Plot holes? The final chapter.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by OrlandoT, Apr 7, 2002.

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  1. Darth-Schwartz Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2002
    star 4
    a scientific spin on something religious. i liked the idea but i know alot of people who didn't.
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  3. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Moviechaser, what you describe is a perfect example of how Lucas dumbed things down for TPM... for decades the Force has worked just fine as a concept which didn't follow a flow chart... which required some thought and reflection to make sense of because it WASN'T boiled down into a scientific process. Now suddenly he's got to diminish the whole thing by "breaking it down for the viewers so they could understand the force in a tangable, real way"... in other words, gotta come up with a technobabble explanation to make it a more "accessable" concept. No sense letting viewers engage their ability to think in spiritual/philosophical terms... let's just give them a no-brainer biological process to chalk the whole thing up to.

    Sorry, I just don't see the genius in giving the Force the "short attention span theatre" treatment...
  4. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    If people's explanations of what midichlorians are had more in common with the films explanations of what midichlorians are, I'd agree that it's dumbed down. The fact that so many people whink that they're something completely different implies to me that maybe it wasn't dumbed down enough.
  5. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Force perception has been reduced from a spiritual ability to an ability based largely on biological amplifiers in one's cells. Anyone with a stereo can understand the whole biological amplifier thing... the old "Zen style" approach to Force perception was something that took more thought. The midichlorians are there mainly to make the concept of the Force more "accessible" to the audience... in other words, they can grasp it without having to think about it as much.
  6. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    Tsk Tsk what Malthus?

    Just letting ya know that putting the situation like that may seem clear-cut to you but it's just not that easy for those who honestly want to like it but their personal tastes would be compromised to do so. I said tsk tsk because we've been here before.

    I was acting like an overwrought authority figure -- in jest.

    I should have thrown a winkie in there.

    ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    But Matlhus, this isn't something that is subjective to taste. If you don't like the fact that Yoda trained Obi-Wan before Qui-Gon took him on as a padawan, that is a whole differnt argument.

    I am talking about the choice to understand or misunderstand something that admittedly seems ambiguous without Episode II or III.

    But the bottom line is this does make sense. This is not contradictory. The choice I am asking you to make is wether or not you choose to understand why this makes perfect sense in the long run.

    Just like 3-PO not remmebering Tattoine in the classic trilogy. Sure with the films out now it seems like it could be contradictory, but according to Lucas this will be adressed, we just haven't got to that reason yet.
  8. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Patrick Russel,

    The midichlorians are there mainly to make the concept of the Force more "accessible" to the audience... in other words, they can grasp it without having to think about it as much.

    If that were the case, then surely TPM would have at least attempted to directly explain what the Force is, rather than showing what it can do, how the Jedi select recruits? (ie. talking around it.)

    I don't think anyone who hadn't seen the OT would be able to guess what the Force is after seeing TPM, but I don't think it's accidental.

    On the other hand, they would know a lot more about the Jedi than someone who had seen the OT alone.
  9. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    As has been pointed out before, TPM shows the Jedi using the Force to perform all manner of magical feats. We also are told that Jedi use the Force to "see things before they happen". Then we get a handy-dandy biological reason why Jedi can perceive the Force and do all these things.

    Tied up with a bow, and served up on a silver platter... ;)
  10. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    Well, that seems like a perfectly logical and sensible conclusion IF YOU THROW LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE OUT THE WINDOW. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, that doesn't make a lick of sense? How does Jar-JAr fighting for the Queen's cause constitute helping Qui-Gon?<<<<

    Gee, Qui-Gon's duty was to ensure the queen's safety. You know, I feel like I'm wasting my breath here. You don't like Jar-Jar, fine. I'm sure there are many here that will give you some valid reasons. It gets silly trying to come up with something. You've invented some silly objection to justify some reason to be against Jar-Jar. You ignore points in the movie like Jar-Jar taking them to Otah-Gunga and taking the queen to the Gungan hidden city. You ignore the fact that what little Qui-Gon asked of Jar-Jar, he complied. Like I said, many eloquent folks here, who some labeled Bashers, have managed to come up with some valid negative opinion about Jar-Jar. You have not.

    >>>What does the Queen's cause have to do with helping Qui-Gon? It's not as though we ever see Qui-Gon asking Jar-Jar to fight in the end battle? If we did, you might have a point, but we didn't. The Jedi's presence in the end battle is apparently not supposed to have anything to do with freeing the planet from invasion (We can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you).<<<<<

    Thank you. Thank you for proving my point about giving some a little too much credit. Think about what you posted above. No, let me explain it to you. The Jedi can't help the queen save the planet from the invasion, yet Jar-Jar can.



    >>>Maybe, though, Lucas planned this out. Maybe he meant for Jar-Jar to be a villian, albeit one in disguise in Episode I. He thought that people would be taken in by his stupidity and equate it with being "loveable". Certainly, knowing some of his actions in a certain movie that's coming out later this week, this theory is not ENTIRELY unsupported. Wait till Episode II before you so quickly label Jar-Jar as "one of the good guys." You will soon see why I am right and you are wrong.


    (There, see how that feels. See how stupid that whole train of thought such as"wait till episode II" is? People have different interpretations of different things, and while for you, AOTC may justify Qui-Gon's prominence in Episode II, maybe, just mayve, it won't for others. Much as, while for me, Episode II may support the fact that Jar-JAr is unlikeable, it probably won't for you.) <<<<

    I have very little knowledge about Ep.2 (Except this rumor I just heard that Jar-Jar might be a bad guy.) For me, I measure Qui's importance from what I know of the OT.



  11. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Tied up with a bow, and served up on a silver platter...<<<<

    It also hints at how Papatine would ensure that there would be no more future Jedi. Neither Vader nor the Emperor are capable of being around every child born in the galaxy to see if they have some aura. By using the tests the federation used to identify Jedi, they can either:

    A) Keep an eye on them
    B) Kill them
    C) Recruit them
  12. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Patrick Russel,

    So was there no need to train Anakin, seeing as he had such a high midichlorian count (which is apparently the important thing) he didn't need to be trained?

    8-}
  13. batman697 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2002
    star 1
    I read some of this thread and people were complaining about quigon and anakin running to the ship and the fact that it is not explained. Did anyone point out the deleted scene on dvd? They find a probe droid following them

    Lucas was so wrong about that scene. He should have watched the movie and wondered, "hmmm, why the hell are they running? Damn, I really should put that scene back in..."
  14. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Lucas was so wrong about that scene. He should have watched the movie and wondered, "hmmm, why the hell are they running? Damn, I really should put that scene back in..."<<<<

    Partially, I agree here. I think the scene would have worked better with the probe droid. However, when I first saw the film, without knowledge of the deleted scene, my belief was that they had the ship fixed sooner than expected, and Qui-Gon wanted to get out to Couroscant as soon as possible.

    BTW, reading some of the posts here, you know folks would have complained about that scene. They would point how Lucas never explained why the probe would zero in on a disguised Qui-Gon and some kid.
  15. batman697 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2002
    star 1
    Yeah good point. one would have to assume some info was passed on from the TF.

    I just thought it looked funny that they running just to get to ship quicker. danger would be a much better excuse. Who knows. I don't even want to get in to the arguement about whether deleted scenes count for "canon"
  16. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<Well, that seems like a perfectly logical and sensible conclusion IF YOU THROW LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE OUT THE WINDOW. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, that doesn't make a lick of sense? How does Jar-JAr fighting for the Queen's cause constitute helping Qui-Gon?<<<<

    Gee, Qui-Gon's duty was to ensure the queen's safety.


    And Jar-Jar falling crotch first on a tank cannon has to do with this how? Don't tell me "cause of the diversion". The Gungans could have easily pulled off the diversion without Jar-Jar's "help". In fact, they probably would have pulled it off faster without Jar-Jar's "leadership". Or was it because he??get ready for this, it will blow your mind how much effort Jar-Jar exerted to do this, and the great sacrifice he had to make--told them about the sacred place. Wow, that Jar-Jar sure went through a lot of work for this. I'm convinced that he's worth something after all. Especially because there's no way the sensors on the Queen's ship could get detect the "massive life form readings" that the population of an entire city would surely give off.

    You know, I feel like I'm wasting my breath here.

    Me too. No matter what I say your always going to come up with some half-assed "explanation" that makes no sense. And if I try and use logic to prove you wrong by using statements like, "If this was the case, then why did...?", and, "If this wasn't the case, then why didn't...?", you go on about how I "can't even make up my mind and stick with the same argument". Right.

    You don't like Jar-Jar, fine. I'm sure there are many here that will give you some valid reasons. It gets silly trying to come up with something.

    Actually, this is more about what a crappy plot device the whole Gungan "life-debt" thing was, and how it's a plot hole.

    Oh, if you want to know why I hate Jar-Jar, it's because he's a rude, cowardly, insensitive, ignorant, greedy (Something to add to thi: I recently noticed that when Qui-Gon said, "Greed can be a powerful ally," Jar-Jar makes a strange glance at him. Hmm, I wonder if that statement applies to him, as well), selfish, theiving traitor.

    {i]You've invented some silly objection to justify some reason to be against Jar-Jar. [/i]

    You've invented silly objections to every damn thing I've said.

    You ignore points in the movie like Jar-Jar taking them to Otah-Gunga and taking the queen to the Gungan hidden city. You ignore the fact that what little Qui-Gon asked of Jar-Jar, he complied.

    Yes, but doesn't the life debt also include following around the person to whom you owe it a lot? Isn't that why he goes with Qui-Gon into Tattooine? That's why we have to endure him through the Tattooine section of the movie, right? Otherwise, there's no other reason for him to be there. He doesn't do anything "important" (even by Jar-Jar standards) in that portion of the movie.

    >>>What does the Queen's cause have to do with helping Qui-Gon? It's not as though we ever see Qui-Gon asking Jar-Jar to fight in the end battle? If we did, you might have a point, but we didn't. The Jedi's presence in the end battle is apparently not supposed to have anything to do with freeing the planet from invasion (We can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you).<<<<<

    Thank you. Thank you for proving my point about giving some a little too much credit. Think about what you posted above. No, let me explain it to you. The Jedi can't help the queen save the planet from the invasion, yet Jar-Jar can.


    I don't think you were condescending enough with that post. How did Jar-Jar falling crotch first onto a tank a cannon and stumbling, tripping and running away like a coward help save the planet from invasion? They lost that part of the battle anyway, and the purpose of that battle was a diversion. The Gungans could have easily created the diversion without Jar-Jar there, in fact, they would probably have been able to do it BETTER. So how did he help to save the planet from the invasion by acting like a moron in the battle? I can see how h
  17. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    You ignore the fact that what little Qui-Gon asked of Jar-Jar, he complied.

    Uhhh, no he didn't. Remember in Watto's shop when Jar-Jar got his slimy paws all over a part, and Qui-Gon took it from him, telling him, "Don't touch anything!" Not only does Jar-Jar make a rude and childish geture to Qui-Gon, he quickly proceeds to get his dirty paws all over a pit droid. But it doesn't end there!!! When we cut back to the scene, we see Jar-Jar juggling parts!!!

    Wow, he really listened to Qui-Gon then. Jar-Jar's loyalty and devotion to Qui-Gon because of his life debt is truly outstanding, what with the way how he ignores him half the time and abandons Qui-Gon when he needs his help the most.
  18. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    Gomer, I hear ya. I think I was jumping in on a conversation I knew little about at the time. I heard you posing a choice to someone about liking or disliking, and I clicked reply without really understanding the current bent of the conversation. Bad, bad Malthus!

    Like you, I do think there's room for some of these things to be explained, "the Jedi Master who instructed me" included.
  19. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    I'm new to this topic, and from what's here, I'm almost tempted to believe it should be locked, as AOTC has already been released. I'm not sure if this thread is meant to be considering the events of AOTC or not. If so, then I would say at least one of the major plot holes discussed at the beginning of this thread has been successfully resolved by GL.

    How'd Maul trace the Queen's ship? The same way Obi-Wan traced Anakin, I would assume.

    As for the other of the original plot holes stated at the beginning of this thread, that, too, is "resolved" by the commentary on the DVD. It's GL's style just to show the middle parts of scenes. If Anakin and Qui-Gon begin a scene running, that's just how GL does it. It's not a "plot hole" in GL's mind; it's a stylistic choice.

    As an aside, how can this thread be entitled, "The final chapter"? How can one put a final seal over plot holes before all the movies are finished?
  20. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>What I was saying that he was dishonoring his life debt by "fighting" in the end battle when he was supposed to be Qui-Gon's "humble servant". He basically abandoned Qui-Gon.

    It's OK. I've spoken to Lucas on my special Nerdphone earlier today, and explained his mistake. He agrees that it was a terrible oversight, but has come to a conclusion on how it can be remedied...

    When the 6-part DVD boxset comes out there will be one, minor change to TPM, just for you...
  21. ObiWanKNObi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    I haven't seen this mentioned in the previous pages (although after reading through seventeen pages, my brain is uncomfortably numb and I might have missed it...i'm supposed to be working.) Anyway, how come in the beginning of TPM QGJ and OB1 can run really fast (after they encounter the destroyer droids on the TF ship). But, when QGJ and Maul are fighting, and OB1 is running to catch up with them, OB1 runs slower than I do in my dreams when I am being chased by tough guys who want to beat me up. Lucas conveniently forgot this athletic skill when he needed the two jedi seperated so one could die.
  22. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    AHHHHHHH. I'VE HEARD ABOUT THAT ONE SO MANY TIMES EVEN I'M STARTING TO GET ANNOYED BY THAT!
  23. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    So there's no plot holes then?

    ;)
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