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Discussion Poe Dameron & Rey and their dynamic moving forward in IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by Ben-Solo, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. mlsw

    mlsw Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 30, 2017
    How many evidences there were for Leia being a force sentive before the last scene of ep V?
    (and even that scene at that time wasn't a 100% proof of it). Zero.
    In comparison, there are far more "possible" hints for him in the movies only.

    Still I don't know and I won't bet that will be case.
    I just think, if they want to do it... there's enough set up.

    You may use not only his piloting skills, but for instance, the fact that he "understands" people.
    That is how Leia's force abilities have been shown so far, before Mary Poppins...

    To be clear: take the scene of him and Finn in TFA, he stares at Finn and then he says "you need a pilot"
    In TLJ seconds after his x-wing explodes, Finn comes and asks him if he is right, Poe says something
    about what the fleet has to do to, cut to Leia saying exactly the same words to Admiral Akbar.
    The same.
    We may bedate what was really going on with Holdo, but we cannot deny that Holdo was hiding something...
    And I think the novel is going to underline that he didn't trust her because he felt she was hiding something (at least that's what I read in the leaks)
    and that was.. true.

    That said, I still think the voices heard on that rebels episode, have to be put in context.
    And the context is the conflict between the dark and the light in that galaxy, and it's something
    that has to do with the Jedi vs Sith/whateverSnokeandKylo are and the Republic/Rebellion/Resistance vs empire/first order
    Leia, Jyn and Poe rapresent one side of the latter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  2. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    I don't think it's a comparable situation, since Leia being a Force user was a last minute retcon, not something ostensibly being seeded across the movies.

    Okay.

    Piloting maybe (although we know from Han that mad piloting skills do not require the Force). The latter seems like a stretch, since you don't need the Force to do that either.

    I respectfully submit that this is showing Finn to be a bad liar and nothing more.

    Could be magic, could just as easily be mundane.

    We'll see, although I think the movie set up Poe's conflict with Holdo well enough that the Force isn't needed.

    Million dollar question; are the voices of Force users only, or just figures involved in the events irregardless of medi-chlorian counts?

    I still honestly feel that there's no sold evidence to make Poe a Force user yet and I seriously doubt that his story lends itself to that. We will see though what the future brings.
     
  3. mlsw

    mlsw Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 30, 2017
    @WebLurker ...

    I was using a... paradox in fact.

    All I was trying to say was, it's not that there were hints or clues or anything pointing to Leia as a force sentive.
    Until the plan changed.
     
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  4. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    @mlsw .... I absolutely love the parallels you drew between the magnum opus and the character arcs in the last jedi (am not so familiar with alchemy exceptt from an esoteric/spiritual perspective). The writers of the sequel trilogy could definitely have been inspired by alchemy, what with the predominant use of black, white, yellow and red in the TFA poster....and, if you superimpose the Tree of Life pattern on the TLJ movie poster, the characters, location (Crait) and movie title coincidentally fall on the ten attributes (Sepiroth) along the tree. I have also noticed that the challenges faced by the characters correspond to their position on the tree.

    But going back to the subject of alchemy, the tree of life is supposed to help the alchemist as he undergoes the three stages of separation, decay and purification during the journey through the underground. It is curious that the 3 heroes undergo this exact scenario in the movie- separation (each has their own adventure), decay (their beliefs are shaken/shattered) and finally purification (discovery of purpose).

    On the topic of duality, Poe's pursuing the crystal fox/vulptex through the underground cave and then finding Rey is very much in line with the beliefs of paleolithic shamanistic religions and classical mystery cults,where rituals involved adepts going into dark underground sanctuaries often guided by animal spirits (while in a trance), emerging from it to and coming face to face with the divine. To ancient people, this is supposed to represent the re-birth of the sun after darkness, the return of spring after winter, the restoration of the health/well being of that particular tribe etc.

    While members of mystery cults rarely recorded their experiences, there is one extract from a work by Roman philosopher Apuleius: "I reached the boundary of death, and then I returned, carried through all the elements; in the middle of the night I saw the sun blazing with bright light; I approached the gods below and the gods above face to face, and worshiped them from nearby."

    These lines could easily be applied to Poe's awestruck expression when he first emerges from the dark cavern and sees Rey framed by floating boulders. The symbolism behind the mysteries was to enact a time of renewal, the birth of light after darkness, a sacred marriage, a union of opposites etc. Rey and Poe's meeting (and subsequent interactions) could represent duality in a number of ways, whether male/female, jedi/republic...but this duality also portends a new cycle and positive beginnings.

    @Darkspellmaster mentioned how Poe and Jyn (Chirrut's voice can also be heard) are the only characters other than confirmed force users whose voices are heard by Ezra in the world between worlds in Star Wars Rebels....while I do concede it might not guarantee them being force users, I would say these three characters are at the very least force sensitive/attuned to the force.

    Take Jyn for example....while her mother Lyra Erso wasn't a runaway jedi in the final movie, she was drawn to locations where jedi collected kyber crystals (in the Catalyst novel) and she had links to the Coruscant Church of the force. Galen Erso was also influenced by the crystal he worked with, and could feel their energy, to the extent that he worked like a possessed person around them. Jyn wore a kyber with "Force" written on it (given by her mother), and some have speculated that it amplified her inherent connection to the force. For instance, when Bodhi was concerned about the codes he gave the imperials to reach Scarif, Jyn closes her eyes, clutches the kyber crystal and somehow the imperials allow them through. Even Chirrut senses the kyber on Jyn (and her latent force connection) and follows her to Scarif for the mission.

    Speaking of Chirrut, he is guided by the vibrations of his staff which is made from the burned wood of a Uneti/force tree topped with a kyber crystal. He recognizes the darkness surrounding Cassian on Eadu, and that he might be committing murder. In the Guardian of the Whills novel, he even senses sickness and when a person could be dying, he senses people's emotions and even arguably has a premonition to send most of the children of Jedah to safety before it gets destroyed. While he isn't a force user, he is attuned to the force.

    In Poe's case, his mother Shara had a powerful force object (the force tree) just like Lyra had the kyber...while possessing the tree itself doesn't guarantee force powers, it is interesting that Luke gave Shara the tree in Shattered Empire just after they talked about her son.

    Poe also has a strong belief and understanding of the force just like both Chirrut and Jyn. He also senses emotions such as the good in Finn when they first meet, and that Holdo is hiding something (as @mlsw pointed out). The Before the Awakening novel is more blatant about it as there is a scene where he senses Leia's sadness which he compares to a blanket wrapped around her which was similar to the loss he and his father felt losing Shara Bey. He even senses that they must follow that yellow eyed crystal fox to safety on Crait. Combine that with his crazy flying abilities, his withstanding all the torture methods of the FO and even resisting Kylo's mind probe for some time despite being injured, how he never misses a shot (blowing up the FO installations on Takodana) and he made a near impossible shot that blew up SKB, and it is pretty obvious there is more to him than meets the eye.

    While this doesn't mean Poe becomes a jedi, I would say the evidence is strong that he is force sensitive. Since Poe is technically Leia's apprentice and Rey is continuing Luke's jedi legacy, it is natural for them to form a strong bond.

    I'm not put off by the possibility of the Last Jedi novel not exploring their meetup in detail as it would be too much of a blatant contradiction with the TFA novel, and they are going to explore it in the upcoming Poe Dameron comics anyway.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
    mlsw likes this.
  5. mlsw

    mlsw Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 30, 2017
    @panki exactly.
    In addition the hero’s journey as Campbell pointed out
    it’s always “the same” no matter the specific culture
    just because as Jung pointed out before him... archetypies
    are always the same, therefore symbolisms are always
    the same or very similar, because the process of identification =
    the resolving of the the duality, always works the same.

    And it’s not by chance that Jung himself spoke about alchemy
    and borrowed alchemy terms to describe his theories... because
    from his point of view alchemists unconsciously understood
    / spoke about the process of identification.

    So yeah. But sure there are in this movie specific imagines and themes taken from that specif tradition.
    (I suspect that even the space cow and her green milk
    is taken from there).
    In this context... no matter the details, the question is: who’s
    going to be born again?

    Luke gave us the answer, the movie finale gave us the answer
    clearly: the rebellion is reborn and I won’t be the last Jedi.
    Then the force sensitive kid with the rebellion ring.
    Make not mistakes. The answer is that.

    So sure, one may think that the end game is dark side
    of the force + dark side of the force as the “resolution
    of that duality”. It’s fair.

    But I suspect that it’s teased to be be misleading, on purpose.

    That the point is/ will be Light and Dark have to existe - them both - because their dynamic
    allows the cycles of death and rebirth.

    I think this could be the subtle but substantial difference.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  6. CosmicDust

    CosmicDust Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2017
    Does anyone know what the novelization has for Poe and Rey meeting?
     
  7. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2018
    Carrie Fisher in a new BTS reinforces that Leia sees Han in Poe.

     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  8. Baron_Papanerd

    Baron_Papanerd Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    I think Poe, just like Han Solo, is meant to be the common man (albeit with mad piloting skills:cool:) of the ST.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  9. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2018
    And is also meant to bring more umph to him saying "I know" to Rey cause him like Han said the iconic line. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  10. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There is no reason to believe that the line has an ulterior meaning in context.
     
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  11. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Poe has been compared to Han on more than one occasion, has similar characteristics and even dresses in a similar manner.
    There is enough reason for people to see a connection between one of Han's most iconic lines and the same line being said by Poe (both using this line in the second part of a trilogy as well), especially since Oscar Isaac himself did mention that it was their version of "I know".
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  12. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2018
    Have any spoilers come out from the official novel?
     
  13. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    "As Leia and Chewbacca arrived, Poe looked up from talking with Rey, smiling as the Wookie reached out a long arm to pull the pilot close."

    This is the only Rey-Poe interaction in the novel.

    I kid you not.
     
  14. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2018
    Well then I guess the official script is what we wait for. They did tweet before the novel came out that they left things very vague in case JJ has a different vision. It's weird they didn't even show us the introduction. An official novel would show us everything that was seen in the movie.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  15. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Not relevant.

    Not in the movie.
     
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  16. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I feel like Rey is on the Bachelorette show.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  17. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    But who will she give Rose Tico to?
     
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  18. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    She can do that? I feel like it's Finn or Poe. What are the other options?

    Rey is like, "Rose you get whatever man I don't choose."

    Rose: ...

    Next Star Wars: Rey and Rose, Civil War.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  19. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    It was a joke about the way they give roses at the ceremonies to the winners in the bachelor and bachelorette.

    roses = Rose Tico

    Obviously, my joke sucks ☹️
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  20. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    It is relevant when the cast of a movie and marketing points in that direction.

    It might not be in the movie, but the actor kept this in mind while performing that scene, hence again pertinent.

    I don't think Rey is being paired with multiple characters on this thread. ;)

    We haven't seen many space weddings in canon, but I am assuming that some parent figure will give Rose away... Rey is a little too young so Leia maybe? [face_thinking] ;)
    Maybe Rey can officiate in her capacity as jedi in training, or Poe can officiate like he did for Snap and Kare's wedding. :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  21. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Han Solo and Poe Dameron are different characters. Parallels doesn't mean that they'll follow the exact same path.

    The TLJ line and the ESB line have totally different contexts and totally different histories with the characters involved. There is zero reason to match the two up as meaning the same thing.
     
  22. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2018
    That is very very true. I can't wait to get the movie so we can list all the parallels and movie/marketing directions.
     
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  23. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Two characters having similarities doesn't mean their story arcs are identical.... I definitely don't want Poe skewered and tossed into an abyss by his child in his later years (not that I wanted it for Han either [face_bleh]).

    I would say that is your interpretation.... obviously Oscar Isaac thought differently since he said it was their version of the famous line. :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  24. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Nah. I just haven't actually watched the show.
     
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  25. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Right. But still, I don't see it as compelling evidence that Poe and Rey are going to be the sequel's Han and Leia just because Poe is a little like Han in some aspects.

    If that was then intent, then the scene makes no sense.
     
    IncessantRamblings likes this.