Plot holes? The final chapter.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by OrlandoT, Apr 7, 2002.

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  1. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    Being completely spoiled for Episode II, I find this all very funny. Does one sit and ruminate over supposed "plot holes" after reading the first 100 pages of a novel?

    Episode I was not the orchestra warming up, folks . . it was the Overture. It was Episode I, part ONE of a SIX part story. Attack of the Clones will build on the foundations laid down in The Phantom Menace, and many (but not all, there IS one more Episode left) of your questions will be answered.

    Patience.

    -Otis
  2. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    "I just wish the people who refuse to see the point would quit trying."


    I feel the same way about your arguments, Go-Mer.
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I guess you are right, I don't see the point to being let down. But then again, I am not trying to.
  4. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    You can't decide when you're being let down.
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  6. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    "You can't decide when you're being let down."

    Sure you can. Some Star Wars "fans" have made it their primary pasttime since 1999.

    -Otis
  7. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>> don't know. But wasting your time conversing with the slobbering idiot leader of an indigenious race, being attacked by monster after monster after monster ( even losing power in the process), and relying on the "navigational" skills of Jar-Jar Binks, the trip with the sub through the core couldn't have been that much help. I'm sure they lost a lot of time with all that. Besides, they arrived sort of late, anyway.<<<<<


    >>>Read my posts. They could stop outside the city, thus allowing Jar-Jar to find his own way back to the woods. <<<<

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a great example of a contradiction.
    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a great example of a contradiction. First we hear about the complaint of the heroes allegedly loosing too much time, then he insists that the Jedi take time off to leave Jar-Jar outside. (Never mind that he doesn't have an idea of how far it would have taken our heroes if they went on foot across Naboo)


  8. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4


    <<Torgo;
    The reason why Qui-Gon took Jar Jar with him on Tatooine was the same reason why he ultimately agreed to bringing Padme with him --- himself, Jar Jar, Padme and R2 is a group of random strangers peculiar enough not to raise any eyebrows in a place like Mos Espa. They seem to be a weird family or something like that. Jinn alone with an R2 unit would be more suspicious-looking, thought the Jedi Master. >>

    How does Jar-Jar "blend in so nobody notices them"? I mean, he steals a freaking frog for crying out loud. The only reason he didn't get into further trouble was "the will of the script".
  9. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4

    >>>This is, IMHO, along the same lines as how some folks insist that the only possible way to show Anakin as starting off good and innocent is to show him at age nine going "Oops!" and "Yippee!", when we have the perfect example of Luke being portrayed as a kind-hearted innocent at age 19 or whatever he was in ANH.<<<<

    Yet it would be redundant to have Luke clone in TPM. It's already been done, why do it again?

    >>> Look at what we saw by the end of ROTJ... Palpatine had played the exact game you insist could not be played on anyone but a bunch of cowering feebs, but he'd played it on Darth Vader himself.

    Try wrapping your mind around THAT one for a sec'.<<<<<

    >>Now then, with that in mind, are you telling me that had the TF been portrayed as a bunch of ruthless (but greedy) space pirates who were dealing with Palpatine in order to gain even MORE power and wealth, and he was pulling the same sort of backstabbing trickery on them that he ultimately played on Vader, that this somehow wouldn't have been believable? IMHO it would not only have been right up Palpatine's alley, but it would have allowed for an adversary who was a little more interesting than the tapioca-esque Neimoidians.<<<<

    Yes, it would work. There's nothing wrong with that idea. There's also nothing wrong with the idea that not all the pawns that Palpy utilizes are of Vader's caliber.

    >>>Hmmm...lets see. Okay, the villian isn't a hit your-head with-a-hammer kinda guy, with a gigantic weapon of mass destruction.

    He's a guy who smiles, gives fatherly advice to the heroes, while using others pawns and muscle in a mind game that has the people HANDING him the reins of power.

    And the movie is called The Phantom Menance.<<<

    Yes, well said LukeCash. This is why many of us thought it worked.

  10. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<Another point is that this movie is not supposed to show great conflicts on the surface. This is "before the dark times...before the Empire", and I would have been disappointed had Lucas not shown what the heck Kenobi was talking about there. You'll get your conflicts over those next 4-5 hours of film.¨

    >>

    Then why do we get the Jedi as basically being dumbed down into as comic book heroes, whose source of power is the Force, much as the Red Sun of Krypton is the source of power for Superman? In the OT, the Jedi were warriors, but there was also a strong mystical/spiritual element to them, somethin that wasn't in TPM. They even take blood tests and rave on and on about midichlorian counts to find other heroes, instead of feeling the power of the force within them. The argument for this is that the Jedi were in DECLINE, but the problem with this is: shouldn't we get a chance to see more of the mystical/spiritual jedi, only in greater numbers, especially if this is supposed to be the galaxy's GOLDEN AGE? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of a conflict-less Star Wars? Not to mention the fact that this would actually make us feel upset and look at Vader as a villian when he ultimately ends up killing them? Now, I really don't care because they basically weren't all that great to begin with.
  11. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<Perhaps because of pre-concieved notions of what the begining was, you have not allowed yourself to let the storyteller tell the tale. >>

    Yeah, like all those pre-concieved notions that we implied from crazy things like, oh I don't know?????DIALOGUE FROM THE OT! Of course, since much of that dialogue was said about someone who LIED ABOUT ONE TRAMAUTIC AND PAINFUL facet of his life, we should assume that he was lying about every other single damn thing as well. As we all know, lying about one thing means you must be lying about everything, but stealing frogs from innocent shopkeepers means you are a good-hearted and well-meaning person, as does taking nine-year old kids into occupied planets. Strange morality.

  12. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Then why do we get the Jedi as basically being dumbed down into as comic book heroes, whose source of power is the force, much as the Red Sun of Krypton is the source of power for Superman? <<<<

    First off, the Red Sun of Kripton is not the source of Superman's powers, our yellow sun is. Secondly, remember this line from the OT?

    "The Force is what gives the Jedi it's power."

    >>>In the OT, the Jedi were warriors, but there was also a strong mystical/spiritual element to them, somethin that wasn't in TPM.<<<<<

    Nevermind all the talk about the living force et al.

    >>> They even take blood tests and rave on and on about midichlorian counts to find other heroes, instead of feeling the power of the force within them.<<<<

    So, you don't think that Qui-Gon suspected Anakin's potential before the test? You think he goes around testing everyone he meets?

    Conflict less? did I watch a different film? Just becaus there wasn't a powerful weapon like the death star does not mean there wasn't any conflct.
  13. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<>>>> don't know. But wasting your time conversing with the slobbering idiot leader of an indigenious race, being attacked by monster after monster after monster ( even losing power in the process), and relying on the "navigational" skills of Jar-Jar Binks, the trip with the sub through the core couldn't have been that much help. I'm sure they lost a lot of time with all that. Besides, they arrived sort of late, anyway.<<<<<


    >>>Read my posts. They could stop outside the city, thus allowing Jar-Jar to find his own way back to the woods. <<<<

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a great example of a contradiction.
    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a great example of a contradiction. First we hear about the complaint of the heroes allegedly loosing too much time, then he insists that the Jedi take time off to leave Jar-Jar outside. (Never mind that he doesn't have an idea of how far it would have taken our heroes if they went on foot across Naboo) >>

    How much time would it take to surface at an earlier point along the river and simply let Jar-Jar get off, then continue using the sub to get on their way? And besides, you said that the Jedi couldn't very well leave Jar-Jar in an occupied city? Funny, they seemed to have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM taking a nine-year old kid to the exact same city.

    Before you start spouting that nonsense how Qui-Gon only brought Anakin there because he knew he couldn't be harmed because he hadn't yet brought balance to the force, that logic is very very flawed. Then again, maybe I'm failing to realize the point. After all, we know Anakin doesn't get hurt at all in Episodes II and III, despite the fact that he hasn't brought balance to the force then, either.
  14. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    >>>>Then why do we get the Jedi as basically being dumbed down into as comic book heroes, whose source of power is the force, much as the Red Sun of Krypton is the source of power for Superman? <<<<

    First off, the Red Sun of Kripton is not the source of Superman's powers, our yellow sun is


    Whatever. You knew what I meant.

    Secondly, remember this line from the OT?

    "The Force is what gives the Jedi it's power."

    Did I ever say it wasn't? My problem with it is that in TPM, that's ALL it is. Nothing more.

    >>>In the OT, the Jedi were warriors, but there was also a strong mystical/spiritual element to them, somethin that wasn't in TPM.<<<<<

    Nevermind all the talk about the living force et al.


    Care to show me some FILM evidence telling me what the bloody heck the living force is? No, interviews from Lucas don't count. For all we know from the movie, the living force might give the Jedi certain powers, while the normal force gives them other powers (it's never referrred to as the "unifying" force in the movie. Also, Qui-Gon is the one always talking about prophecies and the "will of the Force". So why the hell does everyone think that he is a "strong adovcate of the living Force" as opposed to the "unifying force".)

    >>> They even take blood tests and rave on and on about midichlorian counts to find other heroes, instead of feeling the power of the force within them.<<<<

    So, you don't think that Qui-Gon suspected Anakin's potential before the test? You think he goes around testing everyone he meets?


    Doesn't matter whether he knew or not. The sole fact that he feels the need to take a blood test for it says something.

    [i[Conflict less? did I watch a different film? Just becaus there wasn't a powerful weapon like the death star does not mean there wasn't any conflct.


    There was conflict, but it was duller than a butter knife (with the exception of a lightsaber duel at the end, and even that was flawed and a tad uninvolving in the sense that there isn't really any emotion until the end) , to the point where it seems like there is hardly any at all.
  15. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Patrick;

    I'm sorry to say this --- I have always considered you to be of great intelligence and a very clear mind ... but your last post (responding to my last post) was very disappointing. Please tell me that was a temporary loss of focus. I'm not going to get back at you in the same spirit.

    Stay on target, stay on target... [face_plain]
  16. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    One thing I don't think people understood is why the battle droids don;'t have autnomous personalities like R2 and 3po. Why do they have to be controlled with a droid control ship?

    EU says that this is to preven the droids from gaining personalities and turning on their masters,and they shut off when they don't recieve a signal from their control ship to prevent them from being turned on their masters or being stolen.

    Couldn't they have gone over some of those factoids during the battle briefing? Though even the EU explanation doesn't make complete sense since the droids could'be undergone memory wipes to prevent them from developing personalities.Though them turning off to prevent them from being used on their masters makes sense.

    "The TF has designed their droids to shut off should they stop recieving the master control signal. This feature was designed as a safeguard to prevent them from being used on their masters"

    I heard alot of confused noises in that theatre. I know my teacher was wondering why they were all controlled by a single signal.

    One of the first rules of theatre is"Always assume your audience is composed emntirely of morons"
  17. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Care to show me some FILM evidence telling me what the bloody heck the living force is? No, interviews from Lucas don't count. For all we know from the movie, the living force might give the Jedi certain powers, while the normal force gives them other powers (it's never referrred to as the "unifying" force in the movie. Also, Qui-Gon is the one always talking about prophecies and the "will of the Force". So why the hell does everyone think that he is a "strong adovcate of the living Force" as opposed to the "unifying force".)<<<<

    Make up your mind. First you say that TPM took away from the mystery of the force, then when something new is introduced, you complain because it doesn't elaborate enough on it.

    I find it amazing that you insist I try to explain something using only the film as evidence when your example is taken from EU sources.

    >>>>There was conflict, but it was duller than a butter knife (with the exception of a lightsaber duel at the end, and even that was flawed and a tad uninvolving in the sense that there isn't really any emotion until the end) , to the point where it seems like there is hardly any at all. <<<

    If that's what you think, I won't argue. You were probably so worked up over Jar-jar that you missed the cool conflicts. However, this does negate certain folk?s complaint that TPM was all action and no story.


    >>>>How much time would it take to surface at an earlier point along the river and simply let Jar-Jar get off, then continue using the sub to get on their way? And besides, you said that the Jedi couldn't very well leave Jar-Jar in an occupied city? Funny, they seemed to have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM taking a nine-year old kid to the exact same city. <<<<

    Yup. But they didn't leave him there, did they?

    >>>Before you start spouting that nonsense how Qui-Gon only brought Anakin there because he knew he couldn't be harmed because he hadn't yet brought balance to the force, that logic is very very flawed. Then again, maybe I'm failing to realize the point. After all, we know Anakin doesn't get hurt at all in Episodes II and III, despite the fact that he hasn't brought balance to the force then, either. <<<

    And your ignoring Qui-Gon's recklessness and his belief that he could keep him safe.
  18. Abnoonoo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Plot hole

    1. The gungans hiding in Secret place- how the hell did they mobilise so quickly, especially with those huge dinosaur things... wouldn't the TF have done an electrical reading to determine where their temporary base was ( similar to the basic one Luke had in his X-wing )

    2. Why did the TF ships deploy so far away from the Naboo base? ie. if the jedi had to travel such a long way as to need to go through the planet core and they landed near to the gungans city, wouldn't it be more logical to land closer to the site you would be beseiging?

    3 - not a plot hole, just a piss me off thing - I didn't like the way the TF ships released their troops when facing the Gungans for battle- anyone would be able to suggest that the troopers would be best released from the back side ( opposite the main cannon ) - so that the main cannon could provide cover fire and / or it would bve safer to deploy under fire... not to mention the corny control ship.

  19. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>1. The gungans hiding in Secret place- how the hell did they mobilise so quickly, especially with those huge dinosaur things... wouldn't the TF have done an electrical reading to determine where their temporary base was ( similar to the basic one Luke had in his X-wing )<<<<<

    Why is this a plot hole? Was there anywhere in the movie where it was stated that the Gungans coldn't do this without being found? They are a military society remember? You don't think that a military society is not going to have an evacuation plan ready? What would the TF search for? Massive lifeforms?

    >>>2. Why did the TF ships deploy so far away from the Naboo base? ie. if the jedi had to travel such a long way as to need to go through the planet core and they landed near to the gungans city, wouldn't it be more logical to land closer to the site you would be beseiging?<<<<


    In case there was resistence. They landed on the far side, prepared the army and marched in. I don't consider the TF military geniuses, but in this case, they were right.



    >>>3 - not a plot hole, just a piss me off thing - I didn't like the way the TF ships released their troops when facing the Gungans for battle- anyone would be able to suggest that the troopers would be best released from the back side ( opposite the main cannon ) - so that the main cannon could provide cover fire and / or it would bve safer to deploy under fire... not to mention the corny control ship. <<<

    My guess is, you'll hate Ep.2 as well. When little things like these piss you off, it's a wonder if you even liked the OT.

  20. Abnoonoo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    In Luke's X-wing on his first approach to Dagobah, his pissy little x-wing scanners detected no technology and massive lifeform readings, How could the TF not have detected technology of Gungans?

    If the TF landed away in case of resistance, then why did they deploy their troops so close to the enemy wrt the Gungans ?


  21. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<>>>>Care to show me some FILM evidence telling me what the bloody heck the living force is? No, interviews from Lucas don't count. For all we know from the movie, the living force might give the Jedi certain powers, while the normal force gives them other powers (it's never referrred to as the "unifying" force in the movie. Also, Qui-Gon is the one always talking about prophecies and the "will of the Force". So why the hell does everyone think that he is a "strong adovcate of the living Force" as opposed to the "unifying force".)<<<<

    Make up your mind. First you say that TPM took away from the mystery of the force, then when something new is introduced, you complain because it doesn't elaborate enough on it.


    OK, what you said just didn't make any sense. If you elaborate on the force at all, you take away the mystery. Huh? My complaint was that in TPM, the Jedi were dumbed down into superheroes, and the force was merely where they got there powers from. There was more to the Jedi than that in the OT, but TPM didn't really show that. Some introduction. I thought that because there were more Jedi in TPM, there would be a stronger spiritual element as well. Silly me.

    >>>>There was conflict, but it was duller than a butter knife (with the exception of a lightsaber duel at the end, and even that was flawed and a tad uninvolving in the sense that there isn't really any emotion until the end) , to the point where it seems like there is hardly any at all. <<<

    If that's what you think, I won't argue. You were probably so worked up over Jar-jar that you missed the cool conflicts. However, this does negate certain folk?s complaint that TPM was all action and no story.


    That last statement I will take back. It was late and I wasn't concentrating entirely. I actually think action is one of TPM's strong points. I think what would be a much more accurate statement t is that there really isn't a whole lot of emotional conflict, but I failed to make that clear in my post. Sorry.


    >>>>How much time would it take to surface at an earlier point along the river and simply let Jar-Jar get off, then continue using the sub to get on their way? And besides, you said that the Jedi couldn't very well leave Jar-Jar in an occupied city? Funny, they seemed to have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM taking a nine-year old kid to the exact same city. <<<<

    Yup. But they didn't leave him there, did they?


    Yes they did. They stuck him in the cockpit. For all they knew, he wasn't going to leave the hangar

    >>>Before you start spouting that nonsense how Qui-Gon only brought Anakin there because he knew he couldn't be harmed because he hadn't yet brought balance to the force, that logic is very very flawed. Then again, maybe I'm failing to realize the point. After all, we know Anakin doesn't get hurt at all in Episodes II and III, despite the fact that he hasn't brought balance to the force then, either. <<<

    And your ignoring Qui-Gon's recklessness and his belief that he could keep him safe.


    Which he does a good job of doing by leaving him in the hangar and turning his back to him. I thought the reason he took Jar-JAr with was because he was responsible for him. By that logic, he should have also have taken Anakin into the hangar, where he could protect him, because he is also responsible for Anakin. And after all, isn't he a Chosen One?
  22. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>In Luke's X-wing on his first approach to Dagobah, his pissy little x-wing scanners detected no technology and massive lifeform readings, How could the TF not have detected technology of Gungans?<<<<

    What technology?

    >>>>OK, what you said just didn't make any sense. If you elaborate on the force at all, you take away the mystery. Huh? My complaint was that in TPM, the Jedi were dumbed down into superheroes, and the force was merely where they got there powers from. There was more to the Jedi than that in the OT, but TPM didn't really show that. Some introduction. I thought that because there were more Jedi in TPM, there would be a stronger spiritual element as well. Silly me.<<<<<


    So, let me see if I get your point? Did TPM undo all the mystical stuff from the OT? Is this what you're impying?

    >>>If the TF landed away in case of resistance, then why did they deploy their troops so close to the enemy wrt the Gungans ?<<<<

    I'm no expert in warfare, so bear with me. Think about the invasion of Normandy. The Allies didn't just take off for the invasion. They set up in the Atlantic first and then when they were ready they attacked. It's the same in this case.

    As to the final battle. The TF were defending their turf, not invading.

  23. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    [i[<<>>>>In Luke's X-wing on his first approach to Dagobah, his pissy little x-wing scanners detected no technology and massive lifeform readings, How could the TF not have detected technology of Gungans?<<<<

    What technology? [/i]

    Uh, those shield generators and electro balls they have. Not to mention the submarines and bubble cities. Don't try and say that that isn't technology. Hell, the submarine even has wires just like Republic technology. We see Obi-Wan reconnect them at one point.

    >>>>OK, what you said just didn't make any sense. If you elaborate on the force at all, you take away the mystery. Huh? My complaint was that in TPM, the Jedi were dumbed down into superheroes, and the force was merely where they got there powers from. There was more to the Jedi than that in the OT, but TPM didn't really show that. Some introduction. I thought that because there were more Jedi in TPM, there would be a stronger spiritual element as well. Silly me.<<<<<


    So, let me see if I get your point? Did TPM undo all the mystical stuff from the OT? Is this what you're impying?


    No, but they dumbed it down, to a super-boring, super mundane thing. I would think that because there are more Jedi, and TPM is supposed to be set in the galaxy's Golden Age, the Force would be treated as as having an even more spiritual aspect to it than it did in the OT. Boy was I proved wrong.

  24. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Care to show me some FILM evidence telling me what the bloody heck the living force is?

    So it wasn't explained enough?

    Care to show me some FILM evidence for what the bloody heck the Dark Side of the Force is?

    Is that a big problem with the OT, or is this another case of double standards for the new films?

    >>>>In Luke's X-wing on his first approach to Dagobah, his pissy little x-wing scanners detected no technology and massive lifeform readings, How could the TF not have detected technology of Gungans?

    Because it's organic.

    >>>>If the TF landed away in case of resistance, then why did they deploy their troops so close to the enemy wrt the Gungans?

    :confused:

    Are you saying that the battle droids should have marched out to battle?
  25. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Adali, what exactly were you so dissapointed with in my last response to you? The fact that I don't agree that the only way Palpatine's manipulation of the TF is believable is if they're portrayed as ineffectual simps? The fact that I point out that Palpatine played the same sort of manipulation game with a strong villain like Vader and we all bought it with no problem whatsoever? I'm not saying that the TF needed to be as ruthless and dangerous as Vader, but they also didn't need to be alien versions of Niles from "Frasier" either...

    (Or was there another post of mine that you were referring to as being disappointing?)
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