Plot holes? The final chapter.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by OrlandoT, Apr 7, 2002.

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  1. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    For the simple reason that, for all intents and purposes, they are the villains in this movie. Yes, I realize they're being played by the REAL villain, but come on... these are the people the heroes are fighting against.

    Actually, if you think about it, they're fighting against the battle droids, who are controlled by the Trade Federation, who are controlled by Darth Sidious. It's that magic 3 again...

    Considering that the (E.U.rgh, I think) reason for a centralised control ship is because the Trade Federations are paranoid about giving the droids any independant power of their own, that's quite an ironic little twist... (I reckon...)


    >>>>...and by God, why didn't they just call it STAR WARS: THE PHANTOM MENACE??!!?

    Because people would think that it's not supposed to be the beginning of the saga. (Not that literally spelling it out worked for some people in the Forums...)
  2. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    moviechaser
    I think the movie pretty strongly indicates that the message from Sio Bibble was what gave away their position. How this was done was discussed quite extensively in the first pages of the thread.

    It's possible that the trace was unrelated to the message, and that they only used trajectories, but it would make an entirely loose thread out of QuiGon's comment about the message being a bait.
  3. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Random, I see what you're getting at, but I think that's a bit of a reach. The battledroids were part of the TF and not an independent group which was being played by the TF as the TF was being played by Palpatine. By that token, the Rebels on Hoth were fighting against FOUR separate entities... Palpatine controlled Vader who controlled General Veers who controlled the snowtrooper and AT-AT forces. But they all fell under the umbrella of "The Empire".

    By the same token, the battledroids fall under the umbrella of the Trade Federation.
  4. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    Lukecash
    You make good points about sympathy and legislation.

    It is possible I guess, that the Senate isn't all-rotten through and through as I percieved it it be. It just struck me as weird that it would take with one hand and give back with the other. Almost like calling the little Kuwaiti girl a liar while still commiting itself to action on her very word.

    Perhaps GL modeled the PT all too close to our current world? :)
  5. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    I think Lucas modeled it VERY much on our current political world as seen from his perspective. IMHO the situation in TPM certainly had some parallels with the Clinton "Hummer-gate" fiasco, between the fact that Valorum was rendered politically impotent by accusations of corruption and the fact that Lucas (purposely, I always felt) referred to "the Congress of the Galaxy" in the crawl rather than calling it the Senate. When I first saw this bit in the crawl on opening day in '99 I immediately wondered if he was getting in a dig at the U.S. Congress... I've never heard the Republic governing body referred to as anything other than the "Senate" beyond that line in the crawl.

    And I must say... when I saw the AOTC "Clone War" trailer and heard Palpatine's statements, I couldn't help but think of our present situation with the White House pushing for expanded powers and military funding.

    I wouldn't call any of it a direct reference to our current political climate, but certainly that must figure into it... Lucas has repeatedly said that his favorite TV programs are the evening news and 60 Minutes. It would be unnatural if that didn't allow contemporary politics to soak into his SW writing.
  6. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    Good point Patrick. George Lucas has said in an interview recently (I think I read it in Time.com) that he is working with the theme of "how does a democracy turn into a dictatorship", and "how does a good man become corrupt". It is interesting how the fates of Anakin and the Republic are kind of the same, and intertwined.

    With the current right-wing borderline fascism wind blowing across Europe and current World-wide events, Lucas's theme is all too familiar, and history is getting awfully close to repeating itself. Too close for comfort.
  7. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<I am arguing that it actually has a very strong plot, and that it isn't "bad" or "lazy" just because some things won't be revealed until the next two films.

    What you are missing here is that TPM is actually a great entry into the SW saga, and at the very least as good as the classic trilogy.

    >>


    It is? At the very least as good as the classic trilogy? I've heard everything. Even the weakest film in the classic trilogy, ROTJ, was far superior to TPM (and if you say "it's the climax, that's why it's better", I am going to go INSANE).


    Oh and how do you know some things will be revealed in the last two movies? Actually, much of these things probably won't be revealed in the last two movies. I'll grant that a couple of things, like the chosen one deal, could by explained, but a lot of other things probably won't be. And even if they were, that doesn't change things in TPM too much, because it wil probably come off as seeming too awkward and forced or something.


    Oh wait, I forgot that Lucas has a "detailed plan" for the PT that he is following almost religiously. My bad. That must be why he wrote an ENTIRE movie about a character who is only in one episode and barely, if at all, existed back in the 70's/ 80's.
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    If you are a cup half empty kind of guy, then that's your problem.
  9. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Patrick: "Aw, SH**, man!!! I ordered a burger and they didn't put a patty on the bun!!"

    Gomer: "Boy, you really are a glass-is-half-empty sorta guy, aren't you?"

    Patrick: "But there's nothing but mustard, ketchup and lettuce on this thing!"

    Gomer: "You don't see the culinary genius of it, do you? Not only are they piquing your hunger for a burger so that you'll be even more into it next time you order from them, but with that lettuce you're getting some prime roughage without all the meat."

    Patrick: "Yer WOT?? What kind of a dump serves up a full-price burger with no PATTY on it??"

    Gomer: "But it's not a dump, Patrick. It's the finest burger joint in town!"

    Patrick: "Okay, explain that! How, in fact, is a burger joint which leaves the patty off of a burger the "finest burger joint in town"? I'm curious."

    Gomer: "You're just getting wrapped up in your own expectations. You expected a patty on your burger, and you can't accept that, for a very good reason which shall be revealed to you when the time is right, they made you a burger that was different than you expected."

    Patrick: "But there's no actual burger ON here!!"

    Gomer: "From your point of view. It's all part of the plan."

    Patrick: "WHAT PLAN??? I ordered a burger and they gave me a bun with condiments and no effin' patty! What POSSIBLE plan could this be a part of?"

    Gomer: "I'd think it would be obvious. They're trying to weed out the riff-raff."

    Patrick: "What?!"

    Gomer: "This sandwich was specifically designed to test the customers, and to separate the true fans of this burger joint from the whiners. They'll drive the whiners off, then serve actual burgers to those of us who truly believe in the place."

    Patrick: "You're nuts, man! I'm not gonna eat an empty bun and call it a burger!"

    Gomer: "That's your own fault..."

    (cut to: Patrick in a straitjacket in the local looney bin...)



  10. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    Torgo:

    Are you so intent on finding fault that you'd throw logic out the window?

    How do you know how far it is from where the Jedi landed to Theed?

    Should the Jedi have left Jar-Jar in a city that's either invaded or about to be?

    Where did you get the idea that the forest was just around the corner?

    Why would he leave Jar_Jar behind when he could keep his eye on him?

    BTW, I don't insist that Obi-Wan had to stay behind. Common sense dictates that one Jedi had to stay behind.
  11. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Patrick --- from way back now;

    Why do the cowards of the TF suddenly turn into aggressors? Good question, and not one that points to bad writing on Lucas' part - but the very question at the core of the film's plot! The answer is that they are in league with a dark overlord - a Sith! They are being controlled and manipulated by the darkest power the galaxy has ever seen! And nobody knows it at the time of TPM.

    If you refuse to accept that a Sith can coerce lesser beings into doing something that seems (and indeed is) irrational, then I understand why you don't buy this. But speaking for myself - this is what I've always seen as the very nature of the Sith!

    Indeed, you are RIGHT in assuming that the invasion and posession of Naboo is the primary objective here - but it's not the TF's, it's Palpatine's. Because this aggressive invasion of his peaceful home planet is the last piece of the puzzle that will lead him into office on Coruscant. The TF think they're trying to get the senate to call off the taxation - but Palpy/Sid doesn't give a wampa about that issue, beyond its destabilizing powers. The TF are merely greedy and Gunray thinks he is getting help in making the TF more economically successful by teaming up with Sidious. He does NOT think they'll be invading. Sid says to accelerate their plans, but Gunray replies "My lord ... is that legal?", clearly thinking that the threat of an invasion was the furthest this thing would ever go. But Sid/Palpy is playing it all by his own rules and the TF don't understand a thing beyond their fear for Sidious. It all becomes like Wormtongue in LotR - the TF are sedated by Sidious' seemingly helpful dealings, but in truth he poisons them more for every time he speaks to them. And by the time an invasion is ordered, the TF have no will of their own.

    I say again - the TF didn't want Naboo, they were merely manipulated into blockading it by a certain someone who DID want Naboo - as the final piece in his horrible scheme for tumbling Valorum and grasping power to begin creating his Empire. The TF merely hoped to get rid of taxation - they couldn't see any further than their own pockets, merchants that they were.

    As for the senate revoking the TF's trade franchise ---
    You're forgetting a lot of info in the movie here. We learn that the senate is corrupt, that it's full of greedy and squabling delegates with no interest in the common good. And we also learn that the beaurocrats are on the payroll of the TF. All in all, it seems very unlikely that this senate will revoke any franchise (like the Naboo seem to be hoping). On the contrary, the TF are still going strong in AotC, 10 years later...

    "The senate reserved the right to terminate the Federation's trade license" - hmm, we really only have Panaka's word here.

    And I also believe you're underestimating Sidious' powers. The TF have placed themselves in his hands. They are at his command. It's obvious in TPM that when he says jump, the TF promptly jump. I find it very likely that a Sith Lord can get people to do something which is not good for them, like the TF do when they invade Naboo.

    The TF are not looking for a military base. They're not out to make a challenge to the Republic. Bear with me while I refer to 'Cloak of Deception' --- they have recently built an army to protect themselves against terrorists and pirates in the Outer Rim, something Sidious/Palpatine has been very helpful in acommodating - to the point where the "helpful" Sidious is actually the mind behind attacks on the TF that lead them to beg the senate for means to defend themselves. In effect, this is not the TF's army - it's Sidious'! If someone is planning to build armies on Naboo, it's Palpatine. Not the unsuspecting TF.

    You complain that the TF don't have a motivation for their actions. I disagree. They want to get rid of taxations and a Sith Lord is telling them how to go about it. I don't see how that is implausible... At least,we should consider that a Sith Lord might be able to control the minds of these greedy TF guys so that th
  12. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Well, there you go... purposely creating a weak villain for something like a Star Wars movie is just asinine and a waste of time. I don't care if the word "phantom" is in the title or not... if a villain does not cause the audience to worry about the heroes, then what's the point? It's like a cheeseburger without any meat on it... great lettuce, cheese and condiments, but as a burger it's missing a vital ingredient. "But the CHEESE is really good. They'll give you a beef patty NEXT time you order a burger from them."<<<



    Which is why I hate the to say, "they were supposed to be that way."

    Never once did I say that the heroes weren't in any danger. Add deadly underwater creatures and vicious pod racers to a droid army and Darth Maul, it's not like our heroes are never in any danger.

    The point is that the TF, the Neimodians are not the mastermind of the series or even TPM. They are businessmen playing the role of villains. They were mere henchmen. TPM did not hide this fact. It illustrated that the real villains were the sith. Made even more frightening by the fact that our heroes were barely aware of the real threat.
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Patrick, I am not sure where you get the idea TPM is a burger with no beef, but that is hardly the case. It clocks in at just over 2 hours just like the other episodes. It Introduces a bevy of new planets, aliens and vehicles, more than has been introduced in any SW film so far.

    A proper analogy might be that this trilogy is a 3 course meal. You are mistaking the appetizer for the main course, and now you are embarassing yourself by yelling at the waiter, when everyone else in the restraunt knows you are just an impatient guy who has never had a 3 course meal before.

    If you want burgers, you should just stick to fast food joints like ID4.
  14. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Patrick, I found that really quite funny.
  15. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    I got to admit, I got a good chuckle out of Patric's little tale. I disagree with him, but it was funny nonetheless.
  16. QBF Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 1
    Patrick Russell continues to be one of the only posters who makes sense about The Phantom Menace, and it amazes me how many posters continue to argue with him about the merits of TPM.

    How can anyone argue that TPM is good because of what will happen in Episodes II and III? These people haven't even seen Episodes II and III yet! How can anyone say that the idiocies of TPM are in any way going to be resolved by the next two episodes? TPM can only be judged on its own merits, and on its own merits, it was a miserable failure.

    When Star Wars and its characters were introduced in 1977 in the first episode, we were not given an inferior movie, with inferior villains, inferior dialogue, and an inferior plot. (And if you think I'm only referring to the Trade Federation as an inferior villain in TPM, you're wrong. Darth Sidious is an awfully-constructed villain in TPM. The only impact he carries in TPM is due to what Lucas had him do in ROTJ 16 years earlier.)

    And, anyway, even Ewan McGregor thought TPM stunk. I wonder how many other of his own movies has he publicly criticized becuase of how bad he thought they were. I mean, doesn't Ewan know how much better TPM is going to become when Episode III is made?
  17. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    Well, let me put it this way...

    I like Patrick, we debate, see eachothers points and have a good time. But like most Bashers, he cannot understand how we liked TPM. Nor that we had accepted the fact that we had come accepted what Lucas gave us in the spirit it was given.

    With the exception of his little burgers sketch- Patrick usually doesn't get into peeing contest with another poster. However, considering it is Gomer, I am not surprised. :D

    But there are three things that I can't see why Patrick is so stubborn

    1)The Phantom Menance title does play into the script.

    QG:"I've got a bad feeling about this."
    OW:"I don't sense anything"
    GG:"It's not about the mission, Master its something...elswere...elusive"

    Right off the bat-Obi-wan, who is much wiser than Qui-Gon about some things, probbably felt the Sith Menance...but like a phantom-it is elusive.

    The Jedi, didn't even realize that a Sith just gained a major foothold in aquiring power. And he did it by suckering some greedy corporation into doing it.

    2)Patric gets focused in on a very small plot points

    Now I agree with Patrick that the Trade Federations "reason" for invading the planet is weak. Actually, it is never explain why the TF would think an actual invasion would be benificial. Or maybee the point is they weren't chosen to think ;)

    1)It is obvious the Sith was in charge...they were following his order ... that explains the "illogic moves". 2)The Trade Federation denied the invasion even took place. So the simple explination is that they did it on the advice of a Sith, and was going to justify it by the Queens signature.

    But the main thing is...Do we NEED to know all of the motivations? It is already understood that the Sith are calling the shots. Does this help advance the story of Anakin journey to be a Jedi...and Qui-Gons discovery of him? Does it help the plot of a Queen who needs to unite two races and overthow an occupational force? I really don't need to know the motivation of every single minor charactors.

    3)The Phantom Menance is the FIRST part of the over all story.

    G. Lucas stated in Time magazine article(which I know you ALL read by now) Lucas felt to tell the story he wanted, he had to show where Anakin came from. He now says we get into the meat of the story in the next two films of why he went bad.

    And how does the film stand up on its own? Pretty decent. All of the major plot points are tied up...but not neccisarily neatly.

    1) Naboo is invaded, will Queen Amidalia get it free? The answere is yes, She realizes she had to change her position on war-but with the help of friends and allies, she succeded.

    2) Will the Gungian/Naboo symbiotic relationship be forged to defeat the TF? Yes it will with Jar Jar Binks help, a character that started out as an outcast becomes the most impotant catalyst for its survival.

    3) Chosen One Anakin is discovered...can Qui Gon convice the Jedi Council that he should be trained? Yes, but at the cost of his own life. And the future of his Padawan

    4)Will the Jedi find out about the Sith and defeat their plans? Yes and no. They discover one Sith-but his plans, his motivations and his connection die with him. The Jedi have not a clue that the Sith succeded in its mission...to gain the chancellorship. And as an added bonus...a powereful Jedi has been found. One that may be easy to mold into the ultimate Sith. They have lost the battle, but they won the war. The Devil is in their mist, and the heros are celebrating.

    However the quesion, statment that is made in the Phantom Menance begins here as well. Will Anakin be able to control his fear to fufill his role as the Chosen One? The asnwer to that...begins to be answered at Qui-Gons funeral. Anakin misses his mother, and his father-figure/mentor, the one he trusts is dead.

    A boy, who acted without reward, without a thought for the consequences for himself, turns to Obi-Wan and asks "What will happen to me now?" His only concern is himself now.

    It isn't unti the compas
  18. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Lukecash,that was a good post and when you describe it like that, "Star Wars: The Phantom Menace" does sound like a good SW flick. It becomes entirely different when you experience the film firsthand, when you see the bad decisions, the mildly irritating cuts here and there, when you hear the uninspired soundtrack, when you realize Lucas had thrown 80% of the backstory *established* in the OT and twisted it to the extent where credibility is lost etc.

    Jada.
  19. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Patrick,

    Maybe so- it only occurred to me yesterday. But I still like it.

    :D


    SomeRandomNerd goes back to trying to find the burger in his soup...

    8-}
  20. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>when you realize Lucas had thrown 80% of the backstory *established* in the OT and twisted it to the extent where credibility is lost etc.

    It's not as if he'd ever done that before, is it?

    "I am your Father"
    "She is your sister"

    etc.

    (Mind you, nothing in TPM actively CONTRADICTS the OT.)
  21. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    "How can anyone argue that TPM is good because of what will happen in Episodes II and III? These people haven't even seen Episodes II and III yet! "

    How can anyone argue that TPM is bad without seeing Episode II or III yet?
    There are two sides to every argument. We all sense that, why can't you?
  22. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "The TF are merely greedy and Gunray thinks he is getting help in making the TF more economically successful by teaming up with Sidious. He does NOT think they'll be invading. Sid says to accelerate their plans, but Gunray replies "My lord ... is that legal?", clearly thinking that the threat of an invasion was the furthest this thing would ever go."


    They didn't expect to invade Naboo? Then what's with the invasion army all set and ready to deploy? They didn't just happen to have a primed-and-ready invasion army tucked away in the holds of the blockade fleet, did they? If the Neimoidians truly believed that they were just there to blockade the planet and call their bluff, they wouldn't have gone to the trouble (and expense... these are money-grubbers, remember) of assembling a full-scale invasion army.

    They fully expected to invade Naboo. At least this is what Lucas indicates in the movie.

    Now then, I have no problem believing that Sideous sold them a lemon and made them believe that their occupation of Naboo would benefit them. Natural resources may have been the draw, slave labor... who knows? But whether Palpatine planted the idea or the TF thought it up themselves, I see no indication that they weren't aiming all along to occupy the planet.

    Here's another question... did the TF ACTUALLY have the amount of power in the Senate that we're told they did. If so, how is it that they couldn't use their bought-and-paid for Senate leaders to resolve the tax issue?
  23. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "Patrick, I am not sure where you get the idea TPM is a burger with no beef, but that is hardly the case. It clocks in at just over 2 hours just like the other episodes. It Introduces a bevy of new planets, aliens and vehicles, more than has been introduced in any SW film so far."


    It's got a really big bun, and it has more lettuce, ketchup, and mustard than any other burger served to us so far.

    (Gimme two!) ;)

  24. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Here's another question... did the TF ACTUALLY have the amount of power in the Senate that we're told they did. If so, how is it that they couldn't use their bought-and-paid for Senate leaders to resolve the tax issue?

    Personally, I don't think they did. My take on it is that the "buerocrats on the payroll of the Trade Federation" line was part of Palpatine's manipulation of Amidala- he was perfectly aware of the procedures, but he decided to twist what he told Amidala about them.

    I'm not sure if the TF guys in the Senate really knew what was going on on Naboo either...
  25. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    The thing is, though... was the Trade Federation vast enough that the creation/purchase of a massive droid invasion army, complete with tanks and troop carriers and starfighter droids, would have gone unnoticed within the Federation's own organization?

    Unless the Viceroy was part of some rogue element of the TF, it stands to reason that an expenditure that massive would have not gone unnoticed by the rest of the TF leaders, including the Senators.
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