Plot holes? The final chapter.

"Gee, reckless jedi who bet all on risking the kid's life in a pod race. You think he's going to think twice about taking a kid into combat? Keeping in mind that Qui, who's known for bending the rules, was hinting at training him by example."

Qui-Gon stood to lose by getting Anakin killed much more than he stood to gain by giving Anakin a single lesson.

"Yup. The TF aren't known as military genius."

Yes, dumb down the villain so the heroes can win! That's the stuff heroic battles are made of! Bleh.

 

>>>>Qui-Gon stood to lose by getting Anakin killed much more than he stood to gain by giving Anakin a single lesson.<<<<

Again, he really did believe he could keep him safe. He did keep him safe. If Anakin had never taken off he would never have been in danger inside the cockpit. His recklessness in taking Anakin along is in character.

>>>"Yup. The TF aren't known as military genius."

Yes, dumb down the villain so the heroes can win! That's the stuff heroic battles are made of! Bleh<<<


You do realize that the heroes didn't win at the end of TPM don't you?

 

Well the trade federation wasn't just "dumb", they were expertly manipulated by the most evil being in the galaxy.

They were just a shipping company who transported goods to the outer rim territories like Naboo. After manipulating the Senate into passing new taxes on outlying starsystems, Sidious approaches the Trade Federation and gets them to beleive that blockading Naboo will force the Senate to deal with their unhappieness with the new tax.

They went to purchase a droid army, and they could have gotten droids that thought on their own, but because they feared the droids overthrowing them, because they assumed everyone was as greedy and opportunistic as they were, they didn't feel comfortable leaving that opportunity open for them. Also, it was cheaper, which of course meant a better bottom line.

Once they had occupied Theed, there was no need for all the shipping vessels to remain there, so they were sent back to shipping duties (another choice made with financial gains in mind).

They realized that if the central control ship was destroyed, the droid army would be reduced to scrap metal, which is why they invested heavily in the Control Ship's sheilds.

I am not sure if you noticed, but the sheilds were able to withstand any attack the Naboo could launch against it.

The only reason the Control Ship was destroyed was because Anakin just happened to fly into the hangar at the exact moment they had lowered the docking bay's sheild to let another ship out (slow mo the scene, the ship leaving is clealry there).

Sure, they weren't the brightest bulbs in the galaxy, but then again, there have been much dumber villans out there. Lucas put quite a bit of thought into the character of the Niemodians. More than many would put into undestanding this film.

 

The simple reason Qui-Gon took Anakin with him to Naboo was because there were no other options.

Anakin had been refused Jedi training, and it wasn't like they ran a daycare center for rejected Jedi hopefuls.

He couldn't just leave him unsupervised in his own accomodations, and he had to escort the Queen back right away which means no time to drop him off at his mothers hovel for a while.

On top of having no choice, he was determined to train Anakin as a Jedi. He asked Anakin to watch him and be mindful. He was hoping Anakin would start to understand the Jedi way of life by accompanying him on his missions.

 

The reason they told them not to make any transmissions of any kind was because they never expected anyone with Force powers tracing them.

For a normal being, a single trace would only get them pointed in the right direction, while the second signal from a return message would pinpoint their exact location.

That's why the Nimodians tell Sidious that it is impossible to trace the ship. Sidious tells him "not for the Sith".

Just as a side note I saw a comment saying that people like me spend "too much" time coming up with these explanations. To that all I can say is that is just the kinds of fans we are. We are more than willing to meet George half way. After all, he is doing all the hard work, all we have to do is enjoy the finished films.

But obviously, that is too much trouble for some of us.

 

The Jedi did not testify for a couple of reasons. As Patrick mentioned, they were sent in secret, and Vallorum was on shakey ground as it was. Revealing their involvement would have been curtains for the Chancellor.

Second, even if that wasn't a concern (which it obvioulsy was), if they were to testify, they would have had to wait like they had asked the Queen to do, until a committie could be formed to invesitgate their claims.

I personally think if Amidala had simply refused to defer, instead of ousting Vallorum right away, things might have gone much better (well at least for the time being).

 

Excellent explanations Go-Mer-Tonic! And I agree with you about meeting George half-way. But I was wondering if you or anyone else had any explanation as to how Sidious knew that the Jedi were with the Queen because I'm still puzzled by this.

 

Because Nute Gunray was shown to keep the Jedi's escape from Sidious, how did he know they were helping the Queen?

Maybe Sidious can just sense the Jedi in the same way Vader senses Obi-Wan aboard the Death Star. Knowing the Queen would likely not have tried to escape without their intervention he might have tried to sense their presence.

(I edited out my first theory that Maul was just talking about revealing themselves to the Jedi in general, not specifically Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan, because while watching the film I realized that Sidious tells Maul to move against the Jedi first...)

 

(reading things on the first page now)

You can't call not showing how Maul traced them a hole with the narrative, because it is made clear that for whatever reason, the Sith could trace them when the Niemodians were unable to. It is also made clear that Maul's trace was successful.

This isn't called "The Phantom Menace" for nothing you know. You are supposed to find the proceedings mysterious and tough to nail down.

 

The truth is, Jedi are taught in the Jedi temple until they are chosen as a Padawan Learner by a Master Jedi, or at least one who has passed the Trials (they only become true Masters after sucessfully guiding a Padawan through the trials themselves).

Is this explained in TPM? No, but then again it never says anything to the contrary. Obi-Wan doesn't mention "the Jedi Master who instructed me" until The Empire Strikes back.

One of the things Obi-Wan tells Luke in ROTJ is that he thought he could teach Anakin as well as Yoda. It is obvious that he realizes that Anakin was missing something crucial that only Yoda could teach, so that is why he sends Luke to Yoda.

How does he know Yoda is such a great teacher, someone who's teachings are essential to a Jedi's training?

Well he had to be taught by Yoda. If he hadn't been taught by Yoda, then he would have seen first hand that it didn't require Yoda's teachings to keep him on the up and up.

Oh and Episode II apparently makes this crystal clear I hear.

 

I just don't buy the idea that Qui-Gon had "no other choice" but to throw Anakin onto the front line. Are we supposed to believe that Qui's sixty-plus years as a Jedi failed to garner him one single contact on Coruscant he could trust with a kid for a couple of weeks? For argument's sake, let's assume that Qui has never met a single soul who'd be willing to grant that favor (and let's assume further that Valorum, who Qui seems to trust implicitly, has no power or money to help). Which is the greater risk: Leaving Anakin unsupervised in his own quarters--in the middle of the Jedi temple, or at most a few miles away--or taking him unarmed into seemingly unwinnable combat?

As far as Qui knew, the dozen of them were heading back to recapture a planet occupied by thousands of hostile troops--and a Sith Lord to boot--with no guarantee of any outside help.

And it's not as if he intended for Anakin to join the battle; if his only intention was to have Anakin watch him, there were other, infinitely safer, infinitely more practical ways to do it. Instead, he brought him directly into danger to have him hide from that same danger. To me, that seems like anything but a rational choice; it's the writer pulling strings. (Even the Will of the Force doesn't do anything but what the writer tells it to.)

"You do realize that the heroes didn't win at the end of TPM don't you?"

They won the battle against the opponents they aimed to defeat--and again, the existence of a higher villain doesn't neccessitate that his underlings be as utterly inept as the Feds were.

They fail to kill the Jedi. They fail to hold the Queen. Their entire blockade fails to stop a single ship. They fail to trace the ship. They fail to recognize the Gungans' diversion. They fail to stop Amidala and her half-dozen troops from overtaking the palace. They fail to defend their flagship.

Even the Stormtroopers were allowed to win a fight once in a while--much to the betterment of the story. Luke, Han and Leia had to earn their victories; Qui, Ami Ani and Jar Jar had their victories handed to them.

 

Front line? He thought it was a simple escort detail. Notice when he found out what the Queen had planed, he reminded her that he could only protect her, he couldn't fight a war for her. And like I said, he had no other choice but to bring Anakin with him. What else could he have done with him?

And actually, Sidious' whole plan relied on putting weak-minded pawns in place.

The whole Prequel Trilogy is wrapped in "destiny". Anakin becomes acustom to the idea that his destiny will simply be handed to him, so he will figure he doesn't have to exert any moral restraint because no matter what happens, it is the will of the Force.

 

Hmmmm... let see.

Sidious managed to

A)Had a Jedi Killed
B)Remainied anomynous
C)Discoverd a potential new pupil
D)Achieved his original goal of becoming Chancelor.


Yup. Complete failure that Palpatine was

There is also a certian "boys tale" logic that flows througth The Phantom Menance. For example-why the heck does Jim go on the trip in Treasure Island. Why would Jim let Huck tag along as he escaped? Why would Batman let Robin hang around? There also was Tom Swift, the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew.

It's escapsim fantasy-Qui Gon did not want abandon Anakin, he wanted Anakin to learn how to be a Jedi by watching him, the cockpit of the Spacecraft was the safest place during the battle until the bugger launched it.

Plus here is the main reason. There had to be a logical way for Anakin to blow up the TF cruiser. It was part of his hero archetype.

 

There's another element to Qui-Gon's choice of bringing Anakin along with him to Naboo, and it's that Anakin's the Chosen One. It may be fair to assume Qui-Gon believed Anakin would be able to take care of himself. In fact, if Qui-Gon was so stubborn with his belief (which is quite possible), there's the notion that Anakin is literally invincible for the time being, because he has a prophecy to fullfil. Quite a wonderful loophole. I'm not suggesting this was Qui-Gon's reasoning, but he most likely did believe Anakin would be able to keep himself safe.

As well, Qui-Gon chose to bring Anakin along with him; I doubt he ever concidered leaving him on Coruscant. He wanted Anakin to watch and learn first hand the ways of the Jedi. Qui-Gon may have been wreckless, he may have been idiotic, and both of these traits may have been seen in his choice of bringing Anakin with, but it was a choice.

 

Ok, some interesting replies, and I'll deal with the en masse again

1) Is there anyone that believes that QGJ and OB1 represent the "full resources" of the JC?

2) The fact that the Jedi were sent in secret to Naboo is immaterial to the Queen. The fact is that, when challenged, she didn't even attempt to present any evidence. not the testimony of the Jedi, not any evidence that might be stored on her ship. Nothing. If she believes her people are dying, why doesn't she try and bring some proof to the table?

3) Once again, I'm amazed that there are people who honestly believe that QGJ could think of no safer place to keep Anakin then the cockpit of a spaceship in the hanger of a besieged palace on a occupied planet. Why couldn't he have left Anakin at the Jedi Temple? What, it was impossible for QGJ to a least ASK the JC to look after Anakin until he returned? Why couldn't he have left Anakin with one of the Queen's handmaidens on Coruscant?

4) I love the scene in which DM faces QGJ and OB1, but the fact remains that they made NO ATTEMPT to gain ANY information from him.

Oh, and as we have now strayed into the territory of "bad plot devices", I'd love someone to explain to me why, when her fighter pilots are going up against an overwhelmingly large force, and the Gungan army are heavily outnumbered by the Droid Army, and TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, does the Queen, when faced with a single guy in a black robe (Who the QGJ and OB1 say they will deal with) decide to, and I quote, "Take the long way" to the throne room????

Honestly! She really says that! When DM has that silent face off with QGJ and OB1, she turns and says "We'll take the long way"!!!! Yeah, take your time love! There's no hurry

 

You want plot holes? How about Bruce Willis being dead for a whole year and not realising it? I'm glad Lucas is a better writer than that.

 

Darth-Stryphe,

>>>>As far as I know, no one has questioned the Chosen One has a plot hole, so I don't see the comparison.

This thread, Date Posted: 4/8 9:26am.

>>>>That's a good question, were the people dying? We know they were going to kill Sio, and Nute assured the Queen the people would suffer, so harm was meant to come to the people by way of the TF. In any event, what she brought before the senate was the illegal occuption of Naboo, not the attrosities, and the occuption was the truth.

Yes, but her vote of no confidence was because she believed that her people were dying, and their way of life was being destroyed, which wasn't actually true (I think.)

Sithchilde,

>>>1) Is there anyone that believes that QGJ and OB1 represent the "full resources" of the JC?

No, but I don't think that's all the Jedi planned to do about the Sith.

>>>>If she believes her people are dying, why doesn't she try and bring some proof to the table?

She has no proof, because none exists.

>>>>I'd love someone to explain to me why, when her fighter pilots are going up against an overwhelmingly large force, and the Gungan army are heavily outnumbered by the Droid Army, and TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, does the Queen, when faced with a single guy in a black robe (Who the QGJ and OB1 say they will deal with) decide to, and I quote, "Take the long way" to the throne room????

Yeah- she should have taken him on alone, shouldn't she...



As for Qui Gon taking Anakin, it's obvious that he SHOULD have kept him safely in a little box on Coruscant, where no-one could have hurt him, and then he could have quietly fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance to the Force without ever being in any danger.

 

Ok, some interesting replies, and I'll deal with the en masse again

1) Is there anyone that believes that QGJ and OB1 represent the "full resources" of the JC? >>

"Unravel the mystery" implies INVESTIGATION rather than ELIMINATION. You don't send in heavy tanks on a recon mission, so to speak.

2) The fact that the Jedi were sent in secret to Naboo is immaterial to the Queen. The fact is that, when challenged, she didn't even attempt to present any evidence. not the testimony of the Jedi, not any evidence that might be stored on her ship. Nothing. If she believes her people are dying, why doesn't she try and bring some proof to the table? >>

As if no one else had heard of the invasion? I wouldn't think a planetary occupation hard to prove. She would expect the proof to be rather obvious.

3) Once again, I'm amazed that there are people who honestly believe that QGJ could think of no safer place to keep Anakin then the cockpit of a spaceship in the hanger of a besieged palace on a occupied planet. Why couldn't he have left Anakin at the Jedi Temple? What, it was impossible for QGJ to a least ASK the JC to look after Anakin until he returned? Why couldn't he have left Anakin with one of the Queen's handmaidens on Coruscant? >>

The handmaidens were the Queen's bodyguards and as such, obligated to be in her presence.

4) I love the scene in which DM faces QGJ and OB1, but the fact remains that they made NO ATTEMPT to gain ANY information from him.>>

What were they supposed to do? Strike up a conversation? Tie him to a chair, take him to the police station, and point a blaster at his head until he confessed?

Oh, and as we have now strayed into the territory of "bad plot devices", I'd love someone to explain to me why, when her fighter pilots are going up against an overwhelmingly large force, and the Gungan army are heavily outnumbered by the Droid Army, and TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, does the Queen, when faced with a single guy in a black robe (Who the QGJ and OB1 say they will deal with) decide to, and I quote, "Take the long way" to the throne room???? >>

Because she wanted to avoid contact with the enemy. Smart thing when you are grossly outnumbered. In combat, the time needed to do something is inversely proportional to enemy resistance along the route.

-Tim

 

Somerandomnerd and Darth_Tim

Er, what the heck are you guys on about? Honestly, your replies are...I'm speechless!

SRN First

1) It might not have been the only thing they planned to do, but they correctly guessed that DM would be there! So, why not send a couple more Jedi with OB1 and QGJ to help subdue DM?

2) NO PROOF EXISTS??? What about the testimony of a Jedi? What about evidence which may have been stored in the ships databanks? I'm not saying this would have been accepted as strong evidence, but she could have tried!

3) I didn't suggest the Queen take him on alone. If you hadn't noticed she did have about twenty people with blasters plus a couple of Jedi's! Why not just let the Jedi engage him and go past him?

4) I'm not suggesting that Anakin be safely hidden away forever. But the fact remains that QGJ took Anakin to Naboo, then took him to a besieged palace and then TOLD HIM TO HIDE! So again, if QGJ wanted him to hide from all those dangerous droids occupying Naboo, why the hell did he bring him to Naboo in the first place?

DT

1) Your reply is nonsensical. In case you didn't notice, Darth Maul WAS elimanted! Maybe, if the JC had sent a couple more Jedi, he could have been subdued!

2) Obviously it wasn't readily accepted that NAboo had been invaded. That being the case, why didn't she at least ATTEMPT to bring forth some evidence?

3) Maybe...but maybe the Queen could have commanded one of them to stay? Anyway, that's just one option, there are many others.

4) What were they supposed to do??? They were supposed to try and find out more about this guy! He's the key to unravelling the mystery of the Sith, for crying out loud. Look, I'm not saying that trying to get information out of this guy would have been easy...hell, I'd say it would be nigh on impossible, but they could have at least made some attempt.


You say the Queen didn't want to waste time engaging the enemy. She didn't have to engage him. The Jedi engaged him. The fact remains that she took one look at one guy in dark robes and decided to take a longer route to get to the throne room. Why? The more time she spends getting to the throne room, the greater the cahnce of failure!

 

Sithchilde: 1) Is there anyone that believes that QGJ and OB1 represent the "full resources" of the JC?

Go-Mer: Not that I am aware of. TPM never suggests that they are.

Sithchilde: 2) "The fact that the Jedi were sent in secret to Naboo is immaterial to the Queen. The fact is that, when challenged, she didn't even attempt to present any evidence. Not the testimony of the Jedi, not any evidence that might be stored on her ship. Nothing. If she believes her people are dying, why doesn't she try and bring some proof to the table?

Go-Mer: As I said, the Chancellor asked her to defer until they could organize a comittie to investigate the claims. She would have had to wait for this comittee to be formed before she or the Jedi would be allowed to testify further. When she realized Palpatine was right about the burocrats, she followed his advice to vote Vallorum out of office, because she thought that was her best bet.

Sithchilde: 3) "Once again, I'm amazed that there are people who honestly believe that QGJ could think of no safer place to keep Anakin then the cockpit of a spaceship in the hanger of a besieged palace on a occupied planet. Why couldn't he have left Anakin at the Jedi Temple?"

Go-Mer: As I have said above, they don't run a day care center for rejected Jedi hopefuls.

Sithchilde: "What, it was impossible for QGJ to a least ASK the JC to look after Anakin until he returned?"

Go-Mer: Perhaps, but the other thing is Qui-Gon is hoping to teach Anakin by having him observe him on his missions.

Sithchilde: "Why couldn't he have left Anakin with one of the Queen's handmaidens on Coruscant?"

Go-Mer: The Queen's handmaidens were going back to Naboo with the Queen. Man I can't beleive you even suggested that. Now who's "reaching" here?

Sithchilde: 4) "I love the scene in which DM faces QGJ and OB1, but the fact remains that they made NO ATTEMPT to gain ANY information from him."

Go-Mer: When would they have been able to do that?

Sithchilde: "Oh, and as we have now strayed into the territory of "bad plot devices", I'd love someone to explain to me why, when her fighter pilots are going up against an overwhelmingly large force, and the Gungan army are heavily outnumbered by the Droid Army, and TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, does the Queen, when faced with a single guy in a black robe (Who the QGJ and OB1 say they will deal with) decide to, and I quote, "Take the long way" to the throne room???? Honestly! She really says that! When DM has that silent face off with QGJ and OB1, she turns and says "We'll take the long way"!!!! Yeah, take your time love! There's no hurry."

Go-Mer: Because a seriously deadly Sith Lord was blocking the "short" way? I know it is a stretch, but roll with me here (sarcasm).

P.S. You have to want to understand the film. You seem more inclined to misunderstand the film.

 

Adali, I didn't get the point about why the Chancellor couldn't have the Jedi reporting to the Senate on the Naboo invasion from EU sources... I got it from the movie itself. Like I've said before, the political storyline was one of the few areas of TPM which I felt Lucas did well with as far as keeping the plot tied together.

I still maintain that if Lucas or any other filmmaker relies on spin-off novels to fill the holes in his film's plot or to develop the film's main characters, then he's failed. And I still tend to regard the EU as extraneous, sometimes enjoyable material which is connected to the films in franchise name only.

 

You say the Queen didn't want to waste time engaging the enemy. She didn't have to engage him. The Jedi engaged him. The fact remains that she took one look at one guy in dark robes and decided to take a longer route to get to the throne room. Why? The more time she spends getting to the throne room, the greater the cahnce of failure! >>

Well, 1) she succeeded in getting to the Throne room and capturing Gunray and 2) what was Amidala going to do against Maul? The Jedi, in fighting him, prevented him from interfering in the Queen's mission: capturing the Viceroy.

-Tim

 

...and I quote, "Take the long way" to the throne room???? >>

She also said to Panaka (while fighting the droids just before they used the ascension guns) "We don't have time for this" [fighting the droids]

-Tim

 

Go-Mer-Tonic

dealing with your replies one at a time.

1) My point was that, at this time, the Sith have apparently re-emerged after 1000 years of presumed extinction. Also, according to Yoda, there are only two Sith, a master and an apprentice. Given this is the case, and given the Jedi Council's (correct) belief that one of these two Sith will show up on Naboo, and given the fact that the Mace Windu has said that they will use their "full resources" to unravel this mystery, why did the Jedi Council send only one Jedi Knight and One Padawan to Naboo?

2) The Chancellor made that request AFTER the Queen had failed to present any proof of invasion. Watch the scene again. She had an oppurtunity to say something, instead she stood there saying nothing. It was only after this silence that talk of forming a committee started.

3) Yes, you did say the Jedi don't run a day-care centre for rejected Jedi hopefuls. I read it the first time. However, the point I was making is that QGJ could have found a safer place to put Anakin then a cockpit in the middle of a battle on an occupied planet.

4) I KNOW the Queen's handmaidens went back to Naboo. How, exactly, is it reaching to suggest that the Queen might have allowed one of them to stay behind and take care of Anakin (a child who she did seem found of) and thus ensure he didn't get shot and killed on Naboo?

Hardly what I'd call "reaching". More like "suggesting a possible alternative".

5) When would they have been able to attempt to get some information from DM????

Have you read any of my previous posts? I'll say it again, for your sake. How about when they first saw him? WATCH THE SCENE AGAIN. They stand there, IN SILENCE. Then, they SILENTLY remove their cloaks. Then they stand there and watch as DM gets out his lightsaber and twirls it around. Then, STILL WITHOUT A WORD, they light up their own sabers.

That whole scene is their opportunity to at least ATTEMPT to get some information.

5) Ok, let's just assume that the Queen knew that the the guy in the hall was a Deadly Sith Lord. Lets assume that QGJ gave a physical description of DM to the Queen ("Scary guy in black, face like a ladybird"), and said "He's a seriously deadly Sith Lord" Heck, lets assume that the Queen would know what a Sith Lord was and what one could do or, if she didn't know, QGJ told her.

When she sees him "blocking her way" she has a Jedi Knight, another Jedi apprentice, and, what, 15, 20 armed guards with her? The two Jedi with her are going to "engage" with this guy anyway, so why the hell shouldn't she proceed along her original route? Watch the scene again. QGJ says something like "Leave him (DM) to me" the Queen nods and says "We'll take the long way" WHY??

If QGJ and OB1 are going to "deal" with DM then there is NO NEED to go the long way.


Oooh, I love P.S's.


"P.S. You have to want to understand the film. You seem more inclined to misunderstand the film"

That's so sweet...

Of course, the fact that I am asking questions on a thread designed to answer these questions in no way indicates a willingness to "understand" the film. Roll with me here (sarcasm)

If I have "misunderstood" the film, then, as an adult, and a person who listens to others, is capable of weighing up evidence and changing my mind, the answers provided on this thread should help me to "understand" it.

However, as a reasonable person, I am also capable of understanding that the problems might not just be in my mind. It is possible to have understood the film and still think that George Lucas has employed a few weak plot devices to ensure things keep moving.

 

<Malthus comes out of the bitter-sphere>

THESE ARE NOT PLOT HOLES, they're PLOT DEVICES. You may not like them, but they're not PLOT HOLES.

<Malthus returns to the bitter-sphere>