ST Plot Holes In The ST

1. She dropped the rifle because she wanted to fight with her baton
2. Because that baton was very important to her:

"During her service as stormtrooper Captain of the First Order, Phasma chose a quicksilver baton as her personal weapon as it resembled a tribal spear made of quicksilver like the ones that were used by the tribe where she grew up at a mountain range located on the planet Parnassos."

Since her fight with Finn was all about her pride, she choose the baton as a way to get her personal revenge from Finn.

 

What scene was this in? I guess I missed that part.

I could care less about any of these supposed plot holes, I don't even really think there are any....but you're actually arguing against a arguable plot hole in the movie, by showing evidence from something not in the movie. You're literally filling a hole in there with outside material. That doesn't help your case.

 

These movies aren't going to take the time to explain tiny bits of lore like that - that isn't how stories are told naturally. No Star Wars movie has done that. You don't show Phasma drop her gun and say "I'm going to take care of you with my special baton, because it means a lot to me, and so does defeating you!" This isn't Dragonball Z.

The movies will show you, not tell you, specific character actions and choices, so that you can come up with a logical conclusion as to why it was done, or ponder about it enough to the point that you want to find out more about the backstory and lore. There just isn't time to explain every little thing - especially when it's completely irrelevant to the overall plot of the film. I'm using Phasma's baton as an example, but there are plenty of others in TLJ that I could go to.

I'm not sure if that makes some people angry - but I can assure you it makes for better, more realistic actions and dialogue rather than scene-stopping exposition, and thus, makes for a better movie. The Star Wars universe, and its characters, has expanded. Lucasfilm has embraced the idea of using ancillary materials like TV, novels, and comics in order to expand on small bits of lore and backstory, like Phasma's baton-staff. It's a massive, mythological story now - we don't just have movies anymore.

But make no mistake - just because it isn't included in the movie doesn't mean it's a flaw. It's done by design, because it isn't important to the central plot. Just my take on the whole Phasma weapon situation which can also apply to other, small bits of unexplained background information that TLJ just didn't have time to hold viewer's hands over.

 

My point has been made; I believe it is a plot hole. When you need your audience to look way outside of "x" to consume "x", or in some cases make up things to explain the behavior of characters, the writing isn't good. Stop doing the job for the writer.

 

Just in case anyone forgot.

 

Curious - Any suggestions on how the 'importance of Phasma's baton' could have been conveyed in that scene without stalling the action and killing the momentum of the film? I know it's possible that I'll get a 'That's the writer's job, not mine' response, but it makes for good discussion to see what alternative routes could possibly have been taken in these scenes.

 

Don't overthink it. Hand-to-hand combat is more personal than simply shooting someone. Phasma wanted Finn's demise to have a certain level of satisfaction. This isn't a new thing in movies.

 

While Finn, Rose and DJ are sneaking around the Supremacy, through an air duct or something, Rose pauses to look through a vent at a Stormtrooper sparring session. Phasma is laying the smack down on troopers, 10 at a time with her baton, no armor or helmets:

Rose: “Who’s that?”

Finn: “That’s Phasma, commander of Kylo Ren’s legion. They recruited her from the barbarian clans of Parnassos. See that spear? She’s killed krayt dragons with it.”

DJ: “Ohh, what’s in the peep show?”

Finn: “Let’s go”

90 second scene, tops. I dunno, I'm sure a professional screenplay writer could do better.

 

even without the explanation it's an old movie trope to drop your gun and fight someone hand to hand.

 

Fine, forget about the dropping a rifle and choosing to use a pike over a pistol... simply consider why Phasma is so invested in Finn and vice versa to the point they would drag out hand to hand, clunky combat. Phasma dislikes Finn because he defected.... one in how many millions of stormtroopers...and Finn hates Phasma because she's a bad person. Yea, ok. And before you go and say that their backstory is explained more in novels... nothing in the movies hints at any backstory at all. Phasma just always shows up for a few minutes and casual viewers would have no idea why there is such a personal conflict between the two. But, I suppose this is less of a plot hole and more so just a lack of developed writing. Example of spitting out cool scenes without creating a strong story.

 

Some nice fun adressing some fair criticisms while also making fun of some complainers :

 

And if people want to see his actual thoughts on the film his review seems pretty fair:

Spoiler: HISHE TLJ Review

Although this probably isn't the place to be posting it. Just thought I'd respond to the other HISHE post.

 

Exactly. And this is a very known thing in movies, the scene where two antagonists fight each other in order to exact vengeance.

Hand-to-hand, knifes and other types of melee weapons are used for that. This is meant to make that fight stand out as a more personal thing than the regular gun fights.

Melee weapons = close combat = special enemy = personal
Guns/Blaster = ranged combat = regular enemies = war casualties

 

I’m a different animal as I like to overthink. To me this is a juxtaposition to Han and Ben. Han still loved his son even though he was “betrayed “. Ben meanwhile has a satisfaction of sorts believing he had to do it to achieve the Dark side advantages promised and letting his past die. Ben: "Thank you".

With Phasma she understandably is disgusted with Finn and rejects all he now stands for. Finn gets the satisfaction of joining the Rebel side and letting his past die. Finn: "Rebel scum"

Both Phasma and Han die in the same manner. The angle of the falls seem similar. Phasma however into the fire and Han the dark cold of space.

Just my opinion of course.

MJ

 

A professional screenplay writer would not write such a scene. This is the kind of blatant, heavy-handed exposition that most writers try to avoid, but sometimes gets in movies anyway as a result of studio notes (essentially concerned that audiences will not get it).

Finn and Phasma fighting in TLJ is probably one of my least favourite parts of TLJ. It feels distinctly at odds with the rest of the film in terms of there being so much with thought behind what's going on, and then this scene comes along and it's rather dull spectacle over substance. That said, I don't think the solution is more backstory. TFA provides the necessary context. Finn defected, got her to lower the shields and then left her for dead. On the other side, Finn obviously chafed under her command. Equally though, you don't want to have the characters overtly saying too much, or you end up with a Guardians of the Galaxy 2 approach where characters yell out why they're so mad, sad etc.

 

Oh man, I absolutely think the solution to the Finn/Phasma scene is more backstory. Not Phasma backstory on her spear, but specifically Finn/Phasma background. People keep saying that the reason she throws down her gun (off screen) is because there is honor in fighting hand-to-hand and it's personal with Finn... except why does Phasma, the ST that easily lowered SKB's shields to save her own skin, care about honor, and why is this Finn stuff so personal to her? Is it because he put her in the garbage shoot? I dunno, but it would certainly be more interesting if they actually had a deeper history than that.

 

He's a traitor. Everyone in the FO sees his betrayal as a personal affront. Same reason so many Americans wanted Bowe Bergdahl to get the death penalty despite being much less cut-and-dry than Finn's transgressions.

 

Killing someone with a melee weapon in an age of blasters is personal and yet doesn't have to include an honour component. You could possibly make a case that her killing Finn with her spear is a way for her to regain her lost honour. Asking why would it be personal for Phasma is a bit disingenuous given their interactions. All the Finn and Phasma backstory is in the films already, or rather TFA. We don't need to know about their past relationship. We need to know about their current relationship.

What the scene needs is more dialogue or development when they are captured and while they are held helplessly, ie, before they even fight. It just needs more time devoted to it. Ideally a scene between them alone before being paraded before the legion. Instead it's too busy too quickly and Hux practically robs the most significant part of scene (slapping Finn). And then it needs something more than just a few clashes and it ending with a BTTF2 homage and exchange of quips. Phasma has far too few lines to make it anything more than a sideshow. I suppose that's ok given all the other stuff that happens in this film.

 

This.

The makers of TFA were blown away by the fanbase response to the TR-8R throw down with Finn.

If anything it wasn't a plot hole - just some gratuitous fan service to recapture that bit of magic. Especially as many had asked why it wasn't Phasma who fought him in the last one.

I'd sày it had nothing to do with Phasma's character (really). They probably thought it would be cool and everyone would enjoy it.

 

It is basic, and a little more between them would have helped, no doubt, but equally, to get their conflict (ie is it a plot hole) you don't need any more than what is in the films (TFA and TLJ).

The extra clarity and exposition some of you want would turn the film into a 5 hour long exposition slog.

Phasma is the equivalent of an Indiana Jones thug - one that pops up in two films.

We know she doesn't like Finn much from the opening of TFA when she's on to him and that he's a rare case of a trooper slipping his conditioning. Then he gets up in her face when he gets her to drop the shields, humiliating and potentially landing her in trouble in the process. We know she wants to make him hurt by the relish with which she approaches his would-be execution. Fighting him with the pike is a power thing, not an efficiency thing. And perfectly in line with every bad guy who wants to dominate an enemy instead of just killing them quickly. If you have a problem with this, I assume you have a problem with every other instance in the saga where a villain doesn't just immediately terminate an enemy. There are plenty of examples.

 

Again, why would the woman that lowered SKB's shields care if he's a traitor? She's a traitor. One of the only things we know about Phasma is that she's out for herself first and foremost.

This is a strawman. Movies add depth and context and history for relationships every day without being 5 hour long exposition slogs.

Perhaps the problem is in your presumptuous assumption of anyone's thought processes as opposed to just answering what is specifically said based on the movie. Whataboutism has nothing to do with Phasma versus Finn, but I know I could discuss "every other instance in the saga where a villain doesn't just immediately terminate an enemy" in specific terms to those individual scenes and characters. I could do it without bringing up Phasma and Finn, who are different characters portrayed in a different movie in a different context.

I actually don't have a "problem" with this part of the movie. Just questions, and I'm just discussing them. I don't think it's a movie-making travesty that the Phasma/Finn showdown imo suffered from inconsistency and a lack of depth. It was a side thing in the movie. The movie didn't succeed or fail based on this scene, despite the fact that based on the trailers it was the scene I was most looking forward to in the movie.

 

You're spot on about Phasma being out for herself. I really think it's just personal to her because he embarrassed her. He was a Stormtrooper in her division who made her look like a fool and failure. Like, it's less of a 'you're a traitor!' thing and more of a personal pride thing. I mean, if I were Phasma, I'd be pretty fed up with Finn at that point too. IMO, from what we're shown on screen in TFA, Phasma has a reason to have it out for Finn in the way that she does in TLJ.

 

I'd say this qualifies as blatant, heavy-handed exposition:

Finn: What are those things?
Rose: Falthiers. I’ve never seen a real one.
Finn: Look this whole place is beautiful I mean c’mon, why do you hate it so much?
Rose: Look closer. My sister and I grew up in a poor mining system. The First Order stripped our ore to finance their military, then shelled us to test our weapons. They took everything we had. And who do you think these people are? There’s only one business in the galaxy that’ll get you this rich.
Finn: War
Rose: Selling weapons to the first order. I wish, I could put my fist through this whole lousy beautiful town.

This too, though it's better disguised:

Luke: Lesson number two. Now that they’re extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified, but if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris –
Rey: That’s not true –
Luke: At the height of their powers they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire and wipe them out. It was a Jedi master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader.
Rey: And a Jedi who saved him. Yes, the most hated man in the galaxy, but you saw there was conflict inside him. You believed that he wasn’t gone, that he could be turned.
Luke: And I became a legend. For many years there was balance, and then I saw Ben, my nephew, with that mighty Skywalker blood and in my hubris I thought I could train him, I could pass on my strengths. Han was, Han about it, but . . . Leia. Trust me with her son. I took him, and a dozen students, and began the training temple. By the time I realized I was no match for the darkness rising in him, it was too late.

Exposition is pretty much unavoidable in fantasy movies because there needs to be context.

 

Yes, but you only use it when absolutely necessary (as those examples were) - Lucas said as much. Phasma's spear doesn't need an explanation.

 

Both those exposition examples, however, are providing key character information. Rose is telling us her backstory and it feels natural in the context of where they are; more importantly, she wants Finn to understand something that means a lot to her. Luke meanwhile is passing on a lesson he feels is important to Rey and these details are key to that lesson. But it's also serving as an expression of where Luke is at himself and why he's a man on an island (figuratively and literally).

There's a marked difference between these and a Captain Ric Olie style "and look there, that's Phasma with her spear that she got from..." That kind of costume detail does not need be told to us, any more than a character needs to turn to another and say "Vader wears that helmet to help him breathe". Rather than exposition, we probably needed to see Phasma use it before it materialized out of nowhere...