ST Plot Holes In The ST

I think this thread has demonstrated that:

A) There are no actual plot holes in TLJ
B) There are plenty of questionable plot and character decisions in TLJ

Different things.

 

Ummmm I agree?

I'm staying it's no less plot hole than 'it was the Force' explaining things. They are in universe devices which work outside of our logic.

 

Well no. That's completely disingenuous. If the person controlling something dies, they are, by default, no longer controlling it. For an illusion to exist after Luke's death does not make any sense in any way. To say "Well the Force can do all sorts of awesome things!" is a very flippant way of explaining away clear flaws.

 

He retains his consciousness in an energy field that is everywhere. How do you know it can't work? It's not real. That's like saying Obi-Wan can't appear as a Force Ghost.

 

The existence of sound in space is a given. It’s part of in-universe physics.

It’s akin to saying that magic is a plot hole in Harry Potter, that the impossibility of time travel is a plot hole in Terminator and the fact that London looks a lot like Hawaii in Lost is a plot hole.

As someone said a few pages ago, a plot hole is a very specific thing. These aren’t it.

In fact, the existence of sound in space in Star Wars helps us understand it; from the start we are told “this takes place in somewhere other than simply ‘space’”

 

The anything is possible simply because there are things that are fantastical is a lousy argument. It is just pretending nuance, degrees and taking the time to ground the fantasy are totally unnecessary.

Maybe Snoke is Palpatine's clone with essence transfer? Why not? That theory doesn't suck now. Anything is possible.

It sucks because it takes away the drama of death. It has to do with storytelling.

 

So Obi Wan shouldn't have appeared as a ghost ?

 

I typed up a response and the forum had an error and didn't save the draft, so it lost it completely.

In short, Qui Gon took 10 years to yell "Anakin No" and then had trouble continuing. OB1 was the first to manifest beyond that.

We saw stages of force ghostdom. And even then, OB1 had dialogue that he couldn't be there for Luke on Bespin, making it clear this wasn't something he could do willy nilly. So there's dialogue and a progression of force afterlife made clear in the movies.

I'd type more, but this is the TLJ thread and the "look over there" (only to find out over there has support) is getting off track of the topic.

 

Lucas wanted to keep Kenobi alive, but realized it would do the actor not much good standing around and doing little to nothing in Yavin IV's war room. IIRC it's still not entirely clear whether that was George's or Marcia's idea.

From a storytelling perspective it would not have made a difference whether he stayed alive (to tell Luke to use the Force) or had become a Force Ghost.

 

I think had he survived, the impact would have been on ESB. The story would have been vastly different. With 9, the story needs are somewhat different. I think Luke can (and should) return to offers guidance to Rey and a challenge to Kylo. I really hope they can find something active for him to do as well - it's certainly possible.

 

Re: Dice

Luke tells Kylo and he and his father will haunt him.

Luke was just being a bada$$ by doing to the trick w the dice.

Does it make much sense that the dice would be there and Kylo would find it? Maybe, maybe not. But in *my* head cannon, Luke made them appear there so he can mess with Kylo...the haunting begins

 

Will we see Kylo getting pantsed in Ep9 by Force Ghost Luke? Will it bring Hux out of denial? Will Rey be able to 2Rey into an infinite number of Reys (the mirrors make sense now).

But the most important question. Will JJ troll RJ?

 

Ok cool. I look forward to Rey flying through space to destroy FO Star Destroyers "Because Force".

 

Don't throw the toys out of the pram. This is the same saga that has the Force creating a baby.

 

And that means we should accept that everything possibly criticised in one of the movies can just be explained as "the Force did it"?

 

Yoda had a pretty good speech about the significance of the force as it relates to its location. Unfortunately he didn't say "and the force trains people in the force so they can use the force. Especially if there's too much light or dark. Then it is like Taco Tuesday. Everything's on sale on Force Friday. Buy one force skill level, get five free. Force Skill Level One is writing your name on the test paper. And if you don't know your last name, you still get it right.

 

Not necessarily. The fact is that you are very likely to have loved one of these "Force did it" moments. So glass houses and all.

 

No, this is just a Force mechanism you don't know the inner workings.

If you were in 1977, you would say the same thing for how Obi-Wan just died and is able to talk to Luke. By then, nobody explained how someone could still be alive after dying, but we just accepted that for 20+ years until episode 3 told us that this can be learnt.

 

I'm sure most people just assumed Ben was talking from the afterlife. It's relatable to people talking about hearing spirits and the Force is more than just a religion because it was "proven" in universe. It hardly seemed ungrounded.

Can force users grow to 100x their size (or shrink 1/100th?). Can force users make the jump to hyperspace with just their bodies? Could Luke have stopped the SKB shots from hitting Hosnian Prime? Can he fly around the planet to turn back time? Could Darth Vader have just force crushed the Death Star anytime he wanted to? Why didn't Vader just heal his lungs and body right on Mustafar and chased OB1 down?

If there are limits to acceptable force powers, then it is perfectly logical to be ok with some force powers but find others go too far.

 

Yes because Luke leaving the dice after his death is the same as Rey being able to suddenly fly through space?

This is a ridiculous double standard. Each film has expanded upon the Force, and no because they expanded on it in a way or in a film that you don't like it's a plot hole.

The reality is the explanation of the reasons that Obi-Wan can become a ghost is 'the Force'. The reason people can lift rocks is 'the Force'. The reason Luke left the dice is 'the Force'. But yeah, I guess, it's a plot hole here and not before because you know...

 

Not already established by the lore, therefore this question makes no sense. If they show a Jedi doing this, then yes, they can. If they don't show a Jedi doing this, it doesn't mean they cannot do it, just that it was not established in lore if this can be done or not.

Not already established by the lore, therefore this question makes no sense. If they show a Jedi doing this, then yes, they can. If they don't show a Jedi doing this, it doesn't mean they cannot do it, just that it was not established in lore if this can be done or not.

Not already established by the lore, therefore this question makes no sense. If they show Luke doing this, then yes, he could. If they don't show Luke doing this, it doesn't mean he could not do it, just that it was not established in lore if this can be done or not.

Not already established by the lore, therefore this question makes no sense. If they show Luke doing this, then yes, he could. If they don't show Luke doing this, it doesn't mean he could not do it, just that it was not established in lore if this can be done or not.

Not already established by the lore, therefore this question makes no sense. If they show Vader doing this, then yes, he could. If they don't show Vader doing this, it doesn't mean he could not do it, just that it was not established in lore if this can be done or not.

Not already established by the lore, therefore this question makes no sense. If they show Vader doing this, then yes, he could. If they don't show Vader doing this, it doesn't mean he could not do it, just that it was not established in lore if this can be done or not.

 

Purrgils can don't know hos many purrgils can use the force though... Hyperspace technology is not force-related I think...

But yeah I do agree that some force powers go too far. Jedi in old animated Tartakovsky Clone Wars and Starkiller in TFA were examples of powerlevels I think went a bit beyond acceptable for me. But honestly it is mostly just opinion which goes too far. Others have issues with something others find perfectly acceptable. Luke's trick in this movie is pretty OP but considering that it actually took his life and he has probably been studying ancient secrets of the jedi for so long- I accept it as sign of his extreme powers and knowledge and it is some ancient technique that only few can master.

I didn't like it how dice thing was done though. It is mostly just odd- I think dice could've been real- moving object through the Force is just telekinesis really, but projecting 3d realistic solid feeling object is pretty weird power- not very jedilike IMO. In The Clone Wars animated show nightsisters mastered similar illusions that appeared as conjuring objects out of thin air though.

 

It was the logic of it. There was absolutely no reason to make the dice tangible. Then in trying to defend it as they disappeared with Luke, we discover the dice actually died much later than Luke. And it is so Luke can troll Kylo (essentially Yo Mama joke). Yes, illogical moves by characters are plot holes.

For instance, why is it that the First Order constantly see beyond what is right in front of their scope. Rey knows to fly around the back, but not the F.O. Finn and Rose can come and go as they please from the chase and the F.O. is aware of none of it. What looks to be the only traitor of the F.O., Finn, isn't recognized as such by people that do business with the F.O. so much it is their livelihood. But in TFA, Finn is worrying about space pirates recognizing him because the F.O. has spies everywhere (and they did).

If a Jedi dies and doesn't even have a lapse in a force skill that was being used at the time of death, why didn't OB1 just levitate his lightsaber and kill the confused Darth Vader in ANH? Why didn't the Jedi just run around turning on each other's lightsabers so their opponents leg was cut off before the duel even begins (like Kylo did to Snoke).

 

"What I feel is correct" is not a plot hole. You cannot describe how Luke managed to create the illusion, therefore you don't know its rules, therefore you cannot say how it is supposed to work.

 

It's not a plot hole when something like the Force explains it. All the characters have powers based upon individual ability. It explained why Obi-Wan can manifest himself but Qui-Gon doesn't. This is an ability that Luke has. You might not like it but it's not a plot hole.