Plot holes? The final chapter.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by OrlandoT, Apr 7, 2002.

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  1. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Just another approach which would have worked just as well (if not better than) reducing the whole thing to a mere blood test.<<<

    It wasn't decided by just a mere blood test. After the test given by Qui-Gon, Anakin was tested by the other Jedi to see how gifted he really was.
  2. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "The thing of it is, that in the Star Wars universe, sensing a force user seems to be pretty weak unless you are using it."


    Weaker than the "Jedi Home Pregnancy Test" that Lucas stuck us with? I dunno 'bout THAT... ;)

    As for how people sensed one another in the OT... again, who were we dealing with here? A young, untrained man (were he strong enough with the Force to sense Yoda when he first arrived on Dagobah, it doesn't seem to me that he would have needed to have gone there in the first place, eh?) and a disturbed man in an iron mask who was strong enough with the Force to harness its more brutal aspects, but who didn't even have the insight to be able to figure out that the Emperor was playing him and fixing to discard him the moment Luke turned.

    I don't think it's beyond the pale to suggest that Vader might not have retained the more light-oriented abilities that the Jedi would have had access to. And Luke hadn't had the opportunity to develop those yet when he failed to recognize Yoda as a Jedi master.

    Beyond that, what Force users did we have in the OT whose actions would have contradicted a Jedi ability to perceive the Force around other Force sensitives?

    And come on... Lucas fudged the living hell out of the whole "Obi Wan's master" issue when he introduced Qui Gon in TPM. This energy perception thing would have been a cinch compared to that.
  3. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    But, but, but Patrick Rusell, you KNOW Lucas ALWAYS intended for Yoda to train all Jedi until their 7, and never meant for any of us to think it was a Master/Padawan thing.
  4. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>It would have been just as easy for Lucas to write it so that the Jedi could simply sense when an untrained being was open to and naturally in tune with the Force. IMHO the midichlorians were not needed for this.

    And create an explicit contradiction with the OT?

    I don't remember anyone in the OT sensing another Force User. Despite Vader and Leia spending a fair bit of time together (and obviously having some sort of history before ANH) he never cottoned on that she was another Skywalker.

    There was Father recognising Son,
    Son recognising Father,
    Apprentice recognising (former) Master,

    Basically, people recognising others who they had an innate connection with in the first place.

    But no "sensing Force-users."

    >>>>As for the Dark Side being hard to spot, that can easily be explained as a by product of embracing a Force method which is focused on the material aspects of life. The Dark Side is, by its nature, a more "solid", dense, materialistic approach to the Force (hence, the fact that it's quicker and easier to grasp for the novice). If one were to assume that the Jedi could sense the glow of the Force around one, one could imagine that the Dark Side would be a tight, contracted sort of energy, perhaps not distinguishable from a run-of-the-mill neurosis. In addition, those who embraced the Dark Side would also likely find ways to further hide their power from "prying third eyes", as it were.

    Great in a book (even if it has no connection with the OT), but how would you portray it in a film?
  5. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Again... were we dealing with any full-bore Jedi in the OT? This always seems to come back to Luke and Vader... an untrained boy and a mentally unbalanced cyborg who had dedicated himself to the coarse powers of the Dark Side. Luke got a serious crash course in Force use from Obi Wan and Obi Wan's old kindergarten teacher. And I don't think Luke ever had to go around playing "Spot The Force Sensitive" in any case. Vader was the classic "wounded warrior", and certainly wasn't having any truck with the side of the Force used for "knowledge and defense". It doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't be able to "see" Force sensitives.

    Look, Lucas made a FAR bigger stretch when he changed Obi Wan's mentor from Yoda to Qui Gon and relegated Yoda to being Obi Wan's kindergarten teacher. Introducing a method by which old-school Jedi could sense/perceive the Force nexus around potential Jedi wouldn't have required any more exposition than did the "Home Jedi Test" gimmick he ended up sticking us with. And it certainly would have kept more to the spirit of the Force that he wrote into the OT.

    "Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter."

    All I'm saying is that it would have been just as easy for Lucas to have the Old Republic Jedi focus be on the luminosity and not the crude matter. He chose to flip-flop on it, and we're stuck with that. But it's certainly not the only choice he had.
  6. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Introducing a method by which old-school Jedi could sense/perceive the Force nexus around potential Jedi wouldn't have required any more exposition than did the "Home Jedi Test" gimmick he ended up sticking us with. And it certainly would have kept more to the spirit of the Force that he wrote into the OT.

    Given that Vader can detect whether Han etc. are alive or dead (ESB, asteroid chase), where the rebel base is from a single picture of a shield generator from the other end of the galaxy (ESB, the beginning), when someone's using the Force (Luke, ANH, death star trench run), and recognise people through the Force (Obi Wan in ANH, Luke in ROTJ) this would make it pretty strange when he DOESN'T recognise Leia's innate potential in ANH when he's spending half the film with her. An unnecessary question to be raised, and a plot hole introduced.

    Your suggestion introduces an unnecesary plot hole, as well as makes Luke's character in ANH go from the galaxy's last hope to just one potential Jedi amongst however many in the galaxy. (ie. Why wouldn't Obi Wan and/or Yoda gone looking for other potential Jedi? Without the midichlorian test resulting in ALL kids with a high midichlorian count being taken in by the Jedi, there would be plenty more out there suitable for training.)

    >>>Lucas made a FAR bigger stretch when he changed Obi Wan's mentor from Yoda to Qui Gon and relegated Yoda to being Obi Wan's kindergarten teacher

    Yoda still seems to be Obi Wan's mentor from the AOTC trailers, certainly has enough respect from Obi Wan for him to raise Yoda's teachings to question his Master's, and I wouldn't say one of the heads of the Jedi Council is exactly a relegation...
  7. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Dude, there was never anything about little Force Bugs in people's blood in the OT either. Nor was there ever anything about Yoda merely being Obi Wan's old kindergarten teacher. But Lucas managed to work those in.

    Also, I think there's a big difference between seeing auras and simple instinct and ability to hear "white noise" when the Force is being used(which is what you're basically talking about with Vader). What I'm talking about is a specific ability that the old-school Jedi would likely have developed (at least the Masters would have) and not just some general thing that anyone with an ounce of Force ability could do. Luke was untrained for most of the OT, and Vader was consumed with the hatred and rage of the Dark Side.

    If an Old Republic Jedi Master had the learned ability to perceive Force auras, how would that contradict what we know of the Force from two OT characters who were most certainly NOT Jedi Masters?
  8. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Dude, there was never anything about little Force Bugs in people's blood in the OT either.

    Nor is there in TPM! "Midichlorians are microscopic life forms which live inside our cells." Not 'force-bugs.'

    Nor was there ever anything about Yoda merely being Obi Wan's old kindergarten teacher.

    Nor is there in TPM, really... And as he apparently goes back to him for guidance in the AOTC trailer it seems to be a weak analogy to me (having not gone back for any finger-painting advice for about 18 years now 8-})...

    What I'm talking about is a specific ability that the old-school Jedi would likely have developed (at least the Masters would have) and not just some general thing that anyone with an ounce of Force ability could do. Luke was untrained for most of the OT, and Vader was consumed with the hatred and rage of the Dark Side.

    But Vader was a powerful Jedi before- if he could detect everything that he could detect in the OT, the inability to sense either Leia's potential, or her connection to him would make no sense.

    (And personally, I don't like the idea of inventing new force-powers as a plot device- particularly ones that don't gel with the OT, and especially ones that don't gel with ANH.)

    If an Old Republic Jedi Master had the learned ability to perceive Force auras, how would that contradict what we know of the Force from two OT characters who were most certainly NOT Jedi Masters?

    How about Yoda? Why would he be holed up on Dagobah and not doing some good roaming the galaxy, finding other potential Jedi to train?
  9. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "But Vader was a powerful Jedi before- if he could detect everything that he could detect in the OT, the inability to sense either Leia's potential, or her connection to him would make no sense."


    Do we know this to be true, though? Do we know that he was a powerful Jedi before he turned to the Dark Side? Aside from Ben and Yoda telling Luke tall tales about his father in ANH and ESB, the only real reference to this that I remember was Vader's line in ANH "When I left you, I was but the learner... now I am the master."

    I've got to wonder if Anakin leaves Obi Wan while he's still an apprentice. And if so, it would make sense that perhaps when he left he'd learned only part of what he'd have known by the time he was a master. Certainly with what was already presented in the OT, this would have been very easy to write into the PT, and it would have provided a perfect rationale as to why as Vader he couldn't do everything that a Jedi Master would have been able to do.

    Also, it's not like a Jedi would necessarily have to walk around seeing auras around people 24/7... I'd assume that it would be something they'd have to consciously sit there and do rather than just it being a reflexive thing. Find a potential Padawan, sit down with him/her, focus your attention, and "see" their energy field. Seems pretty reasonable a thing to ascribe to a Jedi Master... and I agree, it wouldn't make sense for it to be something that just happened all the time. For one thing, it would be too much like tripping constantly... I'd imagine it would get pretty durn distracting after awhile. But as an ability that a Jedi Master could consciously use when he or she wished to, I hardly think that it's that odd a thing to suggest.

    For one thing, it would relate specifically to the source material Lucas used originally to help create his concept of the Force. Yoda even says... "Luminous beings are we". All this would do would be to expand on this concept a little bit. It wouldn't be some left field technobabble invention like midichlorians... it's already basically described in ESB.

    (Why wasn't Yoda trucking around the galaxy looking for potential Jedi? Erm... well, there's the SMALL issue of the Empire having a bit of a problem playing nice with Jedi Master, y'see...) ;)
  10. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Come on guys, the issue of who trained Obi-Wan was answered a LONG time ago. Get over it.
    By your logic, if I was taught by Mr. Thomson in primary school, and Mr. Smith in high school, and I said Mr. Thomson was a teacher who instructed me, I would be a liar. :)
  11. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    It all depends on what the definition of "is" is...

    ;)
  12. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    I believe the Midichlorines will be used as a way to explain how the Emperor could eliminate future Jedi during the dark times of the Empire. Think about it. Neither Vader or Palpatine can go around the galaxy searching every child to see if they have force potential. The empire instead keeps the test for midi's and eliminates any potential jedi before they become a threat.
  13. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    So why did Jar-Jar go into Mos Espa with Qui-Gon again, if he never owed Qui-Gon a life debt?
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Lucas meant for you to be attentive enough that this doesn't confuse you. He didn't mean for you to invent reasons why the continuity might not work all the time.

    The only plot holes here are ones in people's minds.
  15. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<Lucas meant for you to be attentive enough that this doesn't confuse you. He didn't mean for you to invent reasons why the continuity might not work all the time.

    >>

    I don't have to "invent" anything. Apparently, as OrlandoT has told me, JAr-JAr never owed Qui-Gon a life debt, because Qui-Gon said it wasn't necessary (that's how he can "participate" in the end battle and not be a dishonorable deserter.) So, if this is truly the case, then why does Jar-Jar go into Mos Espa? If it isn't the case, then isn't Jar-Jar a dishonorable, backstabbing jerk for ignoring the life debt he owed at the end of the movie? (So much for Jar-Jar being "loveable") The only one who isn't being attentive here is Lucas in relation to his writing. Lucas himself has admitted he hates writing.

    Oh, and I don't have to do what Lucas "means" for me to do just because I'm a Star Wars fan. I'm not going to excuse bad writing and storytelling decisions just because he "means" for me to. I'm not a sheep.
  16. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>I don't have to "invent" anything. Apparently, as OrlandoT has told me, JAr-JAr never owed Qui-Gon a life debt, because Qui-Gon said it wasn't necessary (that's how he can "participate" in the end battle and not be a dishonorable deserter.) So, if this is truly the case, then why does Jar-Jar go into Mos Espa?<<<<

    Sorry to confuse you. I never said that he didn't owe Qui, I said that Qui never called him on it. A slight difference there.

    >>>If it isn't the case, then isn't Jar-Jar a dishonorable, backstabbing jerk for ignoring the life debt he owed at the end of the movie? (So much for Jar-Jar being "loveable") The only one who isn't being attentive here is Lucas in relation to his writing. Lucas himself has admitted he hates writing.<<<<

    First, you complain about Jar-Jar following Qui-Gon then you complain about him staying behind. It almost looks like you are the one not being attentive. You seem to be too lazy to think that maybe, just maybe his fighting along the Gungans to help the queen's cause could constitute helping Qui-Gon.



    >>>Oh, and I don't have to do what Lucas "means" for me to do just because I'm a Star Wars fan. I'm not going to excuse bad writing and storytelling decisions just because he "means" for me to. I'm not a sheep.<<<

    I think Lucas' mistake might have been given some folks too much credit.


  17. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<>>>I don't have to "invent" anything. Apparently, as OrlandoT has told me, JAr-JAr never owed Qui-Gon a life debt, because Qui-Gon said it wasn't necessary (that's how he can "participate" in the end battle and not be a dishonorable deserter.) So, if this is truly the case, then why does Jar-Jar go into Mos Espa?<<<<

    Sorry to confuse you. I never said that he didn't owe Qui, I said that Qui never called him on it. A slight difference there.


    Why did you bring it up then? Because Qui-Gon doesn't call Jar-Jar on it, Jar-Jar has no obligation to follow up on it? If you owe someone money, but they don't say anything about it, even though you know, in your heart that you do owe them some, that's wrong, isn't it?

    >>>If it isn't the case, then isn't Jar-Jar a dishonorable, backstabbing jerk for ignoring the life debt he owed at the end of the movie? (So much for Jar-Jar being "loveable") The only one who isn't being attentive here is Lucas in relation to his writing. Lucas himself has admitted he hates writing.<<<<

    First, you complain about Jar-Jar following Qui-Gon then you complain about him staying behind. It almost looks like you are the one not being attentive.


    Actually, what I was TRYING to prove was that from either point of view (JAr-JAr owes a life debt, Jar-JAr doesn't owe a life debt), Lucas slipped up somewhere. No matter how you look at it, he made a mistake there. I thought the way I wrote that made it pretty clear in suggesting that.

    You seem to be too lazy to think that maybe, just maybe his fighting along the Gungans to help the queen's cause could constitute helping Qui-Gon.

    Well, that seems like a perfectly logical and sensible conclusion IF YOU THROW LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE OUT THE WINDOW. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, that doesn't make a lick of sense? How does Jar-JAr fighting for the Queen's cause constitute helping Qui-Gon? What does the Queen's cause have to do with helping Qui-Gon? It's not as though we ever see Qui-Gon asking Jar-Jar to fight in the end battle? If we did, you might have a point, but we didn't. The Jedi's presence in the end battle is apparently not supposed to have anything to do with freeing the planet from invasion (We can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you). Their main reason to be there is, according to the dialogue, to PROTECT the Queen and unravel the mystery of the SITH. What does Jar-JAr "fighting" against the Trade Federation droids have to do with that? That's right, he DIED! It really doesn't seem as though Jar-Jar was helping Qui-Gon in any way, shape, or form. Or are you trying to suggest that by "helping" the Naboo/Gungans, who are good guys, since Qui-Gon is a good guy, Jar-Jar was helping Qui-Gon? Because that's the only thing I see that even comes close to being a connection. And that's a prettty weak connection.

    Maybe, though, Lucas planned this out. Maybe he meant for Jar-Jar to be a villian, albeit one in disguise in Episode I. He thought that people would be taken in by his stupidity and equate it with being "loveable". Certainly, knowing some of his actions in a certain movie that's coming out later this week, this theory is not ENTIRELY unsupported. Wait till Episode II before you so quickly label Jar-Jar as "one of the good guys." You will soon see why I am right and you are wrong.


    (There, see how that feels. See how stupid that whole train of thought such as"wait till episode II" is? People have different interpretations of different things, and while for you, AOTC may justify Qui-Gon's prominence in Episode II, maybe, just mayve, it won't for others. Much as, while for me, Episode II may support the fact that Jar-JAr is unlikeable, it probably won't for you.)

    >>>Oh, and I don't have to do what Lucas "means" for me to do just because I'm a Star Wars fan. I'm not going to excuse bad writing and storytelling decisions just because he "means" for me to. I'm not a sheep.<<<

    I think Lucas' mistake might have been given some folks too much credit.


    Or maybe not eno
  18. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Plot holes

    I don't really follow this Jar Jar debate... As far as I can understand, Jar Jar felt that when Qui Gon saved his life at the start of the film, his life then belonged to him (not that he wasn't allowed to let Qui Gon out of his sight.) Qui Gon used this "life debt" to save Jar Jar from being "punished" when he made him take them to Gungan City.

    Patrick Russel,

    >>>>Do we know this to be true, though? Do we know that he was a powerful Jedi before he turned to the Dark Side? Aside from Ben and Yoda telling Luke tall tales about his father in ANH and ESB, the only real reference to this that I remember was Vader's line in ANH "When I left you, I was but the learner... now I am the master."

    Well, the other lines that refer to Anakin in the OT that I can remember are;

    Obi Wan: "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father."

    I guess that sort of implies that they ended up at the same level, although it's hardly definitive...

    Yoda: "Why must you become a Jedi?"
    Luke: "Because of my father, I guess"
    Yoda: "Mmm... powerful Jedi was he, powerful Jedi..."

    I guess Vaders line can be interpreted 2 ways- either taken literally, that he was still Obi Wan's apprentice when he "left", or meaning that Obi Wan was still his "better" (ie. Anakin had passed the trials but not yet surpassed Obi Wan's teachings when he left- which the Emperor had presumably completed.) I think the second is more how I've always interpreted it (especially as if they do have the big "final duel" then Obi Wan is obviously going to be the winner!), but I suppose it could just as easily turn out to be the first.

    As for the "auras" thing, for me the idea of a "Force aura" doesn't really gel, although it's hard to explain why (other than the way it would be almost impossible to convey in a film- particularly with the Star Wars style of filming.)

    >>>>(Why wasn't Yoda trucking around the galaxy looking for potential Jedi? Erm... well, there's the SMALL issue of the Empire having a bit of a problem playing nice with Jedi Master, y'see...)

    But if anyone could have hidden their aura, surely Yoda, the Jedi Master could?
    8-}
  19. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "I guess Vaders line can be interpreted 2 ways-either taken literally, that he was still Obi-wan's apprentice when he "left", or meaning that Obi-wan was still his "better"(i.e. Anakin has passed the trials but not yet surpassed Obi-wan's teachings when he left-which the Emperor presumably completed.)I think the second is more how I've always interpreted it(especially as if they do have the big "final duel" then Obi-wan going to be the winner!), but I suppose it could just as easily turn out to be the first."

    I think that it is the first because there are some other quotes that suggests that Anakin/Vader was still a padawan when he left which is:

    Yoda: Beware....anger, fear, agression--the darkside of the force, are they. Quick to join you when you fight, easily they flow; if once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice.

    Obi-wan: I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda....I was wrong.

    As for the trials, it is known that if you face the darkside and resist its temptations, you will have passed the trials but Anakin didn't resist the darkside which is why he'll fail to pass the trials.
  20. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Remember, Random... the quotes of Ben's and Yoda's you reference were made to a young man from whom they were both attempting to conceal the truth about his father. Part of that tall tale depended on Luke believing that his father was a Jedi Knight who was betrayed and murdered by Obi Wan's apprentice, and not the apprentice himself.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    He didn't forget it. Yoda is the Jedi Master who taught him. It is explicitly stated in ESB even if it isn't explained further in the prequels where so far, nothing contradicts that.

    Just because Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's padawan doesn't mean Yoda didn't teach him.
  22. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Like I said, it all depends on what the definition of "is" is...

    ;)
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well Yoda is the only Jedi Master around at the time of the conversation.

    I guess you have a choice. You can understand why that makes sense, or you can hold on to the misunderstanding that it doesn't. Once again we come back to you making a choice to like or dislike what is happening in the saga.

    What's it gonna be?
  24. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
  25. moviechaser Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    I'm not sure how this ties in with plot holes. but I saw an interview with Lucas and he explained the reason behind why he went into the details of the Mitachloriens. He felt he should break it down for the viewers so they could understand the force in a tangable, real way. I think that was genius personaly. same goes for all that "Ster Trek technobable" to be able to translate science fiction into something that could be science fact takes intelligence and imagination.
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