Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Not at all.

It's just that you don't like that it interferes with the way you see the story not the way he, the writer, does.

 

Nothing to do with the story. These things are script errors. The only people who'd disagree are PT fans who think it's disloyal to ever admit a mistake. No matter how small. Run these things by any non-SW fan writer & they'd take 30 seconds to say they're mistakes. Ironically I'm sure Lucas himself isn't parochial like his fans are. If it was pointed out to him (maybe it has been already) I'm sure he'd say they're simple mistakes. No big deal.

Do you think Lucas deliberately implied that Obi-Wan & Taun We had a good old chat about the specific timing of the order on their stroll to meet Lama Su? It's a scene I'm sure has never crossed GL's mind once, yet you've just invented it here in this discussion. What Lucas would think, what anyone watching the movie would think is that Lama Su provided all of the more specific info. In their meeting & during their tour of the facility. That's the far stronger implication in the movie.

No he doesn't. As he told Yoda & Mace, the time of the order fits into the period of "almost 10 years ago". He tells Lama Su the exact same period for Dyas' death.

Huh? Your story here is a mess. Not that it's your fault, you're trying valiantly to sort out GL's dodgy writing. Obi-Wan had no pressure whatsoever to say anything specific about Dyas' death. Lama Su wasn't complaining. He wasn't annoyed. He was calm & simply telling him valuable information. His only question was "Sifo-Dyas is still a leading member of the Jedi Council is he not?". Obi-Wan just had to say "No he's not". That would've been a completely true statement & then they would've continued their conversation. Your version has Obi-Wan choosing to lie about Dyas' time of death. Which I doubt Lucas ever intended to be the case. If he's going to lie, he has no motive to choose the exact time period of the order for the death. That would be a weird choice. If he did want to reveal Dyas' death, saying that he died "many years ago" would've been far more sensible. That explains the lack of contact but doesn't raise suspicion & questions from the Kaminoans about the order & the death coinciding. & he wouldn't be lying. Obi-Wan perhaps would lie when he needs to. In this case he didn't need to.

 

Darth Downunder wrote

The only people who'd disagree are PT fans who think it's disloyal to ever admit a mistake. ... Not that it's your fault, you're trying valiantly to sort out GL's dodgy writing.

Just for clarification: I do not consider myself a PT "fan" and I'm not trying to sort out Mr. Lucas "dodgy" writing. I nevertheless enjoy the occasion to engage in some mental gymnastics that could provide me with a better understanding how George Lucas as a writer "ticks" (to perhaps help me resolve some remaining OT riddles).

The message to the Jedi council clearly reveals that Kenobi is under the impression Sifo-Dyas died (over) ten years ago. Yet earlier he stated that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago, which coincidentally matches the placement of order almost ten years ago, too, according to the Kaminoans.

It's a fair assumption / conclusion that's what he learned from Taun We (off-screen) on the way to Lama Su's office, and that this is what George Lucas wanted to convey (you don't seem to be willing to give him the benefit of a doubt).

What we see next is an embarrassing, cringeworthy, see-through display of a Jedi who obviously doesn't really have a clue, unless the Kaminoans are blind and deaf and can't read human body language and behavior (amazing they are still in business, then) - yet do have a human (Jango Fett) to study these characteristics to their hearts' content.

And unless I'm mistaken the Jedi had been the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, able to resolve most conflicts through mediation, undoubtedly requiring the most professional training to prepare for the interaction with others. And now this?

Kenobi and the Jedi Council have absolutely no idea what's happening on Kamino. What approach is Kenobi suppposed to choose?

1. To tell the Kaminoans that the Jedi Council has absolutely no idea what's going on OR
2. To pretend that the Jedi Council is okay what is going on on Kamino, but they somehow got out of touch with the Jedi guy who represented the council

Kenobi is mindful of the future that other Jedi will come to Kamino and - just like him - lack a lot of information and will not be able to answer questions while at the same time will ask questions the Kaminoans may assume had already been answered in the past.

So Kenobi deliberately plays the role of the "dumb Jedi" who doesn't really know (in case he screws up something the Jedi coming after him could blame it on his stupidity and the Kaminoans could buy that...), but consciously uses the information when the order had been placed as the date of Sifo-Dyas death, so the Kaminoans will understand that the Jedi representative died shortly after placing the order and couldn't inform the Jedi Council of successful negotiations and placement of the clone army order. Hence the late arrival of a representative of the Jedi Council.

If he did want to reveal Dyas' death, saying that he died "many years ago" would've been far more sensible.

I disagree. This would have implied that Sifo-Dyas returned to the Jedi Council, provided all the information which would then have been entered into the databanks.
This would have made Kenobi look like an imposter ("Your story doesn't hold up, "Master" Kenobi, you obviously do not have the information the other Jedi must have"), and would have put a quick end to his investigations and information acquiring efforts.

By truthfully suggesting that the Jedi Order never heard back of Sifo-Dyas in addition with his "obviously embarrassed" acting (trying to save the Jedi Order face for not having seized measures to ensure they would hear back from Sifo-Dyas) he obviously persuaded the Kaminoans to play along.

 

There are no errors. Obi-Wan is playing along with the Kaminoans. His dialogue must reflect that. He couldn't say that the person who placed the order died before the time the order was placed. That's like saying that Obi-Wan stating that the army being on schedule is good news is sloppy/bad/dodgy/[insert any negative adjective] just because of your own ignorance about the intent.

 

Sounds like you haven't read the conversation. He should've either told the truth or said Dyas died after the order was placed. Or even better said nothing about Dyas' death at all. The one thing he shouldn't do is say he died at the same time the order was placed.
Also how do you account for Obi-Wan knowing exactly when the order was placed when he met with Lama Su, which was as soon as he arrived? Do you subscribe to Lt. Hija's creative Taun We theory?

Next problem. You guys are setting up a scenario where Obi-Wan & the Jedi know for sure that Dyas couldn't have placed the order. So why would they be stupid enough to fall for the trick of bringing the clone army into the fold?? Makes them look like morons.

 

well I don't think he knew the exact date of his death in his head , if he did that would be odd .And he didn't say " he died at the same time the order was placed."

And obviously what he said to the kaminoans was taken by them to be that he died after the order was placed , so I don't know what you're complaining about anymore

 

Darth Downunder wrote

The one thing he shouldn't do is say he died at the same time the order was placed.

"Sifo Dyas was killed almost ten years ago" (too). Suggesting that Sifo-Dyas might have perished returning to the Republic to report that the order had been placed, effectively explains Kenobi's obvious ignorance.

You guys are setting up a scenario where Obi-Wan & the Jedi know for sure that Dyas couldn't have placed the order.

I certainly do not. Remember the first part of the dialogue with Yoda and Mace:

Do not assume
anything, Obi-Wan.

After this lecture he doesn't use the word "assumption" but "impression" instead (how else can he express his confusion?):

I was under the impression
[Sifo-Dyas] was killed before that.

Clearly, Kenobi doesn't know for sure when Sifo-Dyas died, and neither Yoda nor Mace feel it important to tell him.

Kenobi's "Impression" doesn't seem to alert Yoda or Mace who are more concerned about Kenobi apprehending Jango Fett, suggesting that Kenobi misremembers.

On the contrary it is my impression (LOL) that it's perfectly possible that Sifo-Dyas placed the clone army order - while in fact it was Dooku.

 

I agree. I'm not the one proposing that. These other guys are. They're saying Taun We, the person who answers the door & makes the coffee, told Obi-Wan while they were walking to meet Lama Su the exact time of Sifo-Dyas' clone order. I know, crazy isn't it. Why are they saying that? Bcs I pointed out how absurd it is for Obi-Wan to think that Dyas died "almost 10 years ago" & then say to Yoda & Mace, "they placed the clone order almost 10 years ago. I was under the impression Dyas died before that" .
So their cunning plan to dig Lucas out of this hole is to somehow claim that Obi knew about the date of the clone order before he met with Su & that he lied. Even though the lie he chose was the same time-frame as the order. Don't think about it too much. You'll bring on a tumor.

Come on man If he wasn't sure when Dyas died then why the need to lie about his time of death?? The movie implies nothing of the sort. Obi seemed to mean what he said when he told Su that Dyas died almost 10 years ago. Your made-up conversation between he & Taun We & Obi then deliberately lying would've been very important. It should've been conveyed on screen. It wasn't.

 

Darth Downunder

I examined and explained the way I see it in-depth. I agree it's not crystal clear but rather complex and convoluted. But ultimately I believe that George Lucas - knowing how obsessed we can get about clues and hints and discuss some of these endlessly - deliberately threw us a bone with a lot of meat anticipating we'd fine comb the scenes and dialogue in repeated DVD viewings to figure out what he was aiming at.

You disagree and I will respect that. Yet my interest and appreciation for AotC has considerably risen, and for that I'm grateful.

 

I don't know if Taun We said that or not , but it wouldn't strike me as particularly odd if she did . what's so crazy about it ? she has after all admitted him in and accepted that he's officially part of the business that ordered this army .

.

 

The biggest mystery to me is; why, on a planet characterized by frequent rainstorms, do they not have covered landing platforms? Their poor guests have to walk through the pouring rain to get to the door, and then they don't even have dryers in the doorways.
Poor Obi-Wan even had to chat with the council via hologram out in the torrential downpour.

Maybe it's a metaphor.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=All Wet

 

Sorry but that simply won't work because the exact same "mistakes" both "real" and imagined that are pointed out to those same people who find all the "mistakes" in the PT tend to be the one who won't find the same kinds of "mistakes" in the OT. They always have a reason why the one isn't and the other isn't.

This whole hangar scene is a marvelous case in point. Of all of the dozens and dozens of scenes in Star Wars to pour over this scene is not one at the top or middle of my list. It'd be right near the bottom. As it's a next to nothing transitional scene.

And you know what? Thanks to you I see that I was mistaken in that. I have seen the scene many, many times but looked at it as a mere transitional scene like so many others. Maybe it is just that but at the same time rewatching it and paying particular attention to everything around it I realized something new and very relevant about the scene that I don't recall ever thinking before.

First off on the purely mechanical part that catches your interest. For some reason you have a hang-up on this hangar scene and see it somehow as some kind of mistake and script error. How this is I don't know. As I said before Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme are on the troop transport, they see Dooku and go after him, they are fired upon and Padme and a Clonetrooper fall out, Anakin wants to go back but Obi-Wan asks what would Padme do in his situation and he acknowledges she would do her duty and put the personal issues that he is feeling aside. That scene of course is of great note.

Now what exactly your problem is and why you identify it as an error is obviously something you can't shake. If it really is "no big deal" then why go on about it? What is the error though? That Padme knew about the hangar? Why is that a problem at all? As I have pointed out it's not some incredible leap of logic for anyone to come to the conclusion that Dooku is going to a place where he has a ship that he can escape Geonosis since he hasn't done so already. That he is travelling there is also fairly evident especially to Padme who we have seen is a shrewd tactician in TPM. Recall that in AOTC already Padme thinks that Count Dooku is behind the assassination attempt on her. She was right. So again Padme's instincts and assessment's are right on.

Why is this point so hard to accept? You have no trouble with Leia's tactical knowledge in ANH about going to Yavin. Are you hung up on how Leia knew that shooting out one particular grate would lead to escape in that case to a trash compactor? How did she know it didn't lead to a furnace or something else? How did she know about it at all? I have to tell you in decades I has spent no time whatsoever thinking about it until now.

Now for the cool bit. Rewatching the scene something struck me in relation to the previously noted Obi-Wan and Anakin scene. When Padme is in danger Anakin wants to set duty aside and go after her. He's worried about her and he is brought around by Obi-Wan asking about what Padme would do. In the brief transitional scene we see exactly that. The Clonetrooper says they should go back to base but Padme says no they need to get to that hangar meaning to stop Dooku. Is she asking about Anakin? No. Is she worried about him? Obviously she would be but unlike Anakin who was thinking of her first Padme was thinking of her duty first. This next to nothing transitional scene is actually the pay-off point to the earlier one with Obi-Wan and Anakin.

So while I disagree with your point I do have to thank you for making it and it has further enhanced my viewings of AOTC.

Explaining things fully is not the Lucas way. Even with TCW episodes regarding this he doesn't do that.

That is rather wonderful isn't it? What is SO hilarious about it is for those who complain about "needing" to read the AOTC novel to better understand the movie and based on that blast the movie for not saying so in the movie.

Of course when TFA does the exact same thing and you "need" to read the novel to better understand the movie they don't blast it at all. They either entirely let it go and say that novel material isn't really essential and besides it would have slowed the movie down so best not to have that in the movie. I mean that is what the book is for right?

Of course the whole point is that the Star Wars novelizations do enhance the viewings of all of the movies but what is and isn't of great import is dependent on the individual viewer.

Actually TFA has done one "better" than the other movies compared to their books. In TFA's case the recent Bloodline book has made the movie make a lot more sense because what the First Order actually is (which was not in the movie OR the novel) is revealed there.

The funny thing is that it actually takes the whole set-up of the ST even closer to the PT than it already is as seen in the movie.

 

And here I will disagree with you.

Obi-Wan was told not to assume anything and yet almost directly after that he goes on to tell Mace and Yoda about Sifo-Dyas ordering the army AND he adds that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was already dead when this order was placed. In effect, Obi-Wan tells Mace and Yoda that Sifo-Dyas did NOT place the order as he was dead and instead someone posed as Sifo-Dyas.
Mace backs this up by saying "No, WHOEVER placed that order..."
If Mace thought that Sifo-Dyas really DID place the order, he would have used his name.
But he didn't.
So Obi-Wan, who knows when the order was placed and when Sifo-Dyas died, he concludes that Sifo-Dyas was killed BEFORE the he supposedly ordered the army. And he tells Mace and Yoda this.
Since he had just been told not to assume things, he would be very sure about it.
Since he was just told when the order was placed, that date he would be very sure of. If he is unclear about when Sifo-Dyas died, he could ask Mace and Yoda to verify that date.
But he doesn't.
Also Mace and Yoda does NOT know when the order was placed but Obi-Wan does. If they want to verify that this was indeed after Sifo-Dyas death they could have aksed Obi-Wan for more details. But they don't. Instead they accept what Obi-Wan says, that Sifo-Dyas didn't do it and this army was ordered by person/persons unknown.

So the film does establish that Sifo-Dyas did NOT order the army and the Jedi KNOW it.
The film have Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was dead when the order was placed and then nothing further is said about it.
If Lucas wanted to convey the idea that the Jedi really did believe that Sifo-Dyas was behind it then he failed to establish that.
What he did establish is that the Jedi know that the order was placed under a false name and he lets the audience know that it was most likely Dooku.
The Jedi don't know that but they know that whoever placed the order did so under a false name and they know enough to suspect Dooku.

This makes them into morons for trusting the clone army so completely and never doing any investigations.

I think that part of the problem might be that this was changed late in the game.
The shooting script had Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda all knew it.
This is what was filmed.
But during reshoots, Lucas changed the plot a bit and reshot Ewan talking about a Sifo-Dyas but only those parts. In these scenes you can see that Ewan has a fake beard.
So only part of the scenes were redone.

Later

So the Sifo-Dyas plot has to be worked into scenes where you had Sido-Dyas instead.
Maybe Lucas should have redone all of those scenes to better establish what he wanted to get across.
If he wanted to make it seem like the Jedi have doubts but are convinced enough that Sifo-Dyas, a real Jedi, really did this. Then that should have been made MUCH clearer.
Why even have Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order. Just have Sifo-Dyas death at almost ten years ago and leave it at that. Simply have him ask if the council agreed to this and Mace says no but adds that it is possible that Sifo-Dyas did this.
Why add confusion if you want to establish certainty?

If instead he wanted to convey that Sifo-Dyas was just a convenient alias for whoever placed the order and the Jedi know it. Then the film mostly works as is.
Of course this leads to the obvious question, who do the Jedi think is really behind this?
They know it isn't Sifo-Dyas and could suspect Dooku.
And using this army, no questions asked, is idiotic.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

@SamuelVimes

I'd have to disagree with you there , I don't think the film does establish that .

now this is just going by the film - Kenobi is under the impression that he died about 10 years ago , maybe more , but no-one confirms it . And it could be that they're now wondering if he really did die ( we don't know if it was a case of no body being available for identification etc. ) or maybe he was listed 'missing presumed dead' .

but whatever the case - the film doesn't establish that the jedi know it wasn't Dyas who ordered the clones .

.

 

Dwelling to such extremes as Darth Downunder has done, on little more than a single throwaway line, has to be about the most absurdly pedantic, micro-focused obsession with three seconds of Star Wars -- and three seconds of the weird and wacky AOTC, at that -- that I have ever seen.

Impressive, most impressive.

As for the other off-topic nonsense:

I've realized it's kinda cool that -- depending on your POV -- there's a "mystery" guy behind all three prequel plotlines:

TPM = Darth Sidious
AOTC = Sifo-Dyas
ROTS = Darth Plagueis

What's that all about?

More SW prequel strangeness.

 

I don't agree.
We, the audience know next to nothing about Sifo-Dyas.
We have never seen him and almost everything we do know are told to us by Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan says that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered.
Do we, the audience, have any reason to doubt this?
No!
To do so would then be ignoring what a character says for no reason.

The film have Obi-Wan, who knows more than the audience, that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed. Then we have Mace say "WHOEVER" about the person that placed the order.
And that is the LAST we ever hear about the person that ordered the clone army.
Then we learn that Dooku is this Tyrannus, who is hired Jango to be the template for the clone army.
This is the nail in the coffin. Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas and ordered the army.
And are not given any reason to think that the Jedi think that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army.
We learn pretty much the opposite.

If Lucas wanted to convey that the Jedi DO think that Sifo-Dyas did order the army then he massively failed to establish that.
If he instead wanted to establish that Sifo-Dyas was just a name used by the person that really ordered the army then the film works. The drawback is that the Jedi know this as well.
So either Lucas didn't do his job properly or the jedi are dumb.

If Lucas wanted to fool the Jedi then just tweak some of the dialogue.
Have Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was killed eight years ago. Have Jango say that he never met Sifo-Dyas but he knows who he is. He was hired by a guy named Tyrannus.
When Obi-Wan reports to Mace and Yoda he asks if Sifo-Dyas had the council's ok to do this, which they deny but admit that it is possible that Sifo-Dyas did this. Then at the end we learn that Dooku is this Tyrannus and we figure it out.
This makes it clear to us while making it plausible that the Jedi would think that Sifo-Dyas did order the army and explains why they trust it.

Simple.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Is it possible the Jedi didn't care that much? Not that they were totally ambivalent about who ordered the clone army or to what end, but as Obi-Wan reported, the Kaminoans indicated it was ordered for the Jedi (and of course the Kaminoans were led to believe it was ordered by a Jedi as well), and therefore it was most feasible for them to accept the army as a convenient tailor-made "solution" of sorts to the single most pressing issue in the Republic and for the Jedi at that time: the Separatist Crisis. I assume the mystery that surrounded pseudo-Sifo-Dyas did in fact trouble the Jedi, but the Force was clouded by the Dark Side and the Jedi were just too pragmatic to look a gift horse in the mouth. And after all, we know from the film that Yoda and Windu were very apprehensive about the whole situation.

 

TCW confirms that, after the events of AOTC, the Jedi did indeed choose to believe that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army. It furthermore establishes that it was indeed a case of Sifo-Dyas being presumed dead after going missing in action, with no actual body ever being recovered. Of course, this is all implied by AOTC itself, but TCW makes it explicit.

This is all necessary to establish why the Jedi were ever willing to touch the clone army with a ten-foot pole. They had to assume it was Sifo-Dyas's doing. They had to, because they needed that army, and they couldn't in good conscience use it if they were to allow themselves to have any doubts.

 

I'm glad to notice I'm not the only one who has fallen for that obsolete AotC script available at IMDB, which is also the one having Fett claim he was hired by a "Darth Tyranus". It's an early version and obviously Lucas realized in time that it would make the Jedi look like morons.
I therefore rely entirely on the accurate dialogue transcript of the actual final film, which canonically established the previous existence of a Jedi master Sifo-Dyas - and thus overwrote the earlier version you quoted:

They say Master Sifo-Dyas
placed an order for a clone army...
at the request of the senate
almost ten years ago.
I was under the impression
he was killed before that.
Did the council ever authorize
the creation of a clone army?

No. Whoever placed that order
did not have the authorization
of theJedi Council.

What should be wrong about Mace's "whoever"? All they can objectively verify is that somebody placed that order. Whether it really was Sifo-Dyas or instead somebody impersonating him is objectively unknown to the Jedi, but apparently the Sifo-Dyas theory ultimately turns out to be possible.

On the contrary, we have all the reeasons to doubt Kenobi's statement. Now he states that he "was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was killed [over ten years ago]" while he told the Kaminoans earlier as if it were a fact that Sifo-Dyas was killed "almost ten years ago".
So which of the two Kenobi statements could the audience possibly trust if these contradict each other?

That's the scriptwriting genius of George Lucas Darth Downunder wouldn't admit to. First he deprives us of the context of Kenobi's earlier "almost ten years ago" statement (i.e. he just played along to information already provided by the Kaminoans off-screen) to mislead the audience that understands something doesn't add up here, but provides it later in Kenobi's report ("They say...") for anyone who paid close attention.
Ultimately the only thing that remains is Kenobi's "impression" which itself clarifies he doesn't know for sure. And given the lack of feedback from Yoda or Mace, the Sifo-Dyas story could be correct.

 

Considering they don't react when told that he is dead, I think their emotions are very limited. I didn't say that it was all the time. Just long enough to make sure that everything was in place for the next decade. Remember, they're waiting for a Jedi to come there. That's why they aren't too bothered about not hearing from him.

Boba wouldn't leave without Jango. Once Obi-wan would incapacitate Jango, he'd get aboard Slave I and incapacitate him as well. Then take both back to Coruscant, while R-4 pilots the Jedi Fighter back. Remember, Astromechs can fly as we see the later R-4 do with Obi-wan's Interceptor and Artoo volunteers to do so for Luke.

Because the Jedi don't have larger ships of their own, as they usually hitch rides via other means. The Jedi Fighter was recently built for them. They didn't have two man ships. He isn't expecting Jango to be on Kamino. He's there to ask for their assistance in trying to identify Jango and see if they can point him in the right direction. If he were back in the Republic, he might call for assistance once he's captured. Or he'd still use Slave I.

Or Padme's smart enough to know that Dooku's heading for a ship and thus would be in a hangar. He's not out for a Sunday drive in the middle of a war.

 

In the case of Obi's contradictory statements about the timing of Dyas' death it's simply another script error that Lucas overlooked. No way did he effectively convey that Obi-Wan was trying to deceive the Kaminoans. The lengths you guys need to go to to insert made up scenes, ones that are highly unrealistic show that Lucas could have & should have done alot better.

But not in a clear & decisive way. We see Obi-Wan make contradictory statements & also that he only has an "impression" that Dyas died before "almost 10 yrs ago". Which Yoda & Mace don't bother confirming. The fact that they say "whoever" ordered the army is irrelevant too. You can't expect them to sum up the whole situation during a 1 min conversation & know exactly who placed the order.

Agreed, but he left things vague enough to allow wiggle room which then later allowed the establishment of Dyas as the one who placed the initial order.

Obi-Wan's stated mission was to "track down that Bounty Hunter". Anyone with an ounce of intelligence would take a vessel with enough room to bring him back if it became necessary. Which it would have had he not escaped. Obi-Wan had seen (witnessed also by Anakin) Jango murder someone with a poison dart. He also had the evidence of the dart itself. What was Obi going to do if he had tracked down Jango (which was his mission)? Give him a good talking to? Use harsh language? No he'd need to bring him back to face justice for his crimes.
In fact if you listen to the AotC blu-ray commentary one of the crew laugh & admit this is a blunder but fortunately Jango got away & we didn't need to see Obi "strapping Jango to the outside of his fighter". An example where the crew can have a laugh & admit these kinds of things while overly-serious fans can't.

Ha, so he wouldn't be heading for one of the dozens of huge round TF ships that were beginning to power up & leave from the surface? That would've been my guess rather than "that hangar"

So size does matter??

Thing is I don't focus on it at all. I sometimes mention it if it's in context within a conversation. Then various PT fans like you previously, or QRB right now try in vain to mount a long & detailed defence. Fact is though, Padme/hangar is the Kobayashi Maru plothole of the Saga. Trying to explain it is a no-win scenario. Like with Kirk in Star Trek, the only way around the problem is to cheat. That is, to say that Padme used the Force. Which introduces a new & even worse problem. Mind you I do find some fun & a certain admiration for people who spend time trying to solve it. Especially now since I don't have to waste time on it. Like certain other topics that get repeatedly brought up, I have all of the info on this one saved. Just leaves me with a quick & simple copy & paste job Here we go again...

And there could be many such places. Facts of the situation:

- Unexpectedly the Gunship crew see Dooku on a speeder & decide to follow him. The whole point of following him is to stay with him to wherever he's going & then confront him.
- At this point at the moment they spot him does anyone in their right mind think they know the exact ship, hangar or base on the planet that he's headed to? Of course no one does. Especially not Padme standing at the back of the ship holding a rope.
- A minute after they begin following Dooku the ship is attacked from behind & is hit.
- Padme (along with one clonetrooper) is thrown from the ship & is knocked unconscious as she hits the ground.
- From her point of view, the next moment is her regaining consciousness & speaking with the trooper. This is a continuous exchange with no cuts. There was no opportunity for her to get any further information.
- Just prior to that is a scene where the Gunship she was on was destroyed by the pursuing droid fighters, but Obi-Wan & Anakin jump off first & enter a hangar with a small entrance cut out of a cliff-face. Dooku is there.
- Inexplicably Padme upon waking says to the trooper "we've got to get to that hangar!"

This is despite the fact that:

- She has no way of knowing about that particular hangar. A hangar that seems quite discrete & hidden away.
- She knew the Gunship was attacked, which is why she was thrown & knocked out.
- She did not know the outcome of that attack & the continuing attacks from the pursuing ships.
- Even if she made the assumption that Dooku & the clone ship did make it to "a destination" there were dozens if not hundreds of possible destinations. From TF ships that were departing, to other CIS ships, to who knows where else.
- Since she was unconscious she's unlikely to even be sure how much time had passed while she was out. Dooku could've been in deep space by then, & her friends could've crashed, been forced to land due to damage or been killed.

This is just a script error on Lucas' part. You don't give characters knowledge that they have no way of possessing within the story. With this hangar line he made Padme an audience member who had watched the previous scene with us. The problem is illustrated perfectly in this clip. It shows the whole sequence only from Padme's pov. If Lucas had picked up this mistake he would've had the clonetrooper first say to her something like "The Gunship was destroyed, but we traced it to what appears to be a hangar not far from here". Then Padme could say her line & there'd be no problem.

 

You're extremely persistent, DD, I'll say that much.

You'd make an excellent Jedi.

 

I think you misunderstood me, I quoted part of that script to show what was in the shooting script.
IE the script that was filmed. Some parts of it was later changed during pick ups.
So the Kamino scenes were initially filmed with Sido-Dyas being the person behind the order and then parts of SOME scenes were reshot with Obi-Wan mentioning Sifo-Dyas.
You can see this when Ewan has a fake beard.

So I was not fooled, I was pointing out that the finished film has a mix of scenes filmed at different times and with different names for the person who is said to have ordered the army.
Hence why this plot point might be seen as confusing.

But as I said, after Mace's comment, the question about who ordered the clone army is NEVER brought up in the film. Or in RotS.
Also, don't forget that Jango doesn't know Sifo-Dyas, he has never even heard of him.
Obi-Wan knows this and this is even more evidence that Sifo-Dyas didn't place the order.

From just watching the film, how can Sifo-Dyas as the one who ordered the army be seen as possible by either the Jedi or the audience?
The audience are told that Sifo-Dyas was apparently dead when the army was ordered, Mace refers to the person that did so as "Whoever", indicating an unknown person. Jango was not hired by Sifo-Dyas and never heard about him. The Jedi archives have been tampered with and someone has been trying to hide the clone army from the Jedi. And the person that placed the order said he acted under orders from the senate, which is a lie. Lastly we see that Jango works for Dooku and he is the person who hired Jango to be the army template.

To the audience, the conclusion is rather obvious, Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas, he hired Jango and he deleted the Kamino file.

The Jedi know everything I mentioned above except that Dooku = Tyrannus. But they know enough to conclude that Sifo.-Dyas didn't place the order and they do conclude that as evidenced by Obi-Wan saying that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed and Mace saying "Whoever."
At NO point do they even consider the possibility that Sifo-Dyas might be behind this.

As I mentioned to DD, if Sifo-Dyas died nine years and eight months ago and the clone army was ordered nine years and two months ago, both dates fit with "almost ten years ago" but Sifo-Dyas death is still before the placing of the order.

Also, if you were to ask people "what date did John Wayne die?" How many could give the exact answer with a only a few seconds to mull?
Not many I think.
The first time, Obi-Wan hears about a Jedi master that died around ten years ago so it is little wonder that his recollection of the exact date of his death is unclear. Nothing indicates that he knew Sifo-Dyas personally so Sifo-Dyas death would not mean much to Obi-Wan.
The second time, Obi-Wan has had time to think and he has also been told the date when the order was placed and he concludes that Sifo-Dyas was dead when the order was placed.

So the second statement would indeed be more accurate and if Obi-Wan is still unsure about when Sifo-Dyas died, it would be very simple to ask Mace and Yoda about that. Since he doesn't and Mace and Yoda doesn't ask for confirmation, either they accept that Sifo-Dyas was already dead or they are idiots.

Why Obi-Wan uses "I was under the impression" is because he has just been told an impossible thing, a dead Jedi Master ordered a clone army after his death. Something does not add up here.
And he mentions this to Mace and Yoda in his report and ask them if the council knew anything about this, which they don't.

[/QUOTE]

If Lucas wanted to convey to the audience that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army and the Jedi are aware of it. Then his writing works.
If he wanted to convey to the audience that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army but the Jedi thinks he did, then he failed.
Because the film doesn't convey that. Obi-Wan, the one person that knows when Sifo-Dyas died and when the army was ordered, places Sifo-Dyas death BEFORE the order. He never asks Mace and Yoda for the exact date of Sifo-Dyas death and they don't demand more details.
So all three conclude that Sifo-Dyas isn't the one who ordered the army. So they want Obi-Wan to capture Jango and find out who he works for. While they don't quite succeed, they do find out that Jango works for Dooku.
As I've said, at no point do the Jedi even consider the possibility that Sifo-Dyas really did this. And that is because this plot point is dropped after Kamino and never comes back.

The lack of feedback from Mace and Yoda shows the opposite of what you think, since they don't probe Obi-Wan for details, like asking for the date the army was ordered and thus they can verify that Obi-Wan is correct by comparing with the date for Sifo-Dyas death. Instead they accept his conclusion, that Sifo-Dyas didn't do this, someone else did. But they never find out who this person is and they never talk about it later.

@Darth Downunder

See above for why Obi-Wan second statement about Sifo-Dyas death would be more accurate than his first.
How hard would it be for Obi-Wan to ask Mace and Yoda "I think Sifo-Dyad died nine years and eight months ago, is that correct?" Not hard at all.
If he is unsure then not asking makes him into an idiot.
If Mace and Yoda are not convinced, then them not asking Obi-Wan for details makes them into idiots.
They can't conclude who placed the order, which is why they want Obi-Wan to capture Jango and find out who he works for. Which could tell them who ordered the army and who wants Padme dead.
The Jedi do find out that Jango works for Dooku, who coincidentally is a former Jedi turned to the dark side. So he could have deleted the file and posed as Sifo-Dyas.

What the scene can and did convey is that the Jedi don't believe that Sifo-Dyas placed the order, someone else did.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I think Lucas said in interviews. He wanted to inject elements of mystery noir in the Attack of The Clones to give a sense of mystery and ambiguity. That is probably why plot elements are confusing than they need to be.

 

Mystery ≠ confusion. A good mystery, in the end should provide the opposite of confusion.