Plot holes? The final chapter.

Sithchilde:

1) Because the Council naively assumed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan would be enough on Naboo. Maybe more Jedi were sent after the two left Coruscant, planning on helping out, but Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan busted back with Amidala to Naboo ASAP.

2) Because she is an inexperienced child, being maniplulated by the most evil man in the galaxy. Maybe you're supposed to see her have the chance to provide proof, but instead of doing so, she freaks out and follows Palpatine's suggestions.

3) Because Qui-Gon wanted to bring Anakin along with him to Naboo; possibly a poor decision, but it did work out quite well in the end.

4) Same reason as above.

5) Because both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan there was no way Maul would say a word. They knew there was no point in trying - they just knew. They may have wanted to try, but it was pointless because this double-lightsaber weilding Sith wants your throats slit, pronto. Knowing this, they fight.

Plus, Amidala has no idea which way the fight was going to go; she may have incorrectly assumed the two Jedi would be able to force Maul backwards, further into the path she wanted to travel. Time was of the essence, so instead of wasting possible time for the Jedi to move Maul out of the way, she chose another route.

 

Well Sithchild I guess it seems you are so weary about there possibly being problems that you manufacture them just in case.

 

No need to "manufacture" problems where TPM is concerned!

(HOY HOYYYY!!!!!)

 

That's my point. If you guys would quit going out of your way to manufacture problems, there wouldn't be any.

 

Wow, did this thread take off, or what? I still concur with the honorable Malthus on the plot holes though, most of this thread is about plot devices. Calling them plot holes is in my opinion malevolent nitpicking.

Go-Mer-Tonic:
The reason they told them not to make any transmissions of any kind was because they never expected anyone with Force powers tracing them.

For a normal being, a single trace would only get them pointed in the right direction, while the second signal from a return message would pinpoint their exact location.

That's why the Nimodians tell Sidious that it is impossible to trace the ship. Sidious tells him "not for the Sith".

Could you please tell me where you got this information about the traces? 'Cuz it sounds as if taken straight from the "Force-Tracing 101" textbook...

1. The ship is lost. The TF state they can't locate it because it is out of their range. Sidious claims "not for a sith", and that Maul will find the lost ship.

So according to Sidious, it's possible for a sith to track the ship down. This could mean anything, but in general I guess it means that with all the resources a sith has it at his disposal tracking it is possible.

Does it mean tracking it using the Force? Perhaps. It is a explanation, I give you that. But doesn't it make you wonder whatever happened to this ability in the future? If all it would take to find the rebel base on Yavin and Hoth, or locate the MF was an intergalactic one-way phone call from a sith, why was this never heard of considering big daddy Sith was in charge of the Empire? Sure, there might be explanations for this too, but a force-tracing ability is absurdly powerful, and will paint any screenwriter into a corner.

I find that the most reasonable explanation is that Maul as a sith has lots of "ordinary" resources and has thus a chance of finding the ship.

Besides, strictly speaking the TF didn't say they couldn't track them, only that they were out of the TF's range, possibly as in "The TF had no presence where they were". Maul on the other hand, being a sith and carrying probe droids, would be able to find them wherever the TF could track them to.

2. A message is sent to the ship on Tatooine. Panaka says it is from Naboo, and we don't see anybody object to it being displayed. Sio Bibble delivers the message, asking the Queen to reply. ObiWan immediately tells them to keep silent, in words that cannot be misunderstood. Later, QuiGon confirms Obis suspicion about the connection trace "bait".

What are we seeing here? Many things -
A) Either there is no chance of someone tracing a one-way transmission, or no-one, not even ObiWan, is aware that there is. Apparently QuiGon isn't either.

B) ObiWan dismisses very quickly the chance that the message is authentic. I got the feeling that it was for show, discouraging the crew from going against his order, but that he privately wasn't really sure what he was doing. Nevertheless, QuiGon encourages him, so he (and we) ends up believing he suspected the right thing, and made the right call.

3 No-one opposed ObiWans order to keep "radio-silence".

All in all, except for the possibility that the movie is pulling the viewer's leg, the message sent to the ship was meant as a bait for establishing a connection trace. One that both QuiGon and ObiWan thought impossible to establish unless a reply was sent. Think about what Sio Bibble said - he wanted her to contact him. He didn't ask her to come back to Naboo. He (or should I say TF and the Sith?) wanted a reply.
We are also to believe that no reply was sent.

3. Maul is on Coruscant, telling Sidious that he knows that they are on Tatooine provided "the trace is correct".

Ok, so there was a trace made. All reason points to the conclusion that it was made using the Bibble message. It was maybe sent by Maul, but could also have been sent by the TF (as hypothesized above)

Here's my interpretation of what is seen in the movie:
1. Bibble's message is indeed "booby-trapped" in some way
2.

 

Complaining about the plotholes in TPM is like a Titanic survivor complaining about the on-board entertainment: Plotholes or no, the movie was one big disaster.

 

If holes in the plot were the biggest problem with TPM, well lets just say id be spending more time in the Gushers sanctuary...

Besides, any Gusher can convert "plothole" into "plot device" by simply looking to AOTC and saying "all will be revealed".

 

"That's my point. If you guys would quit going out of your way to manufacture problems, there wouldn't be any."

Nope. That's not the point at all. The point is that TPM's screenplay has enough inherent problems WITHOUT our help that we don't need to "manufacture" any...

 

Rabid_Balding_Ewok;

Cloak of Deception was written after the release of TPM, yes. But it was written on direct orders from Lucas and the author had meetings with him as well as complete access to TPM material and the in-progress script of EpisodeII. You don't have to believe me, and I don't have any quotes ready. But there's no way George could have written TPM without figuring out how the TF got to be where they were and what the underlying conflicts and tensions were in the Senate. It is this backstory that sets the premises for how Valorum falls from power and how Palpatine comes to rise as his successor. Plot-wise probably the most important thing of the film, imo.

Pat; No, I know what you said. And I know from experience that you and me don't agree about TPM's merits and its (relative) dependence on the two books. Which is fair enough. Although those who haven't read CoD have no idea what they're missing.

 

Adali:
I am reading CoD right now, and I couldn't agree with you more. I've read 7 chapters, and so far it's an excellent read, not to mention the way it is about to set the tables.

Björn

 

If you guys would quit going out of your way to manufacture problems, there wouldn't be any.

Go-Mer, are you trying to be funny? LOL! Or do you mean "you guys" as in the people listing their supposed plot holes that really aren't plot holes?

 

Adali, I do enjoy some of the EU books, and will probably read Cloak when it comes out in paperback. I just don't believe that a good filmmaker leaves it to third-party spinoff novels to tell his story. I believe Lucas is far better than that and this is why I have such a problem with the tatty nature of TPM. If I didn't know he was capable of much better work, I'd just chalk it all up as "par for the course."

 

Okay, label them what you want, but it's obvious that most of the people here have decided to discuss the finer plot points of TPM, whether they are plot holes or plot devices. I don't see a problem with that. I mean, if a guy wrote "monkeys" in the thread title, but started talking about "apes", would you jump on him?

I think that Captain Moron, Panaka, sent a reply message because he was pissed off at the jedi. What a jerk.

 

Dacks, I'm sorry if I offended you. I was just concerned that others would assume from the arguments that the points made were plot holes, and that just isn't the case with a couple notable exceptions (detailed in a previous post of mine). I believe OrlandoT specifically wanted to address plot HOLES, and if I had to guess, OrlandoT doesn't want to discuss a general list of TPM's plot problems (unless they are holes) in here.

I could be wrong about OrlandoT's intent, in which case I'll apologize for that as well as offending you.

 

No offense taken.

I'm just more interested in discussion, even if it doesn't stay completely on track with the thread title. I can't stand those people who jump in and yell "redundant thread" just because the poster decided not to check five pages worth of forums.

Do they close basher threads in here? Because otherwise I'd start a thread on "TPM's weak plot devices".

 

We have a whole Basher's Sanctuary thread for folks like you and me. Check it out.

In addition, if you want to discuss/debate, Go-Mer-Tonic has started a Gushers's Supplemental thread to ours, where debate is freely accepted. Just be careful, my pal Go-Mer-Tonic is very good at making it seem as if you don't like things because you don't understand them.



(hey, Gomer, had to make a joke)

I can't stand those people who jump in and yell "redundant thread" just because the poster decided not to check five pages worth of forums.

I know, I hate that. Sometimes they can be quite rude about it, too. I am the same way, man (not the rude part... the "can't stand those people" part)

 

It only seems that way?

 

>>>>1) My point was that, at this time, the Sith have apparently re-emerged after 1000 years of presumed extinction. Also, according to Yoda, there are only two Sith, a master and an apprentice. Given this is the case, and given the Jedi Council's (correct) belief that one of these two Sith will show up on Naboo, and given the fact that the Mace Windu has said that they will use their "full resources" to unravel this mystery, why did the Jedi Council send only one Jedi Knight and One Padawan to Naboo? <<<

First of all, the one Padawan was just inches away to becoming a Jedi. Second, who says all their resources were used to fight. I?m sure they investigated.

>>>>2) The Chancellor made that request AFTER the Queen had failed to present any proof of invasion. Watch the scene again. She had an oppurtunity to say something, instead she stood there saying nothing. It was only after this silence that talk of forming a committee started.<<<<<

She was never asked. Watch again. The queen never even got to finish her speech. Moment of silence? You mean when Palpatine is manipulating her into doing his bidding? BTW, the talk of forming a committee started in the middle of the Queen's allegations.


>>>3) Yes, you did say the Jedi don't run a day-care centre for rejected Jedi hopefuls. I read it the first time. However, the point I was making is that QGJ could have found a safer place to put Anakin then a cockpit in the middle of a battle on an occupied planet. <<<<

The ship was pretty safe, until Anakin and R2 took off. Again, Qui-Gon was reckless. Taking a kid into a war zone is consistent with his character. Heck he let Anakin risk his life in a pod race.

>>>>4) I KNOW the Queen's handmaidens went back to Naboo. How, exactly, is it reaching to suggest that the Queen might have allowed one of them to stay behind and take care of Anakin (a child who she did seem found of) and thus ensure he didn't get shot and killed on Naboo?

Hardly what I'd call "reaching". More like "suggesting a possible alternative".<<<<

More like re-writing TPM. The queen had no say as to what happened to Anakin. It was Qui's decision not hers.

>>>5) When would they have been able to attempt to get some information from DM????

Have you read any of my previous posts? I'll say it again, for your sake. How about when they first saw him? WATCH THE SCENE AGAIN. They stand there, IN SILENCE. Then, they SILENTLY remove their cloaks. Then they stand there and watch as DM gets out his lightsaber and twirls it around. Then, STILL WITHOUT A WORD, they light up their own sabers.

That whole scene is their opportunity to at least ATTEMPT to get some information. <<<<

And thereby ruining the best scene in the movie. The way they communicated silently was priceless. There was no need for words. No need for questions. One look at maul and it was obvious this guy was not in the mood to talk. Great scene which some would ruin just to have Maul speak more lines.

>>>5) Ok, let's just assume that the Queen knew that the the guy in the hall was a Deadly Sith Lord. Lets assume that QGJ gave a physical description of DM to the Queen ("Scary guy in black, face like a ladybird"), and said "He's a seriously deadly Sith Lord" Heck, lets assume that the Queen would know what a Sith Lord was and what one could do or, if she didn't know, QGJ told her.

When she sees him "blocking her way" she has a Jedi Knight, another Jedi apprentice, and, what, 15, 20 armed guards with her? The two Jedi with her are going to "engage" with this guy anyway, so why the hell shouldn't she proceed along her original route? Watch the scene again. QGJ says something like "Leave him (DM) to me" the Queen nods and says "We'll take the long way" WHY??

If QGJ and OB1 are going to "deal" with DM then there is NO NEED to go the long way. <<<<<

Here's what you have to keep in mind. They were fighting droids. Maul never attacked the queen. If he was a droid, I can see the troops opening fire, but he didn?t and was humanoid. Remember also that they had witnessed

 

>>>I could be wrong about OrlandoT's intent, in which case I'll apologize for that as well as offending you.<<<


I did want to see if anyone came up with any convincing plot holes (not yet) but I don't mind the discussion diverging. I think it's safe to say we're all having a blast in this trivial debate.

 

If Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had spoken to Maul, it wouldn't have necessarily ruined a great scene. What about ESB? That duel was great, because of the talking.

But regardless, I don't think you can say "It might be a plot hole, but it made for a great scene!". That doesn't really answer the question. (I'm not debating whether or not it is a plot hole, just saying that's a pretty weak reply.)

 

>>>>But regardless, I don't think you can say "It might be a plot hole, but it made for a great scene!". That doesn't really answer the question. (I'm not debating whether or not it is a plot hole, just saying that's a pretty weak reply.)<<<<


I don't mean it's a great scene because they light their lightsabers a certain way. It's a great scene because of the loud silence between both sides.
Here's what made it a cool scene for me. The characters communicated trough their expression, especially Maul. There was no question that this guy meant business. The hate in his eyes pretty much said all that he was ever going to divulge.

BTW, the dialogue between opponents in the OT was great. What I saw in TPM however was a silent communication between Sith and Jedi trough facial expression and body language.

 

Oh I know its a great scene. My point is this.

Whoever you replied to obviously thinks its a mistake that Qui-Gon and OB1 don't try to communicate with Maul. So by saying the scene was cool, that doesn't really refute his point.

 

>>>Whoever you replied to obviously thinks its a mistake that Qui-Gon and OB1 don't try to communicate with Maul. So by saying the scene was cool, that doesn't really refute his point.<<<

True, and I tried to express why I thought it was cool. Maul expression pretty much eliminated any thought of inquiry.

 

Fair enough. I can buy that.

 

Plot hole, plot device, major story continuity error, I don't know what you call this, but here it is ...

Yoda in TPM: "Always two there are ... " (AKA, the Rule of 2)

Vader in ESB: "If [Luke] can be turned, he could be a powerful ally."
Palpy: "Can it be done?"
Vader: "He will JOIN US, or die, my master."

The only ways this is not a plot hole or whatever: Yoda is wrong (a possibility, but unlikely since the TPM novel goes into such detail about the Rule of 2), or Anakin, in his X years as a Jedi and umpteen years as a Sith, somehow managed to never hear about the Rule of 2 (which is super hard to believe, since the Sith's re-appearance in TPM is like the biggest Jedi news in the last century and ALL Jedi would be on the lookout for the missing other Sith).

Aside from those two exceptions, what we have here is some kind of major writing failure. Under the Rule of 2, the moment Luke turns to the dark side, one of the three Sith MUST be killed. I'm sure some nut will swoop in and tell us that in ESB, Palpy and Vader are actually challenging each other (in code, no less!) and Vader is inexplicably tipping his hand to Palpy, but then Palpy comes across as a serious fool. Why would Palpy give Vader first dibs at Luke, especially considering that Luke is the one person in the galaxy Palpy fears?