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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Plot Holes In The ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by zackm, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    a 'whataboutism" is a strawman. Americans do it anytime someone points out how poison their culture is.


    You're intentionally disregarding the context of my post. There is no way to have a debate if you're gonna do stuff like this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  2. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2015
    has anyone access to the the digital release? So they can pause and "rewind" when needed and we settle this once and for all: Rey's timeline vs Resistance chase timeline :)
     
  3. zackm

    zackm Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    No.
    A whataboutism is when you try to discredit someones position on one topic by pointing to a seemingly hypocritical position on some other topic.
    A straw man is when you misrepresent someones position with something that is easily defeated.

    A non sequitur is when you randomly insert a statement that has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
     
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  4. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    You're intentionally disregarding the context of my post. There is no way to have a debate
    I already did that before the official release. I subjected myself to a film I had no intentions of ever stomaching again in order to find out if I was mistaken. I posted time stamps regarding when deadlines were set and events that prove rey was on achtoo for over 24 hours after the 18 hour deadline was put forth.


    A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

    Bringing up the OT as a means of explaining away shortcomings in the ST's story, is a strawman. Its also a "whataboutism".
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That's their business. I didn't engage in any whataboutism.
    What stuff? You call my demonstration of precedent for a similarly legitimate character and plot development a strawman by introducing the irrelevancy of the Emperor's plot to trap the Alliance fleet by counter-intelligence as of I am about to produce it as an argument. Which IS a strawman.

    There's no debate about selective Jedi precognition and telepathy in these situations. It's lore. Like it or not.
     
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  6. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    I don't know if you're pretending to not understand context within writing as well as film scenes, but this is becoming incredibly tedious. I'll agree to disagree.
     
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  7. zackm

    zackm Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Also, please note that use of a whataboutism is not necessarily bad. It can be used effectively if the charges of hypocrisy are sufficiently valid.
    The use of a straw man, however, is always bad.
     
  8. PymParticles

    PymParticles Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2014
    I’m not exactly sure what the toxicity of American culture has to do with plot holes in The Last Jedi. Knock off the antagonism.
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That's right but I'm not charging anyone with hypocrisy.
     
  10. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Weren't you implying that I use a double standard for the OT and TLJ?
     
  11. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    This isn't a thread to discuss rhetorical devices.
     
  12. zackm

    zackm Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Ugh...I know we've had our differences, but I'm legitimately trying to be helpful here.

    They're not the same thing. A straw man is specifically used as a weaker stand-in position for your opponent's real position.

    Sorry...off topic. I'll stop.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
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  13. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    I wasn't antagonizing anyone. I gave that as an example of the first thing that came to mind in my experience with people using "whataboutisms".

    Since its clear where things are headed here. I'm done posting on this thread.
     
  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    No. The precedents for precognition were not previously brought up. I only invoked them as a possible oversight because of that. I never assumed or implied that different standards were being applied. Just proposed that they are relevant and shouldn't be overlooked.
     
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  15. zackm

    zackm Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 22, 2015
    That's fair.
     
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  16. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013

    So when Finn and Rose are told about the Master Code breaker the following scene is Rey waking up and seeing Kylo for the first time.

    Rey then starts her training with Luke. (this would be the start of the last day on the Island)
    Rey finds out that Luke has cut himself off from the force then Rose and Finn leaving the ship and we get our first time stamp 18 hours

    Next scene Rey is outside it's raining it's cloudy so hard to say what time it is. Probably mid to late day.

    Cut to Rose and Finn on Canto they start searching followed by Rey practicing with her lightsaber. Looks like late afternoon. It has stopped raining and the rocks are not wet.

    This is where Blastaar believes it's a new day because the rocks aren't wet.

    Rey continues to train till sundown.

    Finn and Rose get captured and in the jail cell they say "6 hours left"

    So the question is could it have rained and cleared up in less then 12 hours?

    Once Finn and Rose leave, Rey has another vision with Kylo at night while . It then cuts to Rey talking to Kylo about the cave, she confronts Luke and then leaves all while it's darker and raining.


    edit: I should also add at this point the rain stops and Luke goes to burn the Tree. So unless that's a third new day the Island dries up pretty quickly.
    Rey gets the FO ship before Finn and Rose do.
    Then Finn and Rose arrive at the FO ship

    I would say the timeline matches up fine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  17. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2015
    thanks! This seems indeed as i recall things happening. The timelines match...the dry/wet stuff is just nipticking IMO since a lot of it was shot on location and you cant wait for a real rain to come and go so you have your wet island (rain scenes were probably shot at the studio).

    No offence @Blastaar but i re-read your old posts and Vicarious Fan's reply sounds more convincing (especially since it fits with my own memory of how things are happening).

    I'll get the Blue-Ray when it's out in april in my country and then i'll be able to fact-check it myself but as far as im concerned i think we have the answer about the timeline.
     
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The climate on Ahch-To and the micro-climate for Luke's island - they never bothered explaining how it compares with the many different examples that very audience member is familiar with, wherever they live on this planet, meaning all sorts of basic assumptions can be made about the continuity or otherwise of the conditions shown during the story - I guess that counts as a plot hole, if that's what you want to do.

    I hear that it rains almost every day on the Hawaiian islands. Harder than it does regularly in, say Seattle. Yet Hawaiians would probably tell you that it is not a sodden moss covered rock all day every day.
     
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  19. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    I would also like to mention that the fact that we see footage from Rey in the island in parallel to Finn/Rose, does not necessarily means that they are happening in real time in relation to each other. So this opens up even more room for the timeline.
     
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  20. zackm

    zackm Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 22, 2015
    No reason to even entertain these possibilities though, since we already know the timeline works.
     
  21. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Yup.

    Rain can dry quickly shocker.

    I can't believe this is an actual argument being made.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  22. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    It's star wars so yeah I can believe it's being made. I'm surprised no one has brought up the shoes they are wearing and how Mandolarian rubber makes you jump 1 inch higher
     
  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Qui Gon appearing in a banner for the sequel trilogy is a plot hole.(for the moment)

    Just saying.[face_shame_on_you]

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  24. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Maybe it was a callback to AOTC when Padme somehow knew Dooku was going to a hangar after falling out of the ship.
     
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  25. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Don't question the new supreme leader. He's just that good.
     
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