where the Alliance fighters had a chance to engage and destroy it. Leia only had the option that the Alliance would die because all supporters would have withdrawn funding once they'd become aware of the Death Star's killing spree or that the Alliance would die because the Death Star destroyed Yavin IV.

    I think she did the right and logical decision given the circumstances.
     
  8. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Allowing the death star to obliterate other systems suspected of collaborating (or not) while Leia and the Alliance keeps a low profile would have caused support for the rebellion to evaporate quite quickly.

    There's no indication that shaking off the homing beacon or switching transports would be as straightforward as is being made out. Or even desirable at that juncture. Not while the DS was free to terrorise the galaxy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  9. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    The Death Star randomly destroying planets isn't sound governing at all and by doing so I think it would ultimately bolster the Rebellion's cause by making the galaxy far more sympathetic to it. I definitely do not agree that time was of the essence. They needed one demonstration to show what they were capable of but if they were to traverse the galaxy and blow up planet after planet, eventually you have no one left to rule over. Anyway, I don't think a space station the size of a small moon would be difficult to find, especially if your theory is correct and they're leaving a giant trail of obliterated planets. No, what Leia did was incredibly illogical and unnecessary. Their being tracked should've come as a surprise, because it just makes Leia and the rest of them look foolish.
     
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    @Mindless Monster Good governance became irrelevant the moment the Senate was dissolved, which was the direct result of the DS's first successful test.

    Dispensing with governance was the express purpose of the construction of the Death Star.

    There is no suggestion that the Death Star would be deployed "randomly" though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  11. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    But mere sympathies would not have helped the Alliance which needed funding and more personnel. The essential part of the Tarkin Doctrine was that no star system would henceforth dare to oppose the Emperor, including doing so by supporting the Alliance.

    According to an earlier draft and Motti the idea was only to blow up planets suspected to support the Alliance. Quite possible that blowing up Alderaan was all that was needed, but I doubt the Death Star would just have stayed in one location to present itself as a sitting duck, waiting for an attack by the Alliance or others. More like a nuclear submarine you wouldn't know where to find it, yet it could strike at any moment in time.

    In a galaxy with thousand if not millions of systems, planets and moons? It would have been like finding a needle in a haystack. And there was no guarantee that the Death Star would have moved from Planet A to Planet B and thus create a pattern so someone might know where it would be striking next.

    With such considerations in mind, Leia took a big risk allowing the Death Star to track them, but at least they would know where to engage and attempt to destroy the Death Star - before it would get another opportunity to destroy an inhabited planet.
     
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  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Discovering the location of a Death Star is not easy. It costs a lot of lives.

    And that one wasn't even operational.

    Ask the Bothans.
     
  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Completely wrong. You're failing to take into account the gravity & urgency of the situation. The Death Star radically changed the whole situation in the galaxy. If it's not destroyed the Rebellion is done. The galaxy is done. The Empire showed that they can now destroy an entire planet by pushing a button. Over & over again as many times as they like. It can't be overstated how momentous the Alderaan incident was, not just in the Civil War but in the history of the galaxy. Yet the Rebels had managed to steal the plans to this station. We now know that they were told there was a weakness deliberately built into it. Either way, taking out the DS was now all that matters. If Leia disabled the tracking on the Falcon & got safely back to her base, what kind of opportunity would they get? Even if they discovered a weakness they'd have to go looking for the DS. For all they know it could be surrounded by a fleet of Star Destroyers. What Leia saw in Tarkin was his arrogance & hubris in desperately wanting to make a statement for himself. For his own glory. He wanted to use the DS to destroy the Alliance & become the hero of the Empire. So she took the massive risk of luring him & the DS to their base. Where it would be within striking distance for them. In their system. She banked on him wanting all of that glory for himself, ie not bringing a fleet with him. This was their one & only hope. If the DS had no weakness & they got wiped out, so what? No weakness means the Rebellion is useless anyway & the galaxy is screwed. Also, how can she place their lives ahead of the next planet to be destroyed like Alderaan? Where hundreds of millions died? Time was crucial & the chance had to be taken now to save lives. So it was a risky but calculated gamble, built partly on hope but also strategy & knowing the nature & inherent weakness of her enemy. I think it's clearly the best strategic gambit in the Saga.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I just want to say that I understand @Mindless Monster and other participants who felt that it was somewhat odd, that Leia was willing to sacrifice her home planet Alderaan for the sake of keeping the Alliance base on Yavin IV a secret, yet later allows the Death Star to track them to that base. Part of that may be due to the fact that Brian Daley (unfortunately) didn't think of the explanation @Darth Downunder and myself elaborated upon for his ANH radio drama (here, too, it's just "we got to stop the station before it destroys other inhabited planets"), and apparently same goes to John Knoll and the people involved in the making of Rogue One as they apparently felt that Leia's "hope" should somewhat have more of a substance to rationalize her actions.

    But I think the decisive clue was already in the film and speaking for myself I freely admit that for decades I didn't see the wood for the trees.

    Just as they all run for the Falcon it's the first time since the Tantive IV that Leia actually sees Artoo (although she hardly notices him but seems rather focused on Vader and General Kenobi), her custodian of the Death Star plans, again. We don't see her interacting with Artoo as she first comforts Luke, then Solo interrupts, Leia takes his seat in the cockpit, they get rid of the TIE fighters and then (off-screen) make a hyperspace jump that creates a distance between them and the Death Star (and its re-activated tractor beam?).

    Next we see the Falcon cockpit scene, but the look outside suggests they merely stand still where they just jumped to (to let the hyperdrive recharge and/or to evaluate how long it'll take the Death Star to show up on the back scanners, too, or else). It's here that Leia says:

    "At least the information in Artoo is still intact."

    How would she know? It follows that she must have interacted with Artoo (off-screen) to verify that's still the case. Either she had the opportunity to study the Death Star plans on the Tantive IV or because she asked Artoo, but apparently she is well aware that once the Death Star has destroyed another planet, it can jump anywhere and into hyperspace before any Alliance fighters can arrive at the 'crime scene' in an attempt to engage and destroy it.

    I don't think she just kept Solo's seat in the Falcon cockpit warm until he arrived, she probably asked Chewie to help her with some star charts to calculate the time it would take the Alliance to a) learn about the destruction of a planet (e.g. Bestine, Chandrila etc.) and b) to send its fighters there while the Death Star was still in the vicinity of the planet it just destroyed. I think that's the moment she realized that the Alliance fighters would never be able to catch up with the Death Star - and then decided that the only way to ever encounter the Death Star was to lure it to Yavin IV.

    P.S.
    Disregard my comment in post # 736, perhaps the Death Star would have moved from A(lderaan) to B(estine) to C(handrila). :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    She didn't know that the droids were safe, after a fashion, when she refused to divulge the location of the rebel base. She also miscalculated Tarkin's capacity for cruelty. She thought that, at worst, she'd be the one to die. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

    In the wake of her experience though, it becomes clear that the Death Star must be destroyed at the earliest possible opportunity.
     
  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    That would be a nonsensical objection. Leia co-operated with Tarkin & named the Rebel base location of Dantooine. She lied but he didn't know that at the time, yet he still destroyed Alderaan. If she named Yavin the exact same thing would've happened. So how did she "sacrifice" Alderaan??
     
  17. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    The moment she lied to Tarkin giving him the false Rebel base, she must have been aware that once he'd find out, he'd destroy Alderaan without a shred of hesitation (so she was willing to sacrifice Alderaan for the sake of the Alliance).

    The only thing she didn't know, then, was that he'd order the destruction of Alderaan anyway. So all she could have ever hoped to accomplish was to buy a few Alderaanians some time to evacuate the planet.
     
  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    No. That's just a shot in the dark. In fact she clearly believes he's bluffing in order to get the rebel base's location. She does not anticipate him being so arbitrarily vindictive at all. She is flabbergasted that he is going to blow up Tatooine even though he already knows it isn't the Rebel base.
     
  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    No, she was stalling. It’s all she could do. She chose a very remote world so that Tarkin would take the DS all the way to Dantooine to destroy it, as he told her he would. In destroying that planet, with a bit of luck Tarkin may even think he was destroying the current Rebel base. She also hoped that the plans had already found their way back to the Alliance. That any time now the Rebels might attack & destroy the station. It was a far-fetched hope but it was the only play she could make. Then Luke & Han showed up with the plans.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    One other factor that might be relevant.

    Tarkin had said that she would be executed and that he signed the order himself.
    So maybe Leia hoped that Tarkin would fall for her lie, be satisfied that he broke her and go ahead with the execution.
    If he blew up Dantooine later or found out that the rebel base wasn't there, if she was dead then there would be little point in destroying Alderaan.

    And she was playing for time.

    And it is possible that she thought that the plans might already be on Alderaan.
    She had left a message with R2 to get Obi-Wan to go there.
    And some time had passed.
    And this could make her terror at Alderaan getting destroyed even worse, if the plans are there, now the rebellion is lost.

    Or if the plans are not there, then if Obi-Wan arrives later, there is no planet and he won't know where to go.
    Unless R2 knows the location of the rebel base.
    Which is possible since we did see him there in R1.
    On the other hand, if either he or C3PO fell into the hands of the Empire and they searched their memory banks, having the location of the rebel base there could be a risk.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  21. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Good points. The main thing is, Leia set in motion a plan for R2 to get the DS schematics to the Alliance so that hopefully a weakness could be found & they can destroy the station. Once Leia was captured she was out of that plan. She knew she'd be imprisoned forever or executed. She would not have considered that someone could break into the DS & bust her out. So the crucial thing was giving Kenobi, her father, & the Alliance as much time as possible to complete that most crucial mission. That was why naming Dantooine was such a good idea. Tarkin said if she named the Rebel base location he'd destroy it using the DS. So she thought it was the best way of stalling to give the mission more time. It made perfect sense. What else could she do? If she named Yavin the DS would arrive there & ambush the Rebels without warning. Also the plans may not have arrived there yet, or they may not have discovered the weakness yet. The Dantooine diversion was literally her best & only good option. After Tarkin's betrayal she would also know that Alderaan's destruction, though tragic did not necessarily derail the main plan. If Bail had already left for Yavin with the plans or (more likely) had transmitted instructions to the Alliance RE the weakness. She'd also hope that Tarkin may still waste time in taking the DS to Dantooine.

    The whole Leia-Tarkin dynamic presents like a very interesting game of Chess. Most of it is left as subtext in the movie, but it's great the more you think about it. In Chess terms Leia deliberately exposed her king. Tarkin went charging at it to checkmate her, but ignored her pawns which defeated him first.
     
  22. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I concur that she was stalling, and you are right that she may have had the far-fetched hope that she'd be able to stall Tarkin long enough for Alliance fighters to arrive and attack, assuming the Death Star plans had been analyzed and revealed a weakness. The Death Star was in the vicinity of Alderaan and certainly its sighting had been reported, from Leia's point of view a rare opportunity had presented itself.

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and I see that my (bold) claim that she would have rather sacrificed Alderaan than Yavin IV during these pivotal moments (IMHO one of the best Star Wars scenes ever, if not also in motion picture history) requires further elaboration.

    When Leia first meets Tarkin in the film, we get the impression they are familiar with one another (i.e. have met before). But I'm certain that Leia - a main operative of Alliance intelligence according to the 1977 Lucas Notes - further had access to the Alliance file on Grand Moff Tarkin, including his psychological profile. From what we can learn about the character of Tarkin in ANH, this is the chronology of his personal priorities:
    1. personal pride, arrogance and hubris
    2. a sadistic nature
    3. to ensure Imperial law and order is upheld
    It's his pride blinding him which makes him do his first mistake. Eager to prove Vader wrong (and mock him) he's satisfied with Leia's Dantooine reply, his sadistic nature takes over instantly to make Leia witness the destruction of Alderaan. From a strategic point of view he's plain stupid, as he has his leverage (Alderaan) destroyed, before verifying that Leia told him the truth!

    When he learns that Leia lied to him, he's the one standing there with egg on his face (and probably visualizing in his mind the big grin behind Vader's mask) and wants her executed immediately. The sadist in him that would have liked Leia to also witness the destruction of Yavin IV takes a backseat in this moment (and I'd give real money to know how Vader persuaded him to postpone Leia's execution - that would have been Tarkin's second mistake - because according to the radio drama Vader wanted to retrieve the Death Star plans and reveal to Leia that these never made it to the Alliance in yet another attempt to break her spirit and resistance).

    Leia had severely hurt Tarkin's pride with her Dantooine lie and from his reaction I'd say it's obvious that the would have instantly ordered the destruction of Alderaan (had it not been destroyed earlier), so all he could still do was to execute Leia instead.

    The moment she lied to him, she must have been aware (assuming Tarkin's offer to choose was earnest) that he could or would punish Alderaan in retaliation for her lie, hence my claim.

    Yet there is another element which I think explains her willingness to rather (reluctantly, of course) sacrifice Alderaan than Yavin IV. Leia isn't stupid and I think she wasn't really that naive to trust Tarkin's offer wholeheartedly. She knew that Alderaan was the main gatherer of information for the Alliance and the Empire suspected as much. How much the Empire knew or would eventually learn, she couldn't determine, but even she probably understood that the Death Star hadn't merely been constructed for the sole purpose to just destroy the Alliance's base of military operations. Sooner or later the Death Star would have destroyed Alderaan anyway to make an example.

    Given her choice to postpone the destruction of her home planet by disclosing the location of the Alliance's hidden base (and contributing to the inevitable demise of the Alliance) she made the hard choice to sacrifice the 'brain' (Alderaan) to save the fighting 'body' (Yavin IV).
     
  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Why?

    I'm sure she didn't assume that Alderann would live happily ever after once she gave up Dantouine But what does the movie tell us about Leia and about Tarkin that means that she must give Tarkin a correct answer there and then in order to ensure Alderann is not threatened thereafter, or not give an answer at all and call Tarkin's bluff.

    Her response to his command to proceed with the test even after she has co-operated is one of utter astonishment and incredulity . This indicates that she was not aware that Tarkin would vindictively destroy her home planet, never mind do it in such an arbitrarily sadistic manner. She mocked his supposed courage to order her execution and therefore take responsibility for her death. Tarkin clearly does not have a reputation for getting his hands dirty like this.

    He implores her to give him a legitimate military target right. Destroying Alderann right there and then before checking on Dantouine is totally irrational. Tarkin has nothing of Leia's to threaten the moment he did that. He's just squandered his leverage and probably his only hope of getting the info he wants from her. So it makes no sense There is no indication that Leia has the measure of Tarkin's capacity for wanton destruction and cruelty.


    Not that it matters. Because if she suspected that Alderann might come into Tarkin's sights again then she will at least have bought the Alliance and her people some time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  24. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    That's all correct, but still she thought they had a deal, according to which she'd disclose the location of the hidden Rebel base or witness the destruction of Alderaan.

    Since she didn't reveal the true location of the Rebel hidden base, she knew that the moment Tarkin would find out that Dantooine was a lie, he'd probably destroy Alderaan, according to the terms of their 'deal'.

    VADER I told you she would never consciously
    betray the Rebellion
    .
     
  25. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Not if the Rebels destroyed the station first. Not if Tarkin destroyed Dantooine & thought he destroyed the Alliance. In no way shape or form did she sacrifice Alderaan. She was helpless in protecting it. The best she could do was buy as much time as possible to hopefully allow the Alliance to get the plans & use them. In any case Alderaan’s survival is not as important as the DS’s destruction. The DS could destroy 100 worlds like Alderaan if it’s not dealt with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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