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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Plot Holes In The ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by zackm, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Meaningful plot holes are actually very rare. It’s why this thread probably isn’t really a goldmine for moaners, because pretty much every “plot hole” is something that either has a precedent in the saga, or an equivalent in movie logic in the saga, or simply isn’t a plot hole.

    If there was one plot hole that actually could be demonstrated as “this. Therefore this. So why this?” Where each step is truly a real leap (and characters acting against their own best interest due to other circumstances isn’t a leap, it’s drama)then that would be a big deal.
    I’m not being facetious here, but 99% of the complaints on this thread would be better suited to a “nitpicks” thread.
    A nitpick is to a plothole what a striker diving when tackled is to a football club paying off referees to give favourable decisions.

    This thread literally has people claiming that failure to adhere to real world science is a plot hole. Those people haven’t given any ground when told that lightsabers are therefore a plothole.
     
  2. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Exactly.
     
  3. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
  4. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    I have a better idea. Let's get back on topic and stop discussing other users. I already addressed the situation in general and asked that we now get back on topic. Or, we can discuss it in the Unban Request forum. There are very few plot holes there.
     
  5. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Talking about this in the, possibly misguided, hope that it won’t be jumped on as some sort of admission, this film is almost uniquely (with the possible exception of Empire Strikes Back) about its themes, and about how different people deal with similar/analogous challenges,
    In the pursuit of those themes, there are times that perhaps some character moments are slightly exaggerated in the service of this, or some arcs are shifted slightly (eg Finn slightly retreads his arc- though not to the extent some say - but that if he didn’t do so, he would be less important in the story as it’s his journey in this one that plays into the themes of the film in a way that would have been impossible otherwise)

    In years to come. I suspect that in a big saga rewatch, the thematic focus will just be something to mitigate for in your own mind if it did nothing for you.
     
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  6. Ginkasa

    Ginkasa Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2002
    So, for the sake of argument, let's going ahead and just assume for the moment that this is indeed lazy writing and the movie would have been better by having a scene showing Rey wake up and contemplate whether or not to kill Kylo Ren and provide a specified reason why she did not do so. With this being the assumed case, we're not in plot hole territory. While plot holes typically result from poor writing, not every instance of poor writing is going to be a plot hole.

    Rey is fully capable of making a decision on whether or not to kill Kylo Ren and not killing him is a valid decision that could be made for a multitude of reasons. Maybe we should have been shown those reasons, but not showing those reasons does not cause the story to literally break and become impossible. So, not a plot hole.

    And, for the record, I disagree as well that we needed to see Rey decide not to kill Kylo Ren or that she should have killed Kylo Ren.
     
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  7. zackm

    zackm Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Finn knows where the breaker room is. The assumption being that the dedicated breaker is located in the breaker room.

    1. But... Wait, but who knows
    2. where the breaker room
    3.
    4.
    5. is on a Star Destroyer?
    6.
    7.
    8. I'm the guy that
    9. used to mop it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
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  8. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    So you're saying.... not a plot hole?

    Joking aside - is that the dialogue?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
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  9. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Yes, it is. For me, the biggest mis-step in the film. Doubled down on the only just about defensible “Finn was a cleaner” stuff, and needlessly gave ammunition to everyone who did the “janitor” thing.
     
  10. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    I meant about the breaker room. I have no problem with the mop stuff ;)
     
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  11. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    That really rubbed me the wrong way. There is no way they didn't know what they were doing. Its embarrassing to see that a sequence of convos were used to solidify the space janitor thing, while also revealing that everyone behind this film was asleep at the wheel. We get: "Thats impossible", to later having finn explain EXACTLY how the tech works. Like....WAT?!?!?! I'm a little surprised they didn't throw in a line about him cleaning the grond canon during the hoth sequence.
     
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  12. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    What do you think they were doing?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Yeah I don't like finn the janitor thing either going back to jj and TFA but it's there now, but hope after rian has now made finn a true hero of the resistance it dies off for 9
     
  14. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    I think that what they were attempting was to, whenever referencing his history in the first order, avoiding having anything which showed him as being an active participant in evil/brutality. But I don’t think they’ve pulled it off well and created a different problem
     
  15. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Ah, I don’t mind it at all. I thought it was fun in TFA and fun here.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  16. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Good point. Makes sense.
     
  17. zackm

    zackm Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Yeah, I feel like they already accomplished that in the first scene of TFA when they show him freezing up on Jakku. And then the sanitation line was clearly just a setup for the trash compactor thing later. So nothing about it bothered me in TFA, but I agree that they really didn't need to go back to the well in TLJ.
     
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  18. Pete Ren

    Pete Ren Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    You are right to say it’s thin.

    Very thin, when you consider what happened a few minutes earlier:

    Poe D. can takes out an entire dreadnought’s weapons on his own... Through dreadnought shields as well, with no cover from any other Resistance vessel.

    Did someone forget to switch the shields on when he was hovering above Hux’s ship, like a sitting duck “holding” for Hux?
     
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  19. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    The criticism still comes down to "The First Order must win this battle as quickly and efficiently as possible", which is an assumption that's not supported by the characters we know who are leading the First Order (Hux relishes the chase in the end, and Snoke also "plays with his food"). It's pointing out the admittedly contrived scenario, but virtually all stories have this. The gunners not destroying the pod, the TIE not firing on the Falcon at Alderaan but flying past, the Death Star tractor-beaming the ship, no-one challenging the heroes as they walk around with a wookiee, the Death Star going around Yavin... and these are all just from one movie.

    If you must have an explanation, I suppose you could just see it as the First Order not having sufficient TIEs to launch such an attack (given the opening battle) or that it would cost them more than they wanted to lose (given that all they had to do was just wait it out for no causalties).
     
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  20. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Several varieties of deflector shields exists, including ray shields which deflects or scatters energy (although sometimes they were not powerful enough to fully negate enemy fire) and particle shields which diffuses impacts from high-velocity projectiles and proton weapons. A third type of shield, a concussion shield, repells space debris and other solid objects.

    So we conclude that the dreadnought shield was not a concussion shield.
     
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  21. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    I think that's it - Hux's hubris blinds him to the fact that the Resistance may have a plan. As far as he is concerned, he's got them on the end of a piece of string. They account for 2 cruisers that way. Were it not for the Crait plan, Hux would have had them all. I can work with that.
     
  22. Pete Ren

    Pete Ren Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Seems a pity they couldn’t have explained that point in the movie then. Does rather leave the whole thing open to this debate when none of us know it’s a hole or a different shield that we should know about. Or maybe Poes xwing has a special weapon to penetrate whatever shields are switched on. In any event it would helped if that was explained.
     
  23. Ton_G

    Ton_G Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    Or the dreadnaught lowers shields to charge its main cannons.
     
  24. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I think we have all been spoiled with TV and that it has hours and hours and hours to explain and re explain things. meanwhile The Last Jedi which was already a pretty long movie would have felt measurably longer if they stopped every 10 seconds to fully explain science in the Star wars Universe of how things work. I'm glad they gloss over it just like they did in every previous Star Wars movie.
     
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  25. Scott109

    Scott109 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2016
    The plot is one giant hole.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
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