CT Plot holes in the OT that weren't plot holes until they made the PT

No, there is another.....That you have obviously forgotten all about. The twin. The girl. You were there when their mother died. She is the one in the message from that blue robot.

 

We're you being patronising at all? Because what he said makes non-sense.

 

Why do you think:

They're an indicator of one's potential to use the Force, they do not determine one's potential, their potential determines their Midi-Chlorian count.

makes no sense?

 

Anakin was a jerk and Obi-Wan was constantly annoyed with him. That sounds more like the co-worker I want to b**** slap than 'good friends'

Anakin was a whiny brat who murdered women and children, disobeyed orders regularly, disregarded his master's instructions, didn't respond to a woman repeatedly telling him no, and did I mention he murdered children? children?

The inconsistency; He was a good person who was corrupted. No, he was a jerk who got worse. A lot worse.

 

TPM Anakin is willing to help Padme and the Jedi at his own risk. He's even the one reminding his mother that "the biggest problem is that nobody helps each other".

As to "not responding to a woman repeatedly telling him no" a case can be made that this applies far more to Han in ESB than Anakin in AoTC.

Whether or not they were good friends during Anakin's apprenticeship- there's plenty of room for Anakin & Obi-Wan to become good friends during 3 years of war, with them both as Knights.

 

Not from what I saw.

 

I could buy that except for one thing, and that is how far Yoda takes the lesson. He isn't merely talking in spiritual terms, or focusing on the spiritual aspects. he is literally telling Luke that you are not your body. He is rejecting the importance of the physical being outright. He dismisses it, and with disdain. "Crude matter". His lesson, the physical is of no importance.

That does not fit the PT's force bacteria in any way, shape or form. It's not just clumsy.

 

I never really believe that Anakin is the person described to us in ANH at all.

 

The Anakin that was portrayed in ANH was vastly different from the one we was presented with in E2 and E3. In TPM it was irrelevant because he was just a kid. Obi wan has an affection in his eyes when he reflects on the Anakin he knew before (as he recounts) Vader killed him. This notion wasn't portrayed, so it was nigh on impossible to make the connection between the two.

 

They make a weak attempt to show us this friendship at the beginning of EPIII, but it doesn't really come across well at all.

 

The 'weak' attempt was futile. A proper and dear friendship needs to be conveyed over more than just a few scenes. Otherwise where's the 'weight' when the friendship ends?

 

If midis are present in all living things, bacteria have them too, so calling them force bacteria is a misnomer.

I would see a contradiction were it not for the material reality of the SW universe. To me, "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" doesn't resemble a scientific statement. Spiritually literal or theologically literal, maybe -- but it's pretty obvious that Yoda isn't giving a biology lecture. The conversation is taking place in objective reality; if what he was saying was literally true in an objective sense then he'd have no need to say it (and no mechanism to say it)!

The lesson was about Luke learning how to use his powers. From what I can make out Yoda is attempting to shatter Luke's physical preconceptions, to unlearn what he has learned within the confines of his physical manifestation and reach out beyond with the force. That's not in conflict with a quantifiable description of the force as described by Qui Gon by any stretch (or compression) of the imagination.

The force is depicted as real, an objective fact which renders our real world science v spirituality arguments meaningless. Obi Wan really does appear as a force ghost; literally (in a physical/scientific sense) a luminous being. The PT tells us (admittedly via deleted scenes) that is was none other than that outspoken advocate of midichlorian science Qui Gon Jinn who passed the skill to Yoda and Kenobi. I rather like that idea.

Midichlorians are a good example of a subverted expectation, but not a hole in the plot. I promise to hear your arguments if you present them.

 

Actually, it tells us that in a scene that's in ROTS, even though the scene where Qui-Gon speaks to Yoda was "deleted" ( unfilmed ).

And Luke is the one he's telling. "That boy is our last hope." Why? Inherited strength in the Force.

Yoda never says or intends to say that all beings should have the same ability to use the Force ( nor has it ever been justified why - in the realm of luminosity - one "luminous being" should be any more strong in the Force than any other ). As has already been stated to little effect, his statement is being taken entirely out of context.

No need for implying - he says outright that all living cells have midichlorians in them.

One of these quantities is measured and described in the films and used as an indicator of Force potential. The other is not even mentioned in the films. That seems fairly clear.

Not in the films. And Lucas' comments on this topic have never cited lost midichlorians as the reason for lost Force potential. Furthermore, he has also mentioned Anakin getting burned up in this context, so it's not all about lost limbs, and since he has cited a connection between the Force and breath it seems relevant that Vader's breathing is controlled by a machine.

 

My understanding was the midichlorians lived in a person's blood and facilitated their ability to feel/utilise the force.

All living things (Flora, Fauna and Micro-organisms) contain midichlorians as they all contain the force and give out a force enegy via their midichlorians, the higher the concentration the higher the level of force given out. Essentially acting as a conductor.

Using this theory it doesn't appear to conflict with anything that was estanblished in OT or the EU based upon it (not to sure on any EU released based upon the PT as I haven't read any of it). Even still allowing for Yoda's reason for hiding on Degobah, using the "dark" cave to offset his "light" side force energy.

Is Jedi training therefore also learning to harness/control the conductors with in them as well as the the physical & mental skills?

 

Samuel Vimes
A high midi-chlorian count does indicate a strong connection with the Force, yes, but a low count does not, as far as we know, exclude the possibilty of using the Force. After all, the midi-chlorians reside within all living cells. More importantly, the Force is created by all living things. This means that all living plants and creatures are connected to the Force and by my reasoning, they should also be able to make use of it.
The fact that the Force is stronger with some individuals only means that they have an innate talent for understanding and using the Force. Others may be able to learn, as well, but for these individuals, it's just easier. The Jedi search for kids with a knack for doing Jedi stuff because they want the best of the best. They could probably take less talented individuals under their wing, but that would mean a lot more work for a less-than-stellar result.


About total amount vs concentration: In TPM, it's the concentration of midi-chlorians that's being discussed, which leads me to believe that that's all that matters. There's nothing in the movies to suggest otherwise. Quite the opposite: "Size matters not"
What GL says outside of the movies doesn't really matter, but my interpretation of his statement is that Anakin is weakened because of the way he's been wounded, not because he is smaller. The trauma of ROTS weakened him physically and spiritually. He's a broken man, a shadow of his former self. Naturally, his ability to use the Force has been impaired.





- Your powers are weak, old man.
- You still have much to learn, my young apprentice.
/LM

 

You're right, he's not giving a biology lesson at all, he's rejecting the importance of the physical realm in it's entirety. To him, at least in TESB, the biology is utterly unimportant. That is the basis of the lesson.

Ever single response on this thread ignores that basic truth. He isn't simply focusing on one aspect of reality over the other, spiritual Vs physical, he is completely disregarding one in favor of the other.

He dismisses the physical outright. All of you are accepting at least an aspect of it. In other words, you are substituting your words for his to make something that does not fit, fit.

I don't buy it

 

As time goes on I'm getting tired of the midi chlorian thing so I will give my take on it one last time for your benefit. Watch the scene where Yoda explains the force to Luke in ESB (or Obi wan in ANH) and that it is how I think the Force should be perceived. Making it a scientific concept just dilutes the mystery and wonder of it. The Force In a test tube if you will. It's supposed to be magical and wonderous. It wasn't meant to be something that could be explained in a textbook (IMO) And these advocates of it can say, 'we'll it doesn't explain it it just says that someone could have the potential to be strong in the force' Well forgive me, but was that really something that needed to be explained? I mean, really? The whole mystique of the Jedi/Sith was gone in that single moment with Qui Gonn in TPM. Gone. Forever. It was almost as if Lucas had a grudge against the people who made ESB such a classic because they defied him so much and TPM was Lucas's revenge.

 

I agree that it's a thematic inconsistency, but the point I'm arguing is that it's simply not a plot hole.

But you're just repeatedly asserting your opinion, you're not actually providing an argument.

Yoda cannot be literally rejecting the physical because he uses the physical to communicate his message. He's using rhetorical devices rooted in the physical to hint at what lies beyond.

The fact that TPM indulges in a touch of cod scifi is thematically jarring, but I see no hole in the plot. You're going to have to explain it to me.

 

I understand, but I don't agree. Yoda would not say such a thing if he didn't believe it. It's a plot hole. A big one. The force is not of the body.

It's not just a theme, it's the basis of his teachings. And it is completely contradicted by the existence of force bacteria. The arguments on this board always ignore that basic truth. He is rejecting the physical. You say he can't. He can and he did. In plain English.

You guys are all just repeating the same basic argument as well, you realize that.

 

Again, you're knowingly taking him out of context. Context used to mean something. His point was that he should not be judged by his size, because even though he's a little green elf-troll he can levitate starships. I continue to see no rationale for why there should be any difference in Force attunement in the luminous plane. Yet there is a difference in the physical plane. Luke is the "last hope" other than Leia. If biology has no importance at all, why is Luke important? There are literally quadrillions of "luminous beings" running around the galaxy who could be given a pep talk, trained to swing a glow stick and pitted against the Empire. Why is Luke so special? Why is it that some creatures have more potential in the Force than others? The difference lies in their biology. Cronal emphasized the importance of Luke's body in relation to his strength in the Force.

Irony much?

 

I have taken nothing out of context. I'm viewing it in it's ordinal context. These are the foundations of his instruction to Luke.

You want to talk out of context, look no further than this

That is not found in the OT,

There is no irony. I show you what Yoda says, you talk to me about things not found in the movies. As you often do. You tell me I'm taking movies out of their context and then immediatly talk of Cronal.

I don't care about Cronal. This is not an EU discussion

Yoda makes himself very clear. He needs no substitutions from me. I simply show what he says, guys like you attempt to tell me why I shouldn't believe him. Or why he means something other than what he says.

This thread is littered with it. This whole board is

 

The biological question is answered in the OT in RotJ with Luke's statement, "The force is strong in my family."

Strength in the force is shown to be hereditary. Hereditary characteristics can be described biologically.

Plain English exists in the physical. Space, the rock, the ship, all are physical concepts in a physical universe. 'The Force' is a physical term. Your opinion doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.

We guys?

Speaking for myself, I'm trying to understand your position despite your apparent reluctance to provide a reasoned logical argument.

 

The sky is green. I can fly by flapping my arms. Jar-Jar is a popular character.

 

Luke and Leia as the last hope? Found in the movies.

Leia being assured of significant Force strength, because it runs in the Skywalker bloodline? Found in the movies.

Binding the galaxy together sounds like it has to do with the physical universe.

 

But the point is that we are not really of this physical world. That is the point. We aren't our bodies, we are not of this crude matter. We aren't like the rock. That is the lesson. We are not of this physical world. That is what he says, not what I say. You are not this crude matter, those are his words, not mine.


You would have that meaning change, I don't buy into it.

This is not compatible with force bacteria. Clearly we are this crude matter if we are what our force bacteria allows us to be.

One is about spirit and mind

The other is about what's in your body