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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SW Saga Fan, Oct 28, 2015.

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  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Animated Jabba looks terrible in all versions & the scene is useless IMO. It mainly repeats what we learned from the Greedo scene.
     
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  2. JoshieHewls

    JoshieHewls Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 16, 2013

    Sorry DD, but I think you're suffering a bit from wishful thinking. Disney had no qualms about throwing his treatments out for the ST, you really think they'd be waiting this long for an OOT release? They could have done it with their digital release and didn't. I'm sure it had less to do with respect and more to do with realizing that the general audience doesn't care too much about the OOT/SE argument as some of the fan base appears to.

    I'm not saying we won't ever get the OOT, and I'm not against its release. But saying they're not releasing it out of respect for Lucas is a huuuge stretch.
     
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  3. Banana-Wan Kenobi

    Banana-Wan Kenobi Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2016

    Going to disagree. While Jabba 1997 is really jarring, 2004 is very detailed looking and one of the few things that actually match with the OT SE's changes with CGI.
    Plus, having a scene like that in the movie gives it better pacing and more story.
     
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  4. TheMoldyCrow

    TheMoldyCrow Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2015
    As I said earlier, he does look leaps better than the 1997 version, but he still looks pretty off compared to the version in Jedi. I honestly think the Jabba in TPM is better, despite the fact that it's technically older than the 2004 Jabba. At least with that version there is a 36 year gap between TPM and ROTJ, so it would make a little sense for Jabba to look different from how he did in Jedi.
     
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  5. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 7

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    Jan 19, 2016
    Personally I would have preferred Jabba left out of ANH totally. I agree he's redundant, and what's more CG Jabba feels out of place and he doesn't match the feel or aesthetic of the rest of the film. This is one of the few SE changes which I think are actually for the worst. I mean, I think the scene does seem unnecessarily silly too. But the 2004 DVD CG cleanup really did improve the scene as well IMO. Much better than the really rough looking 1997 SE CGI. Having said all that though, I can't say Special Edition CG Jabba really bothers me deep, deep down. He doesn't hurt the story for what it's worth, he only lengthens it unnecessarily, (I assume) for the purpose of some kind of proof of concept for a totally CGI character. And let's not pretend ANH doesn't look terrible in other (i.e. 1970s-era special effects) ways. Anyway wacky computer-generated Jabba is neither here nor there. I won't lose any sleep over it.
     
  6. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Of course, it would have more to do with scheduling a big HD release of the original films. They have a tight schedule of movie releases to navigate. Right now it's not their no 1 priority. It will happen though. I wouldn't be surprised if we get it for the 40th anniversary next year.
    The Jabba scene is completely redundant IMO. Do we need to hear Han say "even I get boarded" twice within 10 mins in the film? Jabba's best introduction in the OT was in RotJ. Not some badly animated version in a pointless scene.
     
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  7. Banana-Wan Kenobi

    Banana-Wan Kenobi Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2016

    I'm not going to complain about the gap looks as I don't care too much. It doesn't do anything to hurt the continuity or add to it. much. I do agree that his scene is sorta pointless, and having him be CGI in ANH is a little jarring compared to Jedi(still, can't go back in time and redo the scene) but I felt the Jabba scene was nice even though it didn't do much for story, it was cool to see the interaction.
     
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  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    But Marcia Lucas wanted that scene to be kept in.
     
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  9. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    More likely there is some legal clause in the sale to Disney about SE and OOT releases.
     
  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    If he inserted legal clauses he would've made sure they used his ST outline. As if releasing the OOT is against the deal. Esp if they still always make the SE's available. Lucas probably won't even care if both versions are out there. In fact he himself included a laserdisc transfer of the OOT on dvd alongside the SE's in the mid 2000's.
     
  11. TheMoldyCrow

    TheMoldyCrow Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2015

    So?
     
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  12. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Everyone knows she was the true genius behind ANH, everything she and Gary Katz say is gold.
     
  13. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Gary?
    Kappa...

    Marcia knows her stuff, but I'm not sure bout ol Gary...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. TheMoldyCrow

    TheMoldyCrow Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2015

    Um, when did I say anything like that? I don't think I've even ever mentioned Marcia or Gary on this site at all. And, at the end of the day, I could care less who wanted the scene kept in. It's still a pointless scene, and saying "but this person wanted it in" doesn't change that.
     
  15. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    To further continue my previous post, compare those earlier concepts by Ralph McQuarrie made during the time of the making of the OT above, and the following:

    [​IMG]

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    With those other concepts made during the time of the making of the PT, for Coruscant, by Ryan Church, Doug Chiang and the other artists involved:

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]



    Those concepts made for the PT, as well as the aesthetics used for the making of the prequel movies seem to me to be very faithful to the earliest work done for the making of the OT.

    And regarding Mustafar:


    If to one, the design and the world of Mustafar shown in ROTS seems too fake and not close enough to our real world, he can blame Ralph McQuarrie for having too much imagination and not having stayed realistic when working on his concepts. Since earliest concepts of Mustafar, before the making of ROTJ, were made, which was supposed to be, initially, the Emperor's or Vader's hideout. Lucas certainly has been inspired by these concepts for having decided where Anakin and Obi-Wan would be fighting at the end of ROTS:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And as always, the concept artists involved in the making of the PT always looked back at Ralph McQuarrie's earliest work to find inspiration and stay close to what was already imagined for the OT, even if it was not possible to make those concepts become reality in the original movies.
     
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  16. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    In those concepts and in what was shown in the OT and PT movies, there was always some sort of grandeur, nobleness, whether it was, or not, possible to make these concepts become reality on screen, which has always been a very strong point of the 6 previous Star Wars movies and why it has touched the imagination and creativity of many people, even mine.

    Compare these pictures and concepts made for the OT with the ones of the PT below and you'll understand what I'm saying.

    Original Trilogy:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    Prequel Trilogy:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]


    The point I want to get at, by showing those pictures above, is that when people were working on the PT, they tried to stay close to the earliest concepts, the aesthetics and to what has been already imagined for the OT, so that it could feel like it's being set on the same universe.

    The only difference, when making the OT and then the PT, was with the tools people had at their disposal. The people working on the PT had more tools at their disposal than when working on the OT. It has never been a question to limit themselves in order to stay close to our real world. And with this false ideology of "staying close to our real world", now set in a lot of fans's minds and with the new film crews working on TFA and the Sequel Trilogy, that is why I felt TFA was less imaginative and much less innovative than the previous 6 movies... And why somehow, there was no longer this feeling of grandeur and nobleness in TFA. This mindset is also against what Star Wars, even the OT, was always about: think big and outside the box...
     
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  17. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Problem is that to many, as executed in the P.T., they still don't look 'real'; whether or not they were based based on pre-existing artwork is neither here nor there, because that wasn't what actually appeared in the the films, and that's not what people remember. (Also whether or not the provenance of the artwork is up for question, which I cannot answer). Furthermore, the artwork posted also has an artist's style behind it which is different to either sets of films; the visual style is established by the films, not either concept art or post-film-based art. The P.T. does not put things on the screen in the same way, they translate between media differently, and, randomly pulling out artwork does not alter the fact that environments, etc., as featured in the O.T. are different to those as featured in the P.T., and are perceived by many as being less realistic to the point where it feels like they are doing it just because they can, and ignoring the actor/character aspect of the films in the process. Star Wars wan't just about having things in it—as you are reducing it to, and for most people who aren't obsessives, the environments in the O.T., and probably in T.F.A. as well, are perfectly alien for 99.9% of people, and the makers of T.F.A. decided to elevate story and character above seeing things, and try make things look a bit more rough-hewn and connect them to the previous films by making them look similar or 'continuous', not by using forced similarity between some vehicles or whatever to make a forced visual symbolic metaphor thingy. In both T.F.A. and S.W., we see a character introduced to a wider world, and if simply placing our protagonist in different environments counts as doing this, T.F.A. definitely exceeds the original S.W. in this respect. Of course, this is very superficial, as we also have to take into account portraying people living in these environments, which T.F.A. does at least as well as the other films; after all, experiencing a different, alien country takes a bit more than simply seeing a photograph of its landscape. T.F.A. uses the characters to 'make' us experience these worlds, and in my book, this is much more effective and takes more creative effort than simply showing us a few pictures, which is only a very superficial level of 'imagination'. If one must see completely fantastical landscapes to feel being 'somewhere else', this shows—I don't know, it's hard to describe, but it's like a lack of emotional receptivity or depth.
     
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  18. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Might as well lock the thread. This is the 2nd one this year over the same debate too...

    Fans complain about Lucas's rhymes and yet... 20 years we rhyme the same tune... In harmony or in discord..


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    I really don't know what you're trying to say. So TFA is better because it considers that people live in these environments? Well so do most other Sci-Fi films. Why is so called 'forced similarity' between vehicles which in the PT are the ancestors of those in the OT bad, when simply reusing all of the designs in a different era is good? It just seems baseless, and hypocritical, especially when the PT used more practical effects than TFA. Shouldn't that make the PT more real?

    I also don't get where this idea that the PT ignores character and TFA promotes it comes from. Almost all the characters in the PT have some kind of arc (though Maul and Jango don't really) and definable character traits, all of which can be gleaned from the films. Alongside this, we have world building that shows us how the world of the PT operates.

    With TFA, I honestly can't tell the difference between the Resistance and Rebellion, or the First Order and Empire, and why nothing has changed in 30 years. The characters also seem to be lacking depth, such as Finn's quick defection that really affects little of his character or Poe's genericness. Rey really has very few character traits or motivations, and BB-8 is literally R2, but who does nothing in the plot whatsoever to justify himself as a full character. Kylo lacks motivation for his turn to the Dark Side, and Snoke has no character to speak of.

    Why are these shallow characters considered deeper than someone like Anakin, a character rich in metaphor and depth, whose background as a slave has a fundamental effect on his character, who has realitsic conversations as expected of a conflicted 19 year old, who is deeply attached to those he loves, even to his detriment, who sees corruption in the system and disagrees with the Jedi.
     
  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Actually, prior to ANH, most Sci-Fi didn't do that.
    The clothes all looked new, as did the ships, everything was brand new and shiny.
    That was a new thing that ANH brought, the "used future" as some called it.

    After ANH then yes designing the ships to look old, beat up and have the clothes look worn, that became more common.
    Take Alien as an early example of that.

    Comparing the whole PT with just TFA isn't terribly fair.
    So let's look at just TPM, did Qui-Gon have a character arc? Did he change very much as a character during the film?
    To me, he didn't. The big change with him is that he went from being alive to being dead.
    He found Anakin and decided that Anakin was the chosen one. But character-wise not much happened to him.
    Or Obi-Wan, did he have an arc over TPM? Again not to me.
    He was the obedient pupil throughout the film. He changed his opinion about Anakin, mostly because Qui-Gon forced him to make a promise.
    To me, I think it would have been better from a character stand point to have Obi-Wan make this choice on his own and not have it be forced upon him.
    Anakin in TPM, did he change much as a character?
    His circumstances changed a lot, he went from slave to Jedi to be, he left his mother behind, which pained him. But he is this happy, go lucky wonder kid from start to finish.
    When it comes to Anakin, much of his change as a character occur off-screen.
    Between TPM and AotC he changes a lot and he also changes between AotC and RotS.

    As for world building.
    How the republic/senate works does not make a whole lot of sense based on the films.
    Apparently there are no laws about signing treaties under duress.
    There are anti-slavery laws but when it comes to the clone army, which is an army of slaves, that is totally ignored and not even mentioned once.
    A ruler of a planet, that is not a member of the senate, can call for a vote of no confidence towards the chancellor. It would like if the mayor of NY did the same thing in the US congress.
    The republic apparently has not a single soldier but private armies, like the TF, can run around and be involved in fights.
    What does the seps want, they mention they have demands but what those are is not answered.
    Speaking about the seps, how different are the TF from the seps?
    Not much, well the TF is a part of seps but the rest are much the same, greedy evil capitalists that have big droid armies.


    The Empire and the FO are quite different and to me this is readily apparent in the film.
    The Empire is a big government, they rule the galaxy. The FO control a much smaller part of the galaxy and comes across much more as a group of terrorists than a government.
    Also, the members of the FO, not Snoke, are all young. Hux, Kylo and the other officers we see.
    The Empire has more older people, like Tarkin and some of the other officers are middle aged.
    This subtly tells us that the empire is older while the FO is new.
    Also with Hux and Kylo, there is a fanaticism there that isn't really present in the Imperial officers. Hux's speech before SKB fires is pretty much the opposite of the icy cold detachment that Tarkin has before blowing up Alderaan.
    Now I found Hux to be a bit underwhelming as a character and more could have been done with him.
    Kylo also lacks the control and calmness that Vader has. Kylo craves it but can't achieve it.

    As for Rey, I bought her as a character in TFA, with Anakin in TPM, I didn't see Anakin Skywalker, I saw a little kid trying to act. Rey is alone and abandoned and clings to the vain hope that her family will come and save her. So much does the cling to this that she rejects chances for something different several times. She has a hard surface and likes to act like she needs no help. But when she gets it and Finn comes back for her, that moved her a lot.

    As for Finn, his motivation for the first half of the film is fear.
    The first battle was likely his first real combat and he is sweating bullets and looks like he could throw up at any time. And he knows that his superiors know that he didn't shoot. So he figures that he would at best be sent for "re-education" and at worst shot for treason.
    So he wants out, at any cost. That is why he frees Poe, that is why he has no problem shooting his former comrades. He is being selfish and only wants to save his own skin. He will help people if he thinks he can benefit from that but his motivation is purely selfish. And that is why he leaves in Maz's place. He wants out, saving his own skin is more important than anything.
    But he changes his mind after he sees that Rey has been taken and he finds that he does care more about her than his own survival. So he stops running.


    [/QUOTE]

    One reason could be the acting.
    If a character is "Rich in metaphor" but the acting isn't good, all that subtext and depth is lost as people won't care and are only annoyed at the poor acting.
    That happened to me, on paper, the character of Anakin has a fascinating arc and a rich story.
    But the poor acting in TPM made me not see the character at all and in AotC the acting is better but I found the character totally unlikable and wanted someone to take him away from the film or at least smack some sense into him.
    In the first half of RotS he finally works ok, he stopped being an annoying **** and I could finally see his friendship with Obi-Wan. But then he has to hold an Idiot ball in the latter half of the movie.
    And I think RotS did a disservice to Padme. She had been established as a strong, independent person and she gets reduced to almost a plot device gives up in the end.
    To me, it was as if she didn't exist as her own character but partly as a reason why Anakin turns and partly to make sure that Luke and Leia are born. And once both jobs are done, she is of no further use and dies.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  21. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Just in case you didn't read my post without twisting it into something you think you can argue against, I was responding to a person who said that world-making in T.F.A. lacked imagination because it didn't have grand, weird-looking environments when this is a superficial view on how to take audiences to 'a galaxy far far away.'
    But to address your points, you say that vehicles in the P.T. are 'ancestors of those in the O.T.', and if you treat the universe as real, they are; but, this is forced by tacking features found on O.T. vehicles to P.T. ones (in some cases, anyway), and if one treats the universe as real, it makes little sense for there to be no vehicles from the P.T. in the O.T. (except for those that were already in the O.T. anyway), and we get a bit of a logic and time warp, whereas re-using designs is fine because it makes sense.
    I'd also say that many people believe that the characters in the P.T. are much shallower and/or less relatable than those in the other films (similar for world-building); of course this varies from person to person, but seems to be a common perception. If one cannot relate to or understand a character, then one cannot be taken on their journey, and the audience watches passively. Personally, I do not find Anakin Skywalker to be very realistic, even if you claim to; at most, he'd be what I'd call a 'one-percenter' where a person who acts like him, and makes his decisions could occur, be then very easily might not. And, I do not find the way he speaks and acts to be very, well, human or very well done; he is just a shallow whingey person who doesn't like things not going his way. That he is 'rich in metaphor' doesn't mean squat either; 'metaphor' and 'symbolism' can be read into things just as easily as, if not more easily than actually writing them in, and 'metaphor/symbolism' does not replace a solid character (which many think Anakin isn't) although it may augment it; nevertheless, in a good (accessible) film, I needn't see any of it to get character and meaning, so going 'Der! Can't you see all the symbolism, dumb—!' doesn't fly with me. It could all easily be projected into the film, so I go off 'what would you see', not, 'what you think into it'; your enlightenment could easily be delusion.
     
  22. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    I don't get this, how is reusing old designs in a supposedly 'new' era better than actually creating new designs that look like realistic evolutions (or devolutions in this case)? How does it make more sense? What vehicles in the PT have 'tacked on' features? None of the OT designs are reused, but several are given lineages to older vehicles. For example, the Venator in ROTS is clearly a more militarised ship than any previous ones seen in the PT, but still retains a more elegant shape and colours, that are removed by the time of the OT, to show a change in attitude behind their construction. The one's in the PT still have a semblance of artistry, while the OT one's are more industrial. With TFA, the only thing that can be said about the new Star Destroyer is that it's been squashed a bit. No rationalisation given. Other designs like X-wings and TIEs are almost identical, despite 30 years of time. X-wings were already beat-up and old in the OT. Why would they still be used 30 years later, other than nostalgia?


    With Anakin, there is tangible depth. One can see elements of his characterisation the lead directly to his actions in later films, his over-attached nature, his concept of forcing people to do what he thinks is right, his distrust of the Jedi council, which is evident from his first scene with them.

    With Rey, what can you actually say? She has abandonment issues, from some unexplained event, that she's never seen overcoming. Yet by the end of the film, she's happy flying off to Luke despite no actual advancement of that plotline. She has skills with a staff. She adopts BB-8 for no real reason. That's about it.

    Depth doesn't need to be metaphor filled, it's simply derived from what you learn about a character. With Rey, I learnt barely anything about her, making it very hard to care about her. Symbolism merely adds to depth to what's already there, as you said. But with Rey there's barely anything there in the first place.

    Events in Anakin's life affect him later. Leaving his Mother leads to his fears about her, and his massacre of the Tuskens. His experience of that informs his decisions about his dreams of Padme's death.

    Nothing that happens to Rey affects her in the slightest.
     
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  23. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    You don't know that though! That's just speculation. It's possible Lucas (or Disney) wanted some sneaky or convoluted language about rereleases or the deal wouldn't make it. It does happen. Apparently Lucas really does like his Special Edition and later changes to the films, he's said so in interviews. But I have no idea whether he would mind the OOT in circulation alongside versions with his changes, and of course, neither does anyone else here. Again, total speculation. Anyway, I do think Disney will eventually release the OOT on home video (as long as there's sufficient fan demand or execs think it's good PR), but don't hold your breath. Disney has not even been that reliable about their own in-house properties. They have this arbitrary periodical release thing they call the "Disney Vault."

    Edit: Also I'd like to point out, the 2006 ANH DVD is, as you've said, only the early '90s laserdisc transfer, not the original 1977 theatrical release, and there are some differences.
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases
     
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  24. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016

    He's released them before so he doesn't really object to them being out. He just said he wasn't going to spend his time and his own money remastering and continually distributing them.
     
  25. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    It doesn't matter. He no longer owns Star Wars, and even if he does want the OOT out (which I'm saying we can only speculate about, personally I believe Lucas doesn't care. I agree with you, but I assume he'll never make a public statement about it other than what he's said about the time spent remastering and upscaling, so we may never know and it doesn't matter.), that wouldn't affect anything. No official re-re-release of the OOT has been announced or is even being discussed right now as far as we know. We can speculate Disney and Twentieth Century Fox will cooperate on it for the fortieth anniversary of Star Wars next year, but again, that's total speculation.

    But this has very little to do with the prequels anyway.
     
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