Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

There can be no doubt that Palpatine fakes his condition and embelishes his weakness. And you're right, we was smart. He made a gamble that paid off. The sovereignty over the story that GL held aside, Mace had the opportunity to destroy Sidious. But was stopped because of Anakin's turn to the dark side. If Anakin decided not to turn to the dark side and instead choose to help Mace apprehend Sidious and obtain his information another way, the story would have progressed differently and Sidious would have been defeated by the Senate. This is my point.
Anakin wasn't a neutral party or an accessory. Whether Palpatine knew it or not, he hitched his wagon heavily upon Anakin. It paid off as we all know, but if his gamble backfired, his whole scheme would have failed.

 

Well there is really no need to go through your post on a point by point basis because it is clear that you believe that Mace actually beat Palpatine, where as I believe Palpatine was faking the entire time, and irregardless of Anakin's final decision, Palpatine was never in a real position of being a "kabob". So no matter what points I bring up, your reply will always be a "yeah but" response.

What I was actually going to do to was to close my post here with quotes from Lucas, but, darth-sinister beat me to it... However, he missed one that is also very relevant here:

From the AOTC DVD Commentary...

The Dark Side is stronger, so much stronger that Sidious is able to beat Yoda. So are really supposed to believe that Mace beat Sidious, but, Yoda couldn't?

Like I said, I would do a point by point rebuttal to what you said, because I think you are missing a huge point in ROTS about Sidious's plan, and how he moves it along at different stages, but, as I said, I know your response would always go back to that Mace beat Sidious, so I won't waste my time...

Now to repeat what darth-sinister says because it's just such good stuff!!!

 

You are correct sir. That is the way I see it. If you don't see it that way, tough cookies.

Yeah but..
Assuming Anakin would have just sat there sippin Correalian Ale watching the two duke it out, you may be right. Although we never got to see the fight play out to the end, I do believe Mace would have won. The Vaapad/Juyo form of lightsaber combat is all about channeling the opponents negative emotions back at them. It draws especially close to the dark side. In short, Mace had the chops to defeat him. But was interrupted.

Do as you will.

I don't read anything that says "Palpatine was faking the entire time before Anakin arrives, and then puts on even more fake exaggerations when he pretends to be weak." Mace was clearly overpowering Palpatine. If you choose not to see that, like i said - tough cookies.

The dark side is stronger? Obi-wan (padawan) vs. Maul // Rey vs. Kylo Ren // Yoda vs. Dooku // Obi-Wan vs. Anakin, etc. must all be mistakes they never caught in the script

 

Exactly. I too missed the bit of the prophecy in the movies that the Chosen One will be praised as a hero for all time.

Luke COULD NOT defeat Sidious. He could however defeat and kill Vader (there is nothing about the Chosen One not being able to be killed) which is what would have happened if he had "followed the code" set down by Obi-Wan and Yoda. They once again were wrong about all sorts of things. They put there own perspective on what the Chosen One was. Luke was like Anakin in that he was looking for another way to save the one he loved.

In another way though he did follow the actual Jedi path and didn't kill Vader like Obi-Wan didn't kill Vader on Mustafar. On top of that like his mother he still believed beyond all logic and sanity there was still good in him that no one else thought was possible (including Vader).

Not without bring back the Sith in the first place and having the Force out of balance to the Dark Side.

Besides that Vader turns back into Anakin IS the most powerful character moment in the saga where in his evil he rediscovers a part of himself to save his son. Nothing has changed in that regards at all. The Chosen One doesn`t change that decision at all.

I don`t know why some insist that it does.

 

But Sidious only hitched his wagon to Anakin AFTER he was already confident that he had Anakin in his grasp. There was some risk, yes, but it was a calculated risk. If Palpatine's test of Anakin against Dooku had gone differently, Palpatine still had the option to carry out his original plans alone, including order 66. He just wouldn't have been in quite as strong a position as he was with Vader at his side.

 

Well, like I said, the retcon could simply be that the Jedi in the prequels misread the prophecy; they thought that the prophecy mentioned destroying the Sith, but it actually said that the Chosen One would destroy the forces of the dark side (which the Jedi misinterpreted as referring to the Sith). And so, when Anakin killed the Emperor, he destroyed the Sith but didn't rid the world of the dark side forces since there were other dark side users still around, like Snoke. And so, in this retcon, the Force would still be out of balance at the end of ROTJ.

I'm not insisting that it does. I was merely saying that if there is a retcon whereby Rey is the Chosen One (which is probably unlikely), then the moment where Vader saves Luke would no longer be the fulfillment of the prophecy; it would "just" be a powerful character moment instead of also being a prophecy fulfillment.

 

Additionally the films speak of "the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force". From Obi-Wan's line about Anakin destroying the Sith, it can be inferred that the Jedi interpreted the prophesy as meaning the one who will destroy the Sith, an interpretation since confirmed by GL. However, Yoda's remark about the prophesy being misread is a perfect set up for a retcon, where the balance of the Force is a term that goes beyond two battling factions: the Jedi and the Sith, especially considering, that while the Sith destroyed themselves, another older evil was already stirring, bent on not repeating past mistakes.

 

I think that very easily is already there in the first place. Again all these prophecies and readings are something that is not for all time.

The whole point is the misreading of the Prophecy talked about is not that the Chosen One won't destroy the Sith and bring Balance to the Force.

That it is Anakin is what they were talking about was possibly misread.

Of course they were wrong because they couldn't see around bringing their own biases.

 

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

So if Anakin had failed, like he did on Naboo when a similar kidnapping attempt occurred, then they'd wait a while longer.

The misread bit is about whether or not they believed it was Anakin or not, that is true. That's why they focus on Anakin's offspring and it is only when Luke is on his last legs and Anakin finally does the right thing, that it becomes apparent that it is Anakin and that they were both right and wrong. They were right that he was the Chosen One and that they were wrong to believe that he could ever come back from the dark side.

 

I know, but the prophesy is logically never mentioned in the films after ROTS. So, while Lucas has since explained it's meaning, this is not apparent from the films. Hence, it is a good setup for a retcon.

 

The plan was most likely in existence well before Palpatine knew anything about Anakin, as was the case in the Darth Plagueis book. Order 66 is designed such that it does not depend on Anakin's existence.

 

No, the prophecy isn't mentioned after ROTS.

But it is executed.

It's meaning is not quite relevant, but it is apparent that in ROTJ the master and the apprentice of the Sith die. Hence it is fulfilled and there's no need for retcon.

How about another one. In a crazy turn of events we learn that Luke is not a Skywalker after all. Anakin's real son shows up in ST movie nr. 2, and Luke that we know is some weird loser from the desert whose father was a spice freighter navigator. And the real Luke Skywalker is that another hope Yoda spoke of in TESB.

I mean, it is possible. It's within frame of the misread prophecy.

 

Except that the audience, if they're smart enough, realizes that the prophecy is true when Anakin destroys the Sith in ROTJ. Remember, Obi-wan says that he was to destroy the Sith, not join them. Well, he destroyed them in ROTJ. Snoke is not a Sith, nor is Kylo Ren.

 

I've seen TFA 11 times and I don't think any of us really know who Snoke is, so I don't know how you could make a definitive statement about him?

 

The argument isn't that the prophecy doesn't make sense as it is. Because it does.

The argument is instead that there is just enough wiggle room that a retcon could be created. Just like in ANH when Obi-Wan mentions how Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father. That made perfect sense and there was no need for a retcon. But we got a retcon in TESB and it was awesome; it was a twist that subverted our expectations. Similarly, we may believe that the prophecy was fulfilled in ROTJ. But a retcon whereby the Jedi misinterpreted the prophecy could be created; they could say that the prophecy only mentioned the Chosen One destroying the dark side forces, which the Jedi misinterpreted as only referring to the Sith. And so, in the world of this retcon, the balance to the Force wouldn't be restored at the end of ROTJ since only the Sith were destroyed, not all the dark side forces. And that would allow for the twist of someone else actually being the Chosen One.

But that's all moot anyway. I don't see it as very likely that they would revisit the Chosen One plot point. Fun to think about, but still unlikely.

 

I agree, they probably won't want to bring back up any PT plot points. The ST is supposed to "fix" SW.

That statement Mike brought up about Lucas saying the dark side is stronger is a odd statement considering Yoda in TESB says it isn't stronger, just more seductive. Not the first time Lucas has contradicted himself. I view it that when the force is out of balance, then the darkside is stronger making the lightside weaker, but when there is balance the darkside clearly can't be stronger.

 

How would an audience that have ONLY seen the films reach this conclusion?
As far as the PT/OT goes, there are only two kinds of Force users, Jedi and Sith.
No other kind of Force users are ever mentioned or established.
No Dark Jedi, no Whills, nothing.

If one starts with the PT, we have Maul, who is a Sith and he has a red lightsabre.
Dooku has one too even if he isn't directly called a Sith in AotC, he is called one in RotS.
Sidous also has a red lightsabre. We see Anakin become Dart Vader in the PT and in the OT, he, like the other Sith, have a red lightsabre.

So to the audience, "Red lightsabre" = "Sith".
So when the audience sees TFA and Kylo Ren, what color lightsabre does he have? Red!
So if the audience would classify Kylo as anything, the most likely name would be "Sith".

Yes Kylo and Snoke don't refer to themselves as Sith but neither does Vader and the Emperor in the OT.

So it very likely that many in the audience would think that the Sith are back. Then Anakin may have killed one Sith in RotJ but he didn't end them forever.

TFA does introduce a new concept in this "balance" thing. That without Jedi, there can be no balance.
So balance might mean no Sith can exist but many jedi must exist in order for there to be balance.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Very good article, I can't believe I haven't seen it until now. It's really hard to find such an unbiased, honest journalist writing about Star Wars.

However when it all comes around, the debate regarding the old bitter fans getting their "revenge" in this new Disney-era is just useless. Granted, it is sour that so many media outlets still write about the PT as being universal hate subjects although they aren't, but you don't need to look further away from the media to see the truth. Whenever I talk to friends or acquaintances who aren't SW fans but have seen all the movies including TFA, they always imply that they like and enjoy all of the movies.

It's not that strange actually. All SW films are big, action-packed and adventurous blockbusters. Of course they are all enjoyed by the general audience.

 

He's not a Sith Lord. Kasdan, Abrams and Kennedy have all said that they're not contradicting the films. Snoke is a dark side master, but not a Sith. Other dark side users exists in the GFFA. He's never called Darth Snoke and Ben Solo is Kylo Ren and not Darth Ren, or Darth Kylo.

Do you really think it is wise to tell Luke that the dark side is stronger?

So your belief is that the audience is dumb? What TFA establishes is that Kylo Ren is not a Sith. Snoke even says so.

SNOKE: "There's something more. The droid we seek is aboard the Millennium Falcon. In the hands of your father, Han Solo."

KYLO REN: "He means nothing to me."

SNOKE: "Even you, master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test."

And Maz makes a distinction as well.

MAZ: "The only fight: against the dark side. Through the ages, I've seen evil take many forms. The Sith. The Empire. Today, it is the First Order. Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy. We must face them. Fight them. All of us."

And the audience knows that Vader and Palpatine are still Sith in the OT, especially after seeing the PT. The ST doesn't use the Sith name. Snoke is Snoke and Kylo Ren is a Knight of the Ren.

It's not a new concept. The Jedi keep the balance of the Force intact. That's always been part of their function until the time that Anakin was needed to restore the balance. Which he did. Now the Ren have tried to extinguish their flame again and if there are no Jedi to maintain the balance, then all is lost. Luke still exists and he can restore the Jedi Order, thus allowing the balance to be maintained. But the dark side is always there. And as we've seen now, there are others who could try to upset the balance, but the Sith are the only ones who ever did so.

 

To me there is no contradiction. To me, Yoda doesn't want to admit to Luke that the Dark Side is stronger, he doesn't want to put that truth into Luke's head just yet for the obvious reasons. We see in Yoda's response, in the tone, and the quickness he responds that Luke has hit a chord.



We further see that Yoda cuts Luke off. If we pay attention to Luke's line of questioning we can surmise that Luke was probably going to ask Yoda why he can't use the Dark Side or at least find a way to use both sides. Yoda doesn't want Luke to go down that rabbit hole, so nips the questioning in the bud, because Yoda knows what is coming next, the cave. The lesson of the cave should be enough to answer Luke's probable question of why he can't use the Dark Side...

When one uses the Dark Side, they become that which they swore to destroy...

The bad guys or bad side being stronger than the good guys has always been a motif in storytelling. The good guys can't match the bad guys in strength or power. Instead the good guys have to use their intellect, their love, their compassion. They have to rely on friendship etc etc...

Just a couple examples..

David and Goliath. The good guy can't match the raw power of the bad guy, so the good guy uses intellect..



The smaller weaker Smurfs aren't nearly as strong and powerful as Gargamel, so they rely on love, compassion for one another, friendship and intellect.






Your inserting the difference between which side is stronger into the balance of the force also leaves much to be desired as well. The balance that is talked about in Star Wars has nothing to do with which side is stronger than the other. It has to do with the influence that one side has over the other and the galaxy at large.

We know that balance is not, repeat not a numbers game. Why do we know this, well because the Sith never disappeared like the Jedi thought they did. But apparently there was nothing wrong with the Force in that millennium that the Jedi thought the Sith to be extinct.

If the mere existence of the Sith is what caused unbalance, than the Chosen one would have been brought long ago. As well as the Jedi would not have been so resistant to Qui Gon's assertion that the Sith had returned.


The Force only brings about the chosen one when it starts to become unbalanced which coincided with the rise of Palpatine. Palpatine's rise to power, and his plan, his influence on the galaxy as a whole is what brought unbalance. Through his plots, plans, schemes, not only did the Sith become more powerful, but it also brought power to the evils of the galaxy. We see this in TPM when Sidious is able to influence the Trade Fed to do something they normally wouldn't. We see in AOTC and ROTS with the Clone Wars when The Senate, which obviously has an anti-clone law in effect, simply surpasses that law by granting emergency powers to Palpatine. The Tarkins and other evil Officers in the Empire that would have never moved into the positions of power they were in if the Sith were never in power.

The imbalance isn't simply because the Dark Side is stronger, it is because the Dark Side's influence is now palpable in the galaxy, overall evil has benefited from the Dark Side being mainstream. With the destruction of the Sith, the vehicle that the Dark Side has rode in on is gone. All those evil people that got pulled up by the influence of the Dark Side will be relegated back to the shadows where evil leaves.

The perfect real-life example is again, Hitler and the Nazi's. With the rise of Hitler and his twisted ideology, it paved the way for other evil men to rise with him. Himmler, Eichmann, Josef Mengele (The Angel Of Death) etc etc Without the rise of Hitler and the Nazi's, those evil men would have never been in a position to do what they did. So the Rise of evil, brings more evil and evil's influence reigns until set right by the good guys...

What Palpatine did as a Sith is very similar, and is what caused the imbalance. As evil's influence grew throughout the galaxy, the imbalance negatively affected the Jedi's ability. It was never a numbers game, it was never a one side is physically stronger than the other. It was always a game of influence... So the Rise of evil, brings more evil and evil's influence reigns until set right by the good guys...

 

David also killed 7,000 Syrians (II Chronicles,) and not with intellect.

There are just as many examples of the "good guys" smashing the face of evil without a prayer on the side of "evil".

Samson anyone?

This took me back, good times!

Just how exclusive are strength and influence from eachother?

Apparently.

An interesting way to look at it. Wouldn't the Force need to bring about a "Chosen One" every time unbalance was imminent?

Once more, a good way of looking at it. But I would still challenge, influence and strength are not mutually exclusive.

True. Evil does attract more evil, especially when evil is in power.

 

I didn't say that it was the only motif used ever, now did I?

The bottom line is that it is a motif, one that is used in various forms of literature, movies, etc etc. The underdog motif is born from it.

This is what, imo, Lucas was aiming towards with the idea that the Dark Side is stronger, yet the Light, the good guys can and do win.

Yup, transformers have the same sort of motif going for them. The deceptions are usually stronger, yet the Autobots usually win through friendship, and working together as a team for each other, while the stronger deceptions usually are more individualistic in their approach.

In the terms of what we are talking about, they are completely separate of one another. If in regards to the Sith, if the Dark Side's influence was completely dependent on it's strength, than it would never had needed to be in the shadows for a millennium. Because of the corrosive nature of the Dark Side's power, it had to remain in the shadows, and influence behind the scenes until that influence was strong enough to be put into action in the PT.

Basically, if the the imbalance was because the Dark Side was stronger, than all the Sith would need to do is merely show up. They don't. The Dark Side is stronger, but, that strength puts limitations on the Sith (or any dark side user) because of the corrosive natures of greed and hate and the lust for power.

Why would it? basically what you are asking is what do I think the Force is thinking. I can't really answer that. You seem to want to justify another Chosen One storyline, yet, that is not what the prophecy foretold. Eventually, from a mythology sort of way, a divine force wants the beings it watches over to either learn or fail... Or in other words, Do or Do not.... There is no in-between (try)

It depends on the story the person wants to tell. It can be mutually exclusive if the storyteller wants it to be. It can be directly connected of one another, if that's part of the story one wants to tell. If you wanted to tell a story where they were directly linked, than that;s the story you want to tell.

To me, Lucas didn't want to tell that story. He wanted to tell a story that shows the true and righteous path is not one through strength or power, or the ability to overpower everyone. Yet it is in compassion, friendship, restraint, sacrifice etc etc. Not giving into the easy path, where you can simply just kill anyone you want making you better than everyone else, but, rather understanding and even self sacrifice.

[/quote]

 

The Jedi and Sith are merely organizations. It stands to reason that a Force user would not necessarily have to be a member of one of these two groups. In other words, the potential for "Dark Jedi" follows logically from the existence of Jedi. For one thing, in the PT we hear Anakin threatened with expulsion. For this threat to have any weight at all, even on a conceptual level, there must be a possibility of a Jedi leaving the order. ( As an aside, we saw just such a thing in TCW, and there is the AOTC deleted content about the Lost 20. In TCW, we also have the Nightsisters, the Dagoyan Masters, the Force Wielders, the priestesses... )

 

No, TFA does not establish this.
The PT establishes two kinds of Force users, light side Force users, the Jedi, who can have different colors in their lightsabers. And dark side Force users, the Sith, who only have Red lightsabers.
Kylo fits this, he is a dark side Force user and he has a Red lightsabre.
So to an audience that have only watched the films, they would most likely think he is a Sith.
You know all the EU and what not, but I am talking about casual movie goers that have only watched the films.

The Knights of Ren, who are they exactly? Are they a group of Force users? The film doesn't say.
But we see a quick flash of Kylo standing in front of some other guys in the rain. This was in Rey's vision. Are those the Knights of Ren? Possibly, but none of them have any lightsabers so if they are, then it seems unlikely that they are Force users. And no other Force users in the FO are ever mentioned apart from Kylo and Snoke.

And that is another Sith similarity, they always were two Siths.
And in TFA, we have Kylo and Snoke, two again.
And Snoke appears in the form of a hologram, very similar to how Sidious appeared in much of TPM and he was a hologram in ESB as well.

So the Knights of Ren could just be a military group that Kylo is the head of.
The lack of Darth is also not significant. Dooku is never called "Darth Tyrannus" onscreen.
He is Dooku except in one scene, were he is called Lord Tyrannus.
Snoke's full name is never mentioned, it is always supreme leader Snoke or just Snoke.

The Sith ran the Empire, so that is not much of a distinction. And Maz does not make a mention of what kinds of Force users Snoke and Kylo were supposed to be, she ONLY mentions the Sith, a point in my favor.

And what she says, kind of undermines the prophecy as well. She says that evil can take many forms and has done so over many centuries and when it rises, the good guys has to fight it. Essentially, the fight against evil never ends. So Anakin killed one Evil guy and helped bring down the Empire. Now the FO has risen from that Empire and more Evil guys are around.

Since the films don't explain what sets Palpatine apart from Snoke in the evil bad guy department or what separated Palpatine from the other siths that existed before him or much at all about the prophecy. As far as the films go, Palpatine needs to die because he is an evil bad guy.
Snoke is also an evil bad guy so is there a prophecy about him too?

As for the names, see above.

[/QUOTE]

How would this work, the Jedi are needed to maintain balance?
What about the time long ago, before any lifeforms became Force users. Was the Force unbalanced then?
What you are saying means that Jedi have existed since life began.

If there are no Force users at all, good or bad, is the Force still unbalanced?

Also, you have argued in the past that the Sith in the past didn't upset the balance, it was JUST Palpatine and maybe Plag. They did something no other Sith have ever done and that is why the Force became unbalanced, not just them being dark side Force users.

I have asked before if the Force would become unbalanced if other dark side Forcers arose and was told, No, only Palpatine does this because he is extra evil and did some really dark evil spell that unbalanced the Force or what ever.
But this isn't in the films in any way.

Now it seems that other dark side Force users can upset the balance which makes Anakin and the whole prophecy thing not very special.

@Arawn_Fenn

In case you missed it, I was talking about people that have ONLY seen the films, so TCW is irrelevant here.
Second, if a Jedi leaves the order, he/she would be an ex-Jedi or former Jedi, not a Dark Jedi.
And Lucas has said that the term Dark Jedi is an oxymoron.

The PT/OT keep it very simple, there are Jedi and there are Sith, that is it.
And the Sith have a few very clear characteristics, Dark side users, Red lightsaber, work in twos and all this fits Kylo and Snoke.
Also Kylo worships Vader and wants to be just like him. Vader is a Sith so why would Kylo not want to be a Sith too?

To sum up, regular audience members, if they think if any label to put on Kylo and Snoke, it would be Sith.
Or they might just view Kylo and Snoke as Bad guy Force users, in the same vein as Maul, Sidious, Dooku and Vader. They are pretty much the same, just Bad guy Force users.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Agreed. Right in SW the actual destruction of the Jedi Order itself as well as deceiving them to feed the Dark Side in the first place is apparent in the story.

If the Jedi for thousands of years weren't playing some part in the balance of the Force (and realizing their part in it) then the concept of it being out of balance would be meaningless to them in the first place.

They don't ask "What is this balance of the Force thing all about?" Obviously there is both the Light they represent and the Dark the Sith represent.

Balance is inherently part of their existence. In this case in the previous thousands of years it's against the Sith who not co-incidentally were born out of the Jedi Order itself in the first place.

Luke's rebuilding of said Jedi Order is part of maintaining the balance of the Force which Anakin restored. Now if Anakin hadn't restored it then a new Jedi Order (even if they could exist) wouldn't be able to do anything. They would be in a continual and unwinnable situation.

The Force being out of balance to the degree the Sith achieved in the saga was something that either never happened before or if it did then it's so long ago as to be meaningless to the Jedi Order or anyone else.

The Force was not out of balance the last time the Sith terrorized the galaxy. It was an open and upfront battle. What Sidious and the Sith plan was to turn allies against each other on such a massive galactic scale that the Dark Side would be everywhere.

True. There really is no distinction in TFA that would lead the average viewer to not think that it's most likely that Snoke and Kylo Ren are Sith.

The way to distinguish them as not being Sith are very easy to do and none of this was done. In fact quite the opposite. Any average viewer familiar with the saga has no reason to not make them Sith.

So if they are not Sith (which we are being told outside of the movie) then the details will be in VIII or IX.

It has though as far as we know and are told.

If the Force being out of balance happened before then it was before the time of the Jedi Order itself.

No one in the story talks about the Force being out of balance again or that it's happened time and time again. The story itself is telling us about a Jedi prophecy (we don't even know when it was foretold) that talked about The Chosen One. So as far as the story itself goes it's a one-time event that cannot be corrected by the Jedi Order in and of itself.

How the Force maintained balance before we don't know. Do actual Force users themselves play a part in the balance? It seems so. All we are concerned with though is the Jedi and Sith (and Sith came from the Jedi) anything else is so far out of the story that it's nice to conjecture but won't get us anywhere.

The Jedi reaction to Anakin tells us that this is all unique to them. They have no guide to this ever happening before. The way the Sith were able to undermine the Jedi and the entire galaxy has never happened before.