Plot holes? The final chapter.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by OrlandoT, Apr 7, 2002.

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  1. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Pat;

    Sorry, but I always get worked up when people say stuff like "try wrapping your mind around THAT one for a sec". I'm not talking to you, so I don't hear the tone of it - so I guess I just find it quite patronizing, like you telling me that I'm not very bright here. That's just how it felt first time I read it. I'm human, you know.

    Other than that I found it unfair that you likened my claim about how the pathetic TF was quite proper for the movie's plot to people who supposedly claim the words "Oops!" and "Yippie" were needed to define Anakin's character. My opinion was and is that the plot of TPM does not have some great force openly defying another, it's all quite low-key and political and a matter of how you read the laws of the Republic, etc. Imo, this is perfect. There is a time of relative peace, and the conflicts are bubbling underneath the surface. Even Palpatine/Sidious is someone who doesn't show off his real powers, but rather persuades and bribes and tricks and maneuvers his way into a position of power. When we reach the time of the OT, Palpatine is only living for the pure exercise of absolute power. He has no opposition, like he has plenty of in TPM. That situation called for a different approach, which is the genius of this character. This way we'll have a real character arc, as well as a change in the way the conflicts are handled or even perceived throughout the saga, which I think is very interesting to witness. The pathetic TF fits very well into all of this. Willing and cowardly aides to the Sith who plots to take over the galaxy. He doesn't have to use an iron fist with them in the way he does with the Rebellion or even Darth Vader.

    I just thought this was worth more than "Oops!" and "Yippie!", but I really meant no offense.
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Ooops" and "Yippie" WERE needed to portray Anakin.
  3. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "Sorry, but I always get worked up when people say stuff like "try wrapping your mind around THAT one for a sec". I'm not talking to you, so I don't hear the tone of it - so I guess I just find it quite patronizing, like you telling me that I'm not very bright here. That's just how it felt first time I read it. I'm human, you know."


    OY!!! Now I see what you were ticked about! No, no... I didn't mean it like that at all. Honest. I was just being verbose... I know you're not a dimwit and I wasn't aiming to imply that I thought you were. I'm really sorry it looked that way. It definitely was not my intention.

    As for the "Oops!"/"Yippee!" thing, what I meant by that was that I don't find that it was necessary to take the teeth out of the TF the way Lucas did in order to make Palpatine's manipulation of them believable, any more than "Oops" and "Yippee" were necessary to show that Anakin was a good-hearted person in the beginning (Luke was shown to have started off the same way, and Lucas managed to pull that off without making him a Dennis the Menace clone as he did with Anakin.)

    I guess the point there was that Lucas didn't need to go to the extremes he did in either case (a boring, ineffectual villain to justify the manipulation... a caricature of a small child in order to illustrate "goodness"... etc.) Many people, however, insist that Lucas couldn't possibly have done either of these any other way, which is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. There are MANY ways to do a given thing with a character when you're writing your own story. In the cases of the TF and Anakin issues, there were many other ways do get from point A to point B without going to the extremes that Lucas did.

    That was all I was getting at.
  4. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Patrick;

    Alright, we're cool! Didn't mean to overreact, either. :)

    There's not much I disagree with in your last post, except that I'm not sure that Lucas made the TF lousy villains in order to justify that Sidious could control them. I think it's more a case of doing what the original ANH novel already set up - having the future Emperor paving the way for his domination by taking the chips that were already on the table and playing it all the way he needed it, without having to show off his immense dark side powers. I just don't see what use a federation of truly intimidating villains would have had, and I think it would have made one chip too many on the table when conflicts escalate in EpII and III. I personally like the way Palpatine uses the strong (Amidala) and the weak (TF) for whatever purpose he has.

    Not that I disagree that we could have gotten meatier villains. By all means, I completely understand that point.
  5. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Cool. I got the feeling we weren't TOO far off on this one. (Glad we cleared up that little misunderstanding too.)

    What I think we would have gained from a stronger villain in the TF is simply a greater sense of danger for the people of Naboo and for the main characters, which I just didn't feel with the Neimoidians as Lucas protrayed them in TPM.

    I'm not saying that they needed to out-do the Empire. IMHO they really couldn't have. What the Empire had that the TF would not have had was, of course, a governmental stranglehold on the whole galaxy. Plus, Vader had a personal connection with Luke even back in '77 when we just thought he'd killed Luke's father. These factors automatically allow the Empire to trump the TF as an adversary, no matter how dangerous the TF is portrayed as being.

    My feeling has always been that had the TF been portrayed as pirates-gone-legitimate (as "The Art Of TPM" seems to indicate they were originally intended to be) who thought THEY were the ones manipulating the old wizard in the cloak, and who ENJOYED the opportunity to sate their greed by invading Naboo (as opposed to just timidly doing it under orders from their master) it would have at least given some much-needed "oomph" to the TF villains.

    And it would have done so without diminishing the eventual threat posed by the Empire, because in the end they would still have been penny-ante criminals next to the forces of the Empire.

    Basically, threat-wise, I'm thinking of a point that's perhaps half-way between the Neimoidians as they were in TPM and the Empire itself. (Hell, even a point a THIRD of the way between the two would have been a marked improvement...)

    But at least it sounds like we'll get a better villain in AOTC, so I'm hoping that the PT picks up steam for me at that point.
  6. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>>Uh, those shield generators and electro balls they have. Not to mention the submarines and bubble cities. Don't try and say that that isn't technology. Hell, the submarine even has wires just like Republic technology. We see Obi-Wan reconnect them at one point. <<<<

    Do you think the Gungans needed to have this equiptment on to move?


    >>>>No, but they dumbed it down, to a super-boring, super mundane thing. I would think that because there are more Jedi, and TPM is supposed to be set in the galaxy's Golden Age, the Force would be treated as as having an even more spiritual aspect to it than it did in the OT. Boy was I proved wrong.<<<<

    How is getting a new perspective on the force dumbing it down? We know all the spiritual stuff, why not delve into the science of it?
  7. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Personally, though I appreciate the fact that Lucas based them on mitochondria and all, I found the midichlorian thing to basically just be the SW equivalent of Star Trek technobabble. Unless there's some MAJOR plot twist on the horizon which hinges upon the midis, I can't say that I feel that they add a great deal to the saga, and in many ways they detract from it by providing a material gimmick to a spiritual energy force.
  8. JediAreJustHippies Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2001
    star 1
    >>>Unless there's some MAJOR plot twist on the horizon which hinges upon the midis, I can't say that I feel that they add a great deal to the saga, and in many ways they detract from it by providing a material gimmick to a spiritual energy force.<<<

    If I had to choose the single worst idea presented by TPM, the midis would be it, hands-down. Lucas should have had Qui-Gon say "Oh, & there's no Santa Claus, either." while he was at it. Terrible, terrible idea.
  9. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    There's no WHAT?? Okay, time out... no Santa Claus?? Why, that must be the most vicious rumor I've heard in years! You should oughtta be ashamed of yourself!!

    (Gave me a choo-choo last year and everything!)
  10. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    If I had to choose the single worst idea presented by TPM, the midis would be it, hands-down. Lucas should have had Qui-Gon say "Oh, & there's no Santa Claus, either." while he was at it. Terrible, terrible idea.


    PPOR on the Santa Clause remark mn,you've upset my friend Patrick :mad:


    :D

    Personally, the miclorians are a good idea-it is a scientific way to idientify force users or potential force users wihtout the percieption changing tint of emotions.

    However-if he doesn't expand on this idea-or perhaps even discreditit it, then it becomes a one shot plot device.
  11. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "Personally, the miclorians are a good idea-it is a scientific way to idientify force users or potential force users wihtout the percieption changing tint of emotions."


    But, aren't Jedi supposed to have their emotions under control? I thought that was a fairly central tenet of the order.
  12. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Speaking of plot holes, I remember someone posting in another thread (that has since been locked) that the Jedi only using lightsabers was a mistake because they couldn't hope to protect the Old Republic with such a short range weapon. Personally, I've never pictured true Jedi using blasters (Luke was only a Jedi in training, after all). But if anyone does doubt the effectiveness of sabers, I suggest you play the TPM game or Jedi Power Battles, see how far you get using a blaster :)
    The lightsaber is the perfect weapon because it's both offensive and defensive. If you're well-trained enough, you can shield yourself from blasts AND deflect them back at your enemies (as we saw Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do in TPM). You can't do that with a blaster. That was one of the reasons I loved the portrayal of the Jedi in TPM.
    Anyone care to argue?
  13. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Patrick; I'm gonna say something scary now ... I agree with your last post about the TF! [face_shocked]
    Hehe, sometimes I think we agree more than we admit on these boards. :)

    As for the midis; Hmmm, I personally don't think they're as important as they're cracked up to be. Both the TPM novel and CoD state that the level of midis in your blood is just one of many ways of testing your potential in the Force, and even Qui-Gon admits in the movie that having a high level doesn't automatically mean anything. The Council are not concerned with midis when testing Anakin, they are more into looking into the Force and seeing through the boy, and so on. And even the original ANH novel states that the Jedi had once attempted to explain the Force scientifically, but failed. All in all, I don't think it's important to anything but your ability to tap into the Force, which is something you can learn anyway. Kenobi didn't have an impressive count, yet he defeated a Sith Lord in combat and the Sith Empire through his guidance of Luke Skywalker. I'd be surprised if the midis will be brought up too much in the next films.

    It was just an idea Lucas had for how the Force could speak more strongly to some than to others, and a way of explaining why potential in the Force could be inherited in the OT. I could have done without it, but it doesn't screw anything up for me as long as it doesn't explain THE Force - only a way of communication. The midis doesn't tell you any more about the nature of the Force than the phone tells you about who's calling, really.

    And hey! I just thought of something I personally thought was a plot hole for a long time! ---

    When Amidala comes to Coruscant, she surprises Palpatine. The latter then produces and alternative plan. He originally intended for a controversial treaty to help him tumble Valorum and be elected, but with Amidala's arrival he sees the possibility for a quicker route to the chair. He gets her to call for a vote of no confidence - a simple but brilliant move, like it could have been out of his dreams. I used to wonder why then he would (as Sidious) continue to hunt the Queen, even send Maul to Naboo, and still go after the treaty - when his goal is already reached. After a while it became obvious to me that IF he had suddenly stepped back and Sidious had disappeared and the TF had been left dangling...well, someone would surely have put 2 and 2 together - the Jedi, I guess - and asked themselves "how come the Sith menace disappeared and the Queen were no longer hunted once Valorum was out of office...?". Palpatine had to see the original scheme through just for the sake of keeping the Jedi and his political opposition off the track. The purposes of the TF and the elusive Sith remain a mystery as long as everything is carried through and things settle down again. He probably didn't think that Maul would be destroyed, but after the events on Naboo and the election he would need to let things slip and concentrate on being Chancellor for a while anyway. If he kept going he would have been more likely to fall, as he's still building his power base at this point. He's using the virtue of Darth Bane - patience!

    Did anyone else get confused by this, or was it just me...? [face_blush]
  14. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Personally, I've never pictured true Jedi using blasters (Luke was only a Jedi in training, after all).<<<<

    What's cool, is that in RotJ he only carries a Lightsaber.
  15. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    He does try to grab a blaster from a guard, though.
    But, yeah Jedi Power Battles is cool :)
  16. BenQ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2001
    star 2
    I think it was Nick Gillard (sp?) who said "If you're going to use a sword when everyone else uses lasers you had better be really good at it."
  17. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "Patrick; I'm gonna say something scary now ... I agree with your last post about the TF! Hehe, sometimes I think we agree more than we admit on these boards."


    Gad-ZOOKS!!!! ;^)

    On the issue of Palpatine's reason for continuing with the efforts to get the treaty signed, I have long thought that this was probably to establish the TF as a legitimate military threat to the Republic, thus paving the way for Palpatine's eventual declaration of martial law and the formation of the Empire. After all, his election as Chancellor was only the first step in his overall plan.

    I also wonder exactly how much his plan really did change when the Queen showed up on Coruscant. I realize that he suggested to her that she call for a no-confidence vote, but I've always gotten the feeling that he, as Naboo's representative, would eventually have done that anyway once the treaty was signed and it was apparent that Valorum had proven himself unable to take the bull by the horns and prevent the occupation of a peaceful planet by a military power.

    In this case, Palpatine's election as chancellor would have coincided with a clear need for the formation of a Republic military to prevent such invasions from taking place in the future, because there would already be a signed treaty and the occupation would be irreversable, and the formation of a Republic military wouldn't have taken another decade.

    As it was, the Queen showed up and he figured he could at least use her to accelerate the first part of his plan, as a no-confidence vote from a planetary leader would likely carry even more weight than that of a planetary senator. Her presence in the Senate and the subsequent shouting down engaged in by the TF reps and their Malastairian allies created the basis for the sympathy vote that Palpatine had expected to not be forthcoming until the treaty was signed and the inevitable furor over its ratification ensued. Then the Queen went back to Naboo and Palpatine figured he'd get the treaty signed anyway and get his excuse to start moving towards establishment of a defensive Republic military.

    He certainly was wearing his game face when he arrived on Naboo after the TF was defeated... the military threat he'd hoped to use to advance his own hawkish agenda had been vanquished by two Jedi and a planetary resistence movement. Naboo took care of itself, and that was NOT what Palpatine had planned. He wanted the planet to fall to the TF so he could convince the Senate to support the notion that small planets couldn't defend themselves against the TF, and a Republic military was therefore needed.

    At least, that's my read on it.
  18. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    Patric

    But, aren't Jedi supposed to have their emotions under control? I thought that was a fairly central tenet of the order.


    Ah yes, control is important, but that doesn't mean they can rely on thoses emotions.

    Case in point: Obi-wan, padawan, feels Sidious influence while his master, Qui-gon, doesn't feel a thing.

    In ROTJ: Obi-wan says to Luke: Your feelings do you credit, but bury them deep or they can be made to serve the Eperor.

    Also The Emperor doesn't feel Lukes landing on the moon of endor. Vader did because of his bond.

    Emperor: "Strange that I have not? Are your feelings absolutely clear on this?"

    Thus just because you have your emotions under control, doesn't mean that your perceptions aren't tainted by them.
  19. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Half of the examples you use there, though, are characters who have embraced the volatility of the Dark Side. Not the best examples, I'd say.

    As for Obi Wan's "bad feeling", and Qui Gon's subsequent remark "I don't sense anything"... perhaps that's because what Obi Wan was sensing wasn't just Sideous. It seems to me that he was perhaps sensing the impending setting-in-motion of events which would dog Obi Wan for the rest of his life. Obi Wan's mind was on the future in that scene, while Qui Gon's was "in the here and now, where it belongs". I think that what Obi Wan was sensing probably went a good ways beyond the events that transpired over the course of TPM.

    But back to my main point, I don't think that the Jedi necessarily had a problem with emotional coloration of their perceptions to the point where a physical measurement of Force abilities was absolutely necessary. I do hope that we see some justification in the next two movies for the move from focusing on Midichlorian counts (which could still end up being more Qui Gon's trip than the Jedi Council's) to focusing on the spirit, as Yoda advised Luke to do in his "luminous beings" speech in ESB. An awfully big deal was made about midis in TPM for something which does not factor into the later films at all. It would be nice if Lucas could show a shift in focus in the next two films which carries us over from the more physical focus Qui Gon gave the Force in TPM to the more spiritual bent of the teachings of Ben and Yoda in the OT.
  20. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    patric

    Yeah, I realize some of it was the darkside examples...they rely on their emotions to give them their power :D But I can see where you are coming from.

    As far as the Qui-gon/obi-wan scene- I agree with you. Except Qui-gons, "For the moment" philosopy made him blind tot he potential evil that was there. Obi-wan was open to the mechinization from the begining. How this would have help them, I have no idea.

    I think that the Midiclorians will be important in the future. If not, Lucas might have just put the explination of the midiclorians just to answer the audience question "What were those Midiclorians test about"

    Cause if Lucas didn't answer that...there would have been a lot of debates over what they were and how they relate tot he force :)
  21. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    An awfully big deal was made about midis in TPM for something which does not factor into the later films at all.

    Really? I think the big deal was made by the fans- not the film.

    I think that the midichlorian test is what the Jedi do to select their potential trainees at an early age (ie. before they can test the actual person, and all they can go by is blood tests etc. "How feel you?" "Goo goo ga ga." "Much fear I sense in you..." Can't really see it working too well...) So if we're seeing trainee Jedi in Epsiode II, I imagine the midichlorian thing will factor in there.

    Qui Gon seems to think that because Anakin's got such a high midichlorian count, he should automatically be trained, but the thing is he's past the age where it's important.

    Also, the midichlorian tests mean that all potential Jedi across the galaxy will ALL be in the Jedi Temple in Episode III. For what that's worth...
  22. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    It would have been just as easy for Lucas to write it so that the Jedi could simply sense when an untrained being was open to and naturally in tune with the Force. IMHO the midichlorians were not needed for this.

    As for the Dark Side being hard to spot, that can easily be explained as a by product of embracing a Force method which is focused on the material aspects of life. The Dark Side is, by its nature, a more "solid", dense, materialistic approach to the Force (hence, the fact that it's quicker and easier to grasp for the novice). If one were to assume that the Jedi could sense the glow of the Force around one, one could imagine that the Dark Side would be a tight, contracted sort of energy, perhaps not distinguishable from a run-of-the-mill neurosis. In addition, those who embraced the Dark Side would also likely find ways to further hide their power from "prying third eyes", as it were.

    Again, I go back to Castaneda, who was one of Lucas' primary influences when he developed the concept of the Force in the OT. The seers in Castaneda's books could "see" the energy around a person, and seers had a very different shape and appearance to their energy from that which you'd see around a normal person. I could see using this as the method by which the Jedi sensed potential trainees, and were this the case, I could see dedicated Dark Side users developing methods to make their own energy appear as that of a normal person in order to hide what they were.

    Just another approach which would have worked just as well (if not better than) reducing the whole thing to a mere blood test.
  23. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    "It would have been just as easy for Lucas to write it so that the Jedi could simply sense when an untrained being was open to and naturally in tune with the Force. IMHO the midichlorians were not needed for this."

    Probably not. But I think they were needed for Qui-Gon to realise that Anakin was potentially more powerful than Yoda and also the chosen one.
  24. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    He could have done that merely by sensing Anakin's energy field as I suggested above. There's no reason he had to attach a number to it... it could have been something like "Even Master Yoda's field doesn't radiate out as far as this boy's does..." (insert appropriate Star Warsey terminology, of course).

    Anything done with the Star Trek technobabble gimmick could also have been done by Lucas simply revisiting the Castaneda books he used when developing his Force concepts for the OT. UNLESS, of course, there's some Clone Wars tie-in with the physical aspect of the Force. If that's the case, then I'll take a wait-and-see approach until Ep III is out. But barring that, the whole midichlorian thing seems unnecessarily cumbersome.
  25. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    The thing of it is, that in the Star Wars universe, sensing a force user seems to be pretty weak unless you are using it.

    For example: Vader did not sense the force in Leia, he did not sense the force in Luke when they were on the Death Star. He only sensed Obi-wan.

    In ESB, Again Vader was LOOKING for Luke. But until the probe droid gave him a focus-Vader had no clue where Luke was.

    Luke couldn't sense Yoda as a Jedi Master.

    In TPM, Qui-gon suspected the boy had the Force, but it was confirmed by midiclorians.

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