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Discussion Poe Dameron & Rey and their dynamic moving forward in IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by Ben-Solo, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    As the scene is right at the end of the movie, am sure the context (whatever it might be) will be clarified in the next movie....in the meantime, I'll go with what Oscar Isaac had in mind for the scene. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  2. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    Maybe it's the old Protestant background in me, but I've always found sola scriptura to be the only reasonable way to examine shared universe settings.
     
  3. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 11, 2016
    Having come from an Eastern Orthodox background with some exposure to heterodox faiths, I've noticed that sola scriptura falls short as the canon i.e. the movie can be interpreted by each viewer through their own lens. :) Hence, taking the example of theology, people read the interpretations of religious scholars and religious traditions to get clearer understanding.

    Transposing this onto Star Wars- SW is all about tradition. There are certain callbacks and certain lines that make their way into multiple media ("I've got a bad feeling about this" or the Wilhem scream). "I know" is one such line....and if there was any doubt about its context, the recent Storms of Crait comic had the same "I know" line stated by Leia to a smiling Han beside the Millennium Falcon as they were fleeing Crait to escape the imperials (and there is no "I love you" preceding it like in ESB).

    So in addition to the movie scene, we have a secondary canon source i.e a comic where the line is used in a setting near identical to the TLJ one and Han is wearing the same costume as Poe. And as I said before, Oscar Isaac himself mentioned that this was their version of the ESB line.

    So we have a canon scene with the line, we have a secondary scene with the same line and same setting, and we have the actor who delivered the line saying he had the line from ESB in mind for the scene.

    That being said, it is entirely possible that they don't take this route in episode 9....but until then, this interpretation is definitely on the table.[face_devil]
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  4. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Having come from an Eastern Orthodox background with some exposure to heterodox faiths, I've noticed that sola scriptura falls short as the canon i.e. the movie can be interpreted by each viewer through their own lens. :) Hence, taking the example of theology, people read the interpretations of religious scholars and religious traditions to get clearer understanding.[/quote]

    Fair enough that people than interpret things differently and that studying what others think is extremely useful. The thing is, going by Judeo-Christian theology, the Bible and it's text is infallible via divine intervention and inspiration. Commentaries, scholarly studies, etc. are not. So, by the sola scriptura reasoning, while other sources may be useful, the original text itself is the final authority on the Judeo-Christian faiths. (I think it helps that the essential points of the religions, such as the Resurrection in the case of Christians, are pretty clearly defined in the Scriptures. At the end of the day, wether one believes in tra

    Putting that framework onto something like a shared universe, the authorities overseeing this stuff are going to change and authorial intent will differ (like how Rian Johnson went in different directions that J.J. Abrams would've had he directed TLJ). With that in mind, I tend to be pretty cautious about "word of God" in these cases (like how Johnson has made it clear that what he intended as to the meanings of TLJ could be ignored in Episode 9), since, at the end of the day, the works themselves are the only things that don't change (not counting reboots and retcons). Not sure if that makes any sense or if that's a good viewpoint, but that's how I see things.

    That is a fair point. Star Wars does engage in a lot of meta humor and reusing or remaking lines and scenes to make the movies rhyme. I'm not sure I'm convinced, but I do find it more convincing than things like the tree from the comic or the ring from the visual guide.

    I guess from a in-universe standpoint, I'd wonder if the phrase means the same thing to Poe that it does to Han or Leia. If you think about it, "I know" is a pretty common thing to say (like "I have a plan" from Guardians of the Galaxy).

    I suppose I could play devil's advocate and point out that not every repeated line in Star Wars is intentional. Both Leia and Ackbar say the "it's a trap" line in ESB and ROTJ, but, so far as I know, it was just a coincidence. While Isaac going on record that there was supposed to be a connection of some kind does shift weight away from this idea (as does the historical significance of the line to the franchise), it still seems possible that nothing will come of the line (or that Abrams will chose to go a different route).

    Did Isaac indicate if the intent was to communicate that Poe likes Rey or if it was just an in-joke of the line without the romantic intent, if that makes any sense? I'd also be curious if this was Isaac's view on the line or if it was what Johnson had in mind. Knowing the full backstory would be useful in making sense of it all.

    The one thing I would say is that I feel that the Poe and Rey route seems problematic given that there's no context. The characters haven't interacted at all prior, their most important relationships are with other characters (Finn and Kylo Ren for Rey, Finn and Leia for Poe), and outside of the reuse of the line, there's no indication that Poe and Rey are attracted to each other. Like you said, they could go this route, but does it make sense that some people like me can look at the situation and feel that it's not a concrete case, or at least doesn't seem like it's been given the proper setup to make sense?
     
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  5. Ben-Solo

    Ben-Solo Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2017
    Since it's a pretty common phrase; or so some say "I know" exactly how many times has that term been used in any context besides in Empire Strikes Back and The Last Jedi? (I know the answer) now as to the meaning behind it and the context moving forward we will probably need to wait and see (especially since the novelization wants to remain vague in this area) hopefully though the official script adds depth to the scene eventually.

    I do feel that on this forum as a whole the star-crossed lovers aspect is not going to be the case for all of Rey's interactions but it may occur with one; and the comparisons between Poe Dameron and Han Solo are being made at every opportunity by cast, and the director. The fun thing is as long as the bond continues to grow between them in the end we all win. So will the Resistance.
     
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  6. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Fair enough; future materials could do just about anything they want.

    I think the thing that's easy to forget is just because Poe is very much like Han doesn't mean he's going to do everything Han does, like get the girl; after all, Poe has distinct differences from Han as is.
     
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  7. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Actually its interesting that you bring up the question of the original text when it comes to Judeo- Christian belief....I find sola scriptura problematic as the question arises- what would you consider true scripture? Until the 325 Council of Nicea, there were many books that were considered scripture and some were subsequently deemed apocryphal removing problematic references...and in addition to this, there are many versions of the bible which are being used today and are considered scripture.

    So now bringing this thinking to the realm of Star Wars, I agree with your point about authorial intent and how each director puts his spin on things. So the question is- how much of other materials was connected to the movies in the case of episode 7 and episode 8?

    If Rian Johnson were directing episode 9, I would completely agree with your point of sticking to only the movies to interpret a scene as he subverted many of the things people expected based on what was seeded in other media and is rumored to not even have used the outline given to him by JJ Abrams. There were even rumors that some of the actors did not agree with the story directions Rian Johnson chose but went with it anyway. So in his case, it would make no sense to explore other media, listen to the actor's view points etc because only his interpretation would apply.

    But since he is not directing episode 9, his interpretations are scripture/canon for episode 8 only ...how JJ Abrams intends to approach canon is what counts i.e. will his movies have links to other media or ignore them like episode 8 did?

    For this we need to look at episode 7 and check if there was connectivity between the movies and other media. I believe there was a link between the various canon sources, with other media bolstering the movie.

    For instance, Rey developing fighting and flying abilities was explained in Before the Awakening and Rey's Survival Guide, Finn's past with Phasma and TR8R was explained in Before the Awakening and Finn's Story, Poe's mission to find Luke and the reason Leia is so fond of him was explained in the Before the Awakening, the Poe Dameron comics and Poe's Logbook, why C3PO greeted Han with a red arm was explored in a comic, details of Maz's castle and its occupants who we saw in the movie (such as Bazine who called the First Order to Takodana) were explored in a couple of books, Han's affection for Rey could be explained by a short story in SW Insider, where he mentored a girl pilot in the same age group....I could go on but the list would become very long. Similarly, if you listen to the interview with the cast before the Force Awakens, it is clear that JJ Abrams took their views into consideration. Anthony Daniels even mentioned how he is a collaborative director and Daisy Ridley cried when she heard JJ Abrams was directing episode 9. The simplest example of his taking actor's opinions on things was Harrison Ford chosing the name Ben for Kylo.

    I am therefore confident that details found in books, comics, games etc as well as the viewpoints of the actors will have an impact on episode 9....and this is why I take a rebel survivor escape scene on Crait in a comic, with Han Solo dressed in the same costume as Poe and Leia saying "I know" as a possible hint of something between Rey and Poe.

    As for Oscar Isaac's statement....while we don't have much details regarding the circumstances....but its highly unlikely that he would point out the line to Rian Johnson and call it their version of the ESB line just to be frivolous. And since he already shot a scene where he meets Rey in TFA with the same line (which was later deleted), he obviously must have had discussions regarding this line even back then.... hence some thought would have gone into his observation.

    I don't think the fact that Rey and Poe met at the end of episode 8 means a lack of context. Take ANH- Leia had barely any interaction with Han and yet at the beginning of ESB which was set a few years later, she was kissing him and saying she loved him.

    Similarly, TFA and TLJ together take place over around a week ( TFA was around 2 days long and TLJ happened for a similar time period considering the resistance was running out of fuel in 18 hours after leaving D'Qar)....so technically even Finn, Leia, Kylo and Luke know of Rey's existence for a week at the most (and I am being generous here).

    If there is a time gap between episode 8 and 9 (which would make sense considering the resistance is in bad shape and Rey needs to work on her skills), Rey and Poe would have more than enough time to get to know one another. The fact that the Poe Dameron comics are continuing beyond the events of TFA and we got the preview image of Poe taking to Rey and Finn adds credence to this fact.
    Here is a breakdown of time Rey has spent with other people until now:
    - Finn spent a little time with her before Takodana, met briefly on SKB and had a brief reunion on the Milennium Falcon while leaving Crait;
    - Leia met her at the end of TFA and then only met her at the end of TLJ;
    - Luke met her at the end of TFA, and spend around a couple of days with her on Ahch-to before she left;
    - Kylo met her on Takodana, briefly interrogates her on SKB, fights her on SKB, talks to her via force bond for a couple of days and then spends a few hours with her on the Supremacy.

    Now if Rey joins the resistance and gets to work with Poe over the span of a few years, I would definitely consider it a concrete base and sufficient time to become great friends or even develop a romance.

    I agree. We need to wait and see what route they finally take in episode 9. It is interesting that the books are silent when it comes to their meeting....maybe they are leaving it open so JJ Abrams can interpret their relationship in whichever way he prefers....or maybe the upcoming comics will shed more light on things.

    Its equally easy to lose sight of the possibility that he could have a similar path and a romance as well...and that the comparisons might be made with that very intent.

    I would say it is too early to know what path they will finally take but since each director is doing their own thing, anything is possible.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
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  8. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2018
    The phrase i know has only been used in the context 3 times. That's why it was such a big deal that even media picked up on it.
     
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  9. Ben-Solo

    Ben-Solo Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 19, 2017
    I know
     
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  10. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    I'm not a theology expert, but it's my understanding that the canon was made by taking into account internal consistency of teachings, age of manuscripts (even today when studying old records, reliability is rated by how close the earliest surviving copies were made to the original events, and the New Testament passes those tests even better than secular works regarded as being reliable, at least in terms of what was written being what the author intended to write), the authors in question, and plenty of prayer for divine intervention in making the right choices. There are some questions, like what to do about the Apocrypha (Catholic Christians count it, while Protestant Christians seem them as of historical value only -- and I will admit that "Bel and Dragon" does not encourage me in believing the former). I will admit that I feel that I'm a bit out of my depth (I'm interested in apologetics, but applying it is not my forte), so I'm not sure how much farther I can carry on an intelligent conversation with this.

    I guess that's the opposite of how I would take it. IMHO, having a change of authors means that the meaning of the previous installment can be retconned (for example, while George Lucas did direct both, ESB's Darth Vader reveal retroactively changes the meaning of scenes regarding Luke's father in ANH from what was originally intended).

    While I do agree that the tie-ins are canon, I wonder how many of the connections were the movie taking cues from them and how many were the tie-ins retroactively building off of the movies. Also, will the future movies use the tie-ins or are they going to have to just stay out of the way and predict in advance what to not cover in order to remain canonical?

    Honestly, I feel that's a huge stretch, esp. since there's no connecting Rey to that scene.

    Maybe?

    The one thing I would say about Han and Leia is that ANH does set up that Han and Luke are jockeying for her attention and that Han is interested in her. Excusing the meta knowledge of how Star Wars uses "I know," there's noting to link Poe and Rey like that. While a time skip could justify putting them together in Episode 9, I don't feel that the either TFA or TLJ have laid the groundwork for it.

    All I can say is that those are still longer than Rey has known Poe.

    I agree in practice (even if I'm not a fan of the idea), but would still wish that it had been set up in the movie proper instead of being all offscreen.

    Its equally easy to lose sight of the possibility that he could have a similar path and a romance as well...and that the comparisons might be made with that very intent.

    I would say it is too early to know what path they will finally take but since each director is doing their own thing, anything is possible.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed.
     
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  11. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 12, 2018
    I see what did there, very nice. Too bad we can't post any gifs on here yet cause there's quite a few treats.
     
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  12. Darkspellmaster

    Darkspellmaster Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2015
    Weird because the book isn't out yet, save for the ARCs. Apparently there's a lot of internalization with Poe's pov.
     
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  13. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 12, 2018
    Rian said that he only put the Poe/Rey scene in TLJ for fun in the BTS. That is a load of horse manure. He's completely lying. Why? Cause he's the one that requested it be removed from TFA as we all know in the novel they meet, and it's a pretty heavy meet-cute complete with I know and everything.

    LBR Rian, the reason you put that scene in there is cause you had too. Because JJ is coming back in episode 9 and you would have been murdered if you cut the scene that you requested to be cut in TFA.

    You are not fooling anybody here. That's why he didn't catch the "I know" or anything cause he never wrote the scene, JJ did. That's why Oscar knows what it means cause JJ the director for TFA told him how to work that scene.

    That is JJ's creation, not Rian's. Which is why he said stupid things like this. Instead of the truth which is if he cut that scene again he would have been eaten alive by JJ.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  14. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    [​IMG]

    ... he said he wrote this line without a second thought, the same way he used this line in Luke\Leia dialogue earlier. This Rey-Poe "pretty heavy" meet-cute "scene" lasts 4 seconds :)
     
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  15. cappoe

    cappoe Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 12, 2018
    He didn't write it, JJ did. He literally copy and pasted the meeting JJ did sans awkward/blushing hug. So of course he wouldn't get anything from it, cause he never wrote it. And of course Oscar as well, as he even said this Poe and Rey's version of "I know". And when I say meet-cute heavy I'm referring to the one that was supposed to be in TFA before Rian requested it was cut and moved to TLJ.

    Bottom line is he did not write the Poe/Rey meeting all he did was copy what JJ put and put it at the end of TLJ once he was done with his self insert Kylo Ren movie.

    Thank God he's not doing episode 9.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  16. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 15, 2018
    You keep saying this, do you have a source?

    JJ wanted to to kill Poe in TFA so "JJ is coming back in episode 9 and Rian would have been murdered if he cut the scene that he requested to be cut in TFA" is quite an interesting theory.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  17. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 20, 2001
    I think there is a lot of conjecture going into this 4 second greeting. I know isn't always a declaration of love. It would've been kind of weird inf Rey and Poe made it all the way to the third film without meeting. The brief interact just sets the stage for them actually knowing each other in IX when there is likely a time jump.
     
  18. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 11, 2016
    About their meeting being cut from TFA, I believe @cappoe might have been referring to this tweet:

    [​IMG]


    Also, while JJ did consider a storyline where Poe died, if you listen to Oscar Isaac's interviews about TFA, he mentions that Poe's character arc was not finalised when he was approached for the role.

    Secondly, in the Art of TFA, there is concept art of John Doe i.e. Poe on Jakku after surviving the crash and even calling him "Rey's partner" (which would not be the case if he was killed after crashing the TIE). The book also states that in other discussed story lines, Poe was supposed to be a bounty hunter or Luke's padawan that survived the jedi massacre.

    So while one story line involved Poe getting killed, they obviously didn't take that path and it has zero relevance two movies down.

    I've read parts of both the expanded novel and junior novel....I like them a lot more than the movie but I have some way to go to finish....but so far, I am happy that Poe has been shown in a largely positive light.

    On a separate note, Rey and Poe's meeting might be brief but Poe's line has too strong an association with one of film's biggest romances to just dismiss and Rey had a proper smile for the first time in the whole film when she met Poe.....so totally understandable if some see it has the prelude to a romance.....a declaration of love in TLJ itself? I personally don't see it.
    But in the future....definitely possible. I'm curious to see what the comics will reveal regarding them narrating all their adventures during TFA and TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  19. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 15, 2018
    Yeah, Pablo said it was cut. He didn't say Rian requested it.

    JJ cut two sympathetic Kylo's scenes (compassion and Falcon) and cool Rey and Finn scene. Did Evil Lord Johnson make him do this too?
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  20. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 11, 2016
    I never said Rian requested scenes to be cut etc. I was just pointing out the tweet which mentioned that the scene where Poe and Rey met in TFA was cut.
    Btw, I like the name Evil Lord Johnson.....has a nice ring to it. [face_tee_hee]
    _________

    In other news, someone on tumblr pointed out an interesting discussion between Finn and Poe about Rey in the TLJ novel....

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  21. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    I hope they will be great friends. As a latina, I'm glad JJ decided to not kill Poe and make him part of the heroes team.

    Poe will teach this to Rey and Finn (maybe Finn already knows)
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  22. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    The Falcon scene wasn't really sympathetic to Kylo at all (it just seemed to let you wonder what was going through his head walking into his past) and the feeling compassion for Rey didn't fit with how the rest of the movie went.
     
  23. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 15, 2018
    I don't think this is a thread to argue about it, but that scenes was 100% sympathetic for villain. And compassion fit 100% not only TFA but TLJ too: KR never wanted to kill Rey in TFA and never wanted revenge before Crait.
     
  24. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    I'd want to see the deleted scene again to double check on what exactly the Falcon scene was doing. As far as compassion fitting what we see in the movies, let's just say that if Kylo's overall behavior to Rey is compassionate, then that definition is not in the Webster's on my shelf. But fair enough if this isn't the place to be discussing this stuff.
     
  25. panki

    panki Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Back on the topic of Rey and Poe, there are some cute images of Daisy Ridley and Oscar Isaac on set....we need more scenes of them interacting in episode IX. :)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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