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Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SW Saga Fan, Oct 28, 2015.

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  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Even trained soldiers can freak out in a battle.
    I remember one photo of some German soldier, he was supposed to execute some civilians but instead he threw down his rifle and walked over to stand with the civilians. And he was killed with them.
    Finn had not seen battle before, at least that is what the film implies, and it scares him badly.
    And that can happen, military training is meant to reduce the chance of that and to numb soldiers and make it easy for them to take lives but it doesn't always work.

    I think it makes sense, his first real battle made him feel horrible and he wants to avoid that again and he wants to save his own skin. He is scared and wants to run away.
    He forms an attachment with Rey, probably more than anything he has felt before and he asks her to come with him. She doesn't and so he leaves anyway.
    But the sight of her being taken away is enough for him to find some courage and he cares more about her than himself.

    The acting style in the PT and OT is not all that similar. The dialogue in the PT is more stiff and formal and the characters are more reserved and distant. Lucas said he wanted to emulate older films with the PT. Regrettably, his directing was lacking and several of the actors couldn't compensate by themselves. Some of the more experienced actors did well enough but the some of the younger ones were left adrift.
    I will admit that Leia in ANH is often quite stiff and has an odd speaking voice and that was somewhat similar to the PT.
    But that wasn't a good thing and in ESB, that strange "robot" voice was gone and she sounded much more normal.
    I also think the acting, on the whole, is best in ESB and that is because of a different director, that worked more with the actors.

    Anakin is way more annoying in AotC than Luke ever was, I flat out disliked him and wished he was gone from the film. This made the death of Shmi not nearly as tragic as I didn't give two **** about how this made Anakin feel as I couldn't care a bit about him. It was tragic for Shmi, who was a character I liked in TPM and here she comes back only to die horribly.

    I understand to a point what Anakin does.
    He has visions about Padme and since his visions about Shmi came true in a terrible way, this understandably makes him desperate.
    Yoda's advice of "If your best friends dies, be happy about it and forget you ever knew him" didn't really help either.
    But I think he is taken in too easily about what Palpatine is spinning. I think that Palpatine could have told Anakin to drink his own urine for a month and that would save Padme and Anakin would have bought it.
    But the big problem is when Palpatine basically admits that he doesn't have what Anakin wants and only makes some very vague promises about how they can solve this together.
    Anakin doesn't even react to this.
    And when Palpatine says they must deal with the Jedi and all that and Anakin agrees that the Jedi will move against the senate next. That wasn't believable at all.
    Anakin had doubts about them before but when he learned that Palpatine was a Sith then all that goes away. The Jedi were totally right to mistrust him and Anakin knows it and he was all for arresting him.
    So at this point, he has no reason to believe in this Jedi plot.
    If Palpatine said simply, now you have sided with me, the Jedi will try and kill us both so we have to strike the first blow, that would have worked as Anakin is acting out of self-preservation.

    [/QUOTE]

    She has no agency of her own in the film, she is just something that Anakin is afraid of loosing.
    She is made very passive, about the only thing she does is take her ship to Anakin, allowing Obi-Wan to hide in her ship.
    Had the "birth of the rebellion" plot been in the film and she had been active in that, then it would have been something.
    She is made into a plot device as opposed to a character in her own right.
    Her death might have worked better if Anakin had hurt her badly and her wounds, plus being pregnant caused her death. Or she is given a choice to save her own life or the children and she chooses the children.

    She used to be active, now she is reactive.

    @darskpine10
    Anakins and Obi-Wans "Friendship" seems to be very much shaky even in AotC, long before that event. They bicker and argue and talk badly about each other behind their backs.
    Also, the council asking Anakin to spy on Palpatine, that affected Anakin's trust in the council more than his relationship with Obi-Wan. That plus them not making him a Master.
    Anakin didn't seem to blame Obi-Wan for this assignment and when they parted, they spoke warmly towards each other.

    Who has been asking for no conflict, the issue many have is that there is way too much conflict and far too little friendship.
    If there were 80% friendship and 20% animosity, that is something that you could then build up until the friendship shatters.
    If there is 80% animosity and 20% friendship, then people wonder why those two are even around each other.
    To me, AotC showed two guys that were not friends, but had been forced together by circumstance and if given a choice they would never be together.

    As for reasons, Anakin is an "ends justify the means" kind of guy. He has no problem breaking the rules if something good comes from it. Obi-Wan is more by the book. This leads Anakin down darker and dark paths until he crosses the line.
    Ex, take STiD, at the start Kirk saves Spock's life but also violates the rules in so doing.
    Spock reports this and this causes Kirk to loose his position as captain. And you can see how hurt Kirk was by this action. He saved his friends life and the same friend reports him.

    Lastly, in ANH, I didn't get the sense that Vader "Hated" Obi-Wan as such.
    He wanted to fight him and to end his life but I didn't get any sense that this was some strong hatred behind this.
    Vader wanted simply to prove himself superior to his old master, to show him that he was right and Obi-Wan was wrong.

    Which is another slightly iffy thing brought on by the PT.
    In RotS, Obi-Wan dismembers Anakin and leaves him to a slow and very painful death.
    Anakin, quite rightly says "I HATE YOU!"
    And every day henceforth has to be a cruel reminder to Anakin as to what Obi-wan did to him.
    Everyday he is inside this suit that Obi-Wan put him in. Every time he looks into a mirror, he sees the mask and not his face.
    So when they face each other again, now I would expect much more hatred and fire from Vader.
    But he is quite clam and collected, nothing of "You bastard, look what you did to me, I am going to make you pay!"

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  2. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    She has no agency of her own in the film, she is just something that Anakin is afraid of loosing.
    She is made very passive, about the only thing she does is take her ship to Anakin, allowing Obi-Wan to hide in her ship.
    Had the "birth of the rebellion" plot been in the film and she had been active in that, then it would have been something.
    She is made into a plot device as opposed to a character in her own right.
    Her death might have worked better if Anakin had hurt her badly and her wounds, plus being pregnant caused her death. Or she is given a choice to save her own life or the children and she chooses the children.

    She used to be active, now she is reactive.

    @darskpine10
    Anakins and Obi-Wans "Friendship" seems to be very much shaky even in AotC, long before that event. They bicker and argue and talk badly about each other behind their backs.
    Also, the council asking Anakin to spy on Palpatine, that affected Anakin's trust in the council more than his relationship with Obi-Wan. That plus them not making him a Master.
    Anakin didn't seem to blame Obi-Wan for this assignment and when they parted, they spoke warmly towards each other.

    Who has been asking for no conflict, the issue many have is that there is way too much conflict and far too little friendship.
    If there were 80% friendship and 20% animosity, that is something that you could then build up until the friendship shatters.
    If there is 80% animosity and 20% friendship, then people wonder why those two are even around each other.
    To me, AotC showed two guys that were not friends, but had been forced together by circumstance and if given a choice they would never be together.

    As for reasons, Anakin is an "ends justify the means" kind of guy. He has no problem breaking the rules if something good comes from it. Obi-Wan is more by the book. This leads Anakin down darker and dark paths until he crosses the line.
    Ex, take STiD, at the start Kirk saves Spock's life but also violates the rules in so doing.
    Spock reports this and this causes Kirk to loose his position as captain. And you can see how hurt Kirk was by this action. He saved his friends life and the same friend reports him.

    Lastly, in ANH, I didn't get the sense that Vader "Hated" Obi-Wan as such.
    He wanted to fight him and to end his life but I didn't get any sense that this was some strong hatred behind this.
    Vader wanted simply to prove himself superior to his old master, to show him that he was right and Obi-Wan was wrong.

    Which is another slightly iffy thing brought on by the PT.
    In RotS, Obi-Wan dismembers Anakin and leaves him to a slow and very painful death.
    Anakin, quite rightly says "I HATE YOU!"
    And every day henceforth has to be a cruel reminder to Anakin as to what Obi-wan did to him.
    Everyday he is inside this suit that Obi-Wan put him in. Every time he looks into a mirror, he sees the mask and not his face.
    So when they face each other again, now I would expect much more hatred and fire from Vader.
    But he is quite clam and collected, nothing of "You bastard, look what you did to me, I am going to make you pay!"

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor[/quote]


    Also during WW2, the Hittler youth where the most deicated soldiers to the Nazi cause. Ailled troops reported torwards the end of the war the regular german soldiers usually gave up to go home, but the Nazi child soldiers who were brainwashed from a young age would fight fierce to the death. Finn would have fit more with the Hittler youth than a regular german soldier since he was raised from a child to be a soldier, he would pretty much have been like a clone really, no normal life or family outside of being a solider. Someone raised to be a soldier would be glad, happy to have his first kill in battle, real life child soldier would be incapable of feeling bad or horror, such feelings would have long been drummed out of them.

    Luke was pretty damn anoying at times in ANH, supposedly Mike Nelson from MST3k hates Luke Skywalker for being a whiny brat. Ahh I was going to get power converters, Stop, doing that, get outta of there! You want the impossible! Anakin I thought had better reasons to be whiny than Luke who was older than him when he still whined.

    Yoda's advise is to be happy for those who join with the force. Unlike TCW, movie Yoda had a positive view of death and the force neitherworld, something I asume all movie Jedi would believe in. When Palps admits he doesn't have the knowledge, it is after it is too late for Anakin. He has already helped kill Mace, Palps pulled the rug after the point of no return. However, Palps did say together they could still discover the secret. Had Anakin surrended himself and Palps to the remain Jedi, there would be no chance in his view to save Padme. Siding with Palps there was still a remote chance instead of none.

    I disagree that she is a plot device in ROTS. In a early script for ANH, Vader spirituall injuries Luke's brother, C3PO attempts to treat the brother but fails, stating such darkside injuries run counter to logic and medicine. I believe Anakin inadvertently spirituall injuries Padme with the awlful things he has done and what he was planning to do. A very abstract concept.
     
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  3. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Not necessarily, and one cannot generalise these things to one person; Finn is an exception whose defection is apparently a surprise (if I remember correctly); even if they use techniques to produce completely mindless soldiers that work 99.99% of the time, there is still the possibility of somebody slipping through, breaking down or whatever.​
    Luke is stuck on a farm with a far from cheery outlook, and is held back from doing things that he wants to do by labour and work. Anakin's whinging is based on that not everybody thinks him as wonderful as he does; he—in what is presumably quite a privileged, powerful position compared to Luke, and certainly less entrapped by basic circumstance—is largely annoyed by personal resentment and ego, and he externalises blame a lot. Also, such scenes are not as generalisable to Luke as they are to Anakin, which may also be an influence of the acting.​
    Anakin is afraid of Padme dying in childbirth (I.I.R.C.), and she does give birth not long after Anakin's turn. I'm not sure whether or not he knew exactly when she was going to give birth, but you'd think he'd be aware it's pretty close. However, Anakin at no time begs the Emperor to get on with finding out this secret to saving life or whatever. Instead, he goes off to kill a whole bunch of people, many of whom are not even on the same planet; between that line in the turn scene, and Anakin saying he now has the powers to save Padme, (I.I.R.C.), he does nothing to advance this particular goal, likely a consequence of the film being effectively re-written after the conclusion of principle photography.​
    Still doesn't deal with the fact that she's gone from shaping events to watching them happen; and as far as I remember, she (nor anyone else) didn't spend any time reflecting on or referring to this either, showing that there wasn't really a written helplessness so much as being sidelined by the plot. Furthermore, that she no longer seems to be as strong-minded also shows this; she won't stick around for her children or to try fight for her ideals. And if I remember correctly, her death was intended during production to serve as a plot/dramatic element for Anakin's character: Anakin can't one-up fate and loses what he was trying to save (even though he rejected her anyway); this ties in with what I see as the overall theme of the P.T.: you cannot outrun fate. One could say this or that, some of which is supportable without too much twisting, but it still doesn't alter her loss of agency as a character.​
     
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  4. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    As far as I know a healthy young person can't concentrate really hard and use telekinesis, telepathy, or wield an improbable laser sword either. But this is what we call fiction, not real life. 8-}
     
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  5. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
  6. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Hey, I agree with you. I have no problem with how Padme's death was handled.
     
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  7. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    That wasn't at you, Hutt. I just tire of the circular insistence she's 'pathetic' because she died of a broken heart. That's what this topic often derails to.
     
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  8. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    I would ask anyone here to not take what I'm about to say as an offense or anything like that (because I think it can be a delicate matter and I don't know anything about medicine). But feel free to correct me if you want to. But I'm just describing a fact in our real world: women dying during childbirth, which is a very, very, very stressing and hard exercise, isn't something so unusual, wether it was in the past or in our current days...
     
  9. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    I agree, but they tend(ed)9 to die, because of some medical complication.
     
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  10. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Indeed, Saga. Nor is someone dying of grief of either gender a myth or merely a poetic device like so many have claimed to brush it off in RotS. It really does happen and not always almost instantaneously either. Everyone can only endure so much and some people and characters need others to greater extents. This is not a 'weakness'.
     
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  11. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    I don't know much about childbirth since I'm a guy (and I'm still single). But from what I've heard from my relative and my own mother, you need to not only have physical strength, but also be prepared mentally to endure the pain. And in the case of Padme, I don't think she was prepared mentally for this as mentionned by the medical droid. The line of "lost the will to live" might be a bummer to some, but it explains her current state of mind just before having to endure such a hard experience.
     
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  12. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    This is the weird thing when debating SW... Correlation between reality and fantasy is pointless. We sure as hell are fine with sound in space. I'm not saying anything is invalid, but it's a thought to consider. So many things we cherry pick in the saga to our liking but other things don't get a pass. And I'm speaking that for all of SW. PT included.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Anakin killed Padmé with anger.
     
  14. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Dismissing correlation is likewise NOT required and no fan should demand such of another. We don't all see art as fluff.
     
  15. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Come on, really? Speaking about sterility vs. vitality when we have the 100% industrial machine plants in OT? Even the nature is dead in OT till the awakening of the new Republic in ROTJ (Hoth is frozen,Tattoine is desert and we have 3 random shots in Yavin and yes the exception- the isolated, but still almost unpopulated Dagobah). The first world with real vitality is actually Endor: it shows when the sterile deadly Empire is about to fall. And in PT we have plenty of vital worlds (Naboo, Kashyyk etc). And this about Coruscant really made me cringe so I appologize that I answer late to the discussion. Coruscant is planet where they offer drugs (there is no such place in OT!) where even the good guys drink alcohol and we still speaking about stelirity? in a city full of vice (apart from corruption, assasins, etc.). PT show succesfully (in my point of view) the social segregation even trough worldbuilding. The fate ot the world is decided in the sterile top of the capital when there is a whole criminal world living in the underground in the same city of the ‘ideal republic‘. Heck, we have even refugies in dirty old ships who try to rebuild their life (Padme and Anakin didn‘t look exactly clean when they pretented to be such people). In Coruscant we see even the life of the ‘middle class‘ in Dex diner. Some fans even hate this scene for being too ordinary and ‘Earth-like‘.
     
  16. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    But they don't.

    And we have close to zero information to go off of regarding exactly when Anakin developed sexual attraction to Padme, and I won't speculate on it either, but I certainly don't find it fair to assume that Anakin just happened to develop those feelings at age thirteen after having not thought about her for some time. Given our dearth of information, I'm more inclined to imagine he thought of her quite a lot ever since the events of Episode I when he was nine. Their interaction there implies Padme made an impression on him anyway.

    Besides, I think we're supposed to be led to believe that there's abnormal psychology at play here with Anakin. In an (arguably unsuccessful) attempt to make Vader's mercilessness in the OT more plausible. Personally I can't object to that idea at all, but I'm more than willing to concede that the execution was ham-fisted. Among several other problems I have with the middle act of AotC. But my point is that it should be acceptable to the audience that Anakin's subsequent actions are less explainable, and I won't pick it apart. I don't see how Vader's willingness to choke important high-ranking Imperial officers could be called "explainable" either.

    Regarding Anakin's contact with his mom: this is complicated and I don't care to talk about it here. I have an Expanded Universe book that goes into detail about it, but that isn't canon anyway, and that has little bearing on the movie. However I don't see how whether, why, how, or to what extent Anakin kept in touch with his mother between TPM and AotC needed to be explained in AotC in order for Anakin's character to be compelling, but I suppose I understand how that could undermine his character development in the prequels.

    I'd also like to say I don't want to sound like I'm impugning Christensen's acting, and I have no interest in an Anakin vs. Rey comparison. I don't think these characters were intended to be pitted against each other, and as you said, Rey may be less developed as a character right now, but she's only appeared in a single film so far as to Anakin's three. So this is a false equivalence.
     
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  17. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    We can't say Padme isn't doing anything to shape events because the films doesn't focus on her since ROTS is mainly Anakin's story, which is why the birth of the rebellion scenes were cut. They interfered with the flow of the story. Despite these cuts, she was taking an active role in shaping her and Anakin's lives by having a child, and planning to return to Naboo to give birth, making plans that would never come to pass. Padme herself even said the Naboo queen would ask Padme to take a leave from her senator duties because of her pregency. Besides this, any reduction of her agency would be a symptom of her declining strength which likely was well underway before the start of ROTS. Remember, she was worried about Anakin fighting in the intense battles in the outer rim, with reports of him being killed which would be a drain on anybody, worrying if your loved one is going to come home. Wives of real life soliders and police often become burned out by worry and leave, not because they stopped loving them but they just can't handle the stress and worry anymore. Compounded by the worry of being pregnant, how it will afffect her career, how it will affect Anakin's life, how will he react to the news, what if their secret ever became public, etc. Then she is also concerned if they are even fighting for the right side anymore and what Palps is going to do once the war is over and her husband being pals with him. Not to mention war time is stressful on everybody which is why I don't see a problem with Padme in ROTS. As I said, her story is a sad one, she is a strong woman who loses her strength which kills her, its sad, its depressing, and you aren't supposed to like what happens to her.
     
  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Hmm but being sad or even losing the will to live isn't directly & instantly fatal. If it were sales of Prozac would be non-existent. The other reason this whole sequence is appallingly written are the mixed messages. We're told she's lost the will to live, which results in her dying. Presumably it's due to Anakin's situation. Yet she tells Obi-Wan she knows there's still good in him. So...she's depressed that he's turned bad but she knows he's redeemable! Does she see it as a hopeless situation or doesn't she?? She also has two newborn babies to love & take care of. What a mess. Nothing about it adds up.
    Padme has never been shown to be able to do any of those things (apart from her uncanny hangar-sense) . Are you suggesting she committed Force-suicide? If so please permit me to employ your chosen emoticon: 8-}
     
  19. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    This last sentence in bold makes me smile.

    Good points Tonyg. People even forget the bar and the night club in which Anakin and Obi-Wan go find Zam the assassin, in Episode II, which looks very lived-in, maybe not as dirty as the cantina in Episode IV, but not sterile to some eyes.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Plus we have some shots, when Anakin and Obi-Wan interrogates her at the back of the night club, of the streets of Coruscant in which there are some homless and poor people sleeping on the dirt.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016
    How do you know that? For all your subsequent arguing against making assumptions on little information, you make one that just happens to support your argument; my position is based on the fact that the human characters are just that, human: they experience human emotions and act exactly like humans.
    I think (based off what I remember in T.P.M.) that it would be odd for Anakin to have quite extreme sexual urges towards Padme rather than a 'less involved' sort of process (admiration, looking up to her, etc.). This could lead into the other I suppose, particularly after they meet, so I'd say it lacks something in building up this dynamic; the end result would of course be the same.
    I'd say in S.W., Vader is showing both that he won't take anything from anybody, and more importantly, the superiority of the power he draws upon. These continue in E.S.B., with the addition of his new position after the events of S.W., he is now in command. Also, in retrospect, it shows that everybody else, all of Vader's subordinates, are disposable from his view and possibly the Emperor's.

    ///---///---///​

    Never heard that one before. There may be things people dislike about this scene—in itself, I don't think it's great nor terrible—but I don't recall being too ordinary or whatever as one. In relation to everything else, there is a difference between simply having living objects in a picture and making things look used or lived in; locations in the O.T. generally look realistic (as distinct from 'real'), and the processes used in creating many of the backgrounds or settings in II and III didn't quite make it to many—particularly also given the character's interactions with their surroundings—and if they stand out as being obviously composited in or computer generated, then this will lose any effect of what it could be (with lighting in particular). As for the club in II, one can always find exceptions, and indeed, you inadvertently pointed this out, that most of the P.T. takes place away from grounded, 'low' environments; as those settings come across too sterile, you can get the picture. Just simply saying, 'Oh, there were more trees and rabbits in the P.T.'—as you are basically doing—avoids the point. The club scene allows for a sort-of recreation of the Cantina scene in S.W. such as the confrontation with a dodgy character or two, but to construe it as a sort of social commentary I think goes a bit far given that it's not exactly dwelt upon. As for drug selling, that is one of the most ridiculous points I've heard yet; was awareness of, and concern about that as great in 1976 as 2000? Were such things as openly portrayed and discussed back then? It's simply a reflection of modern society that a club would be shown having a drug pusher in it.

    She played quite extensive roles in the previous two films, with events centring on things she was involved in, and the first two films were very far from being just Anakin's story; R.O.T.S. is more concentrated, but still has Obi-wan wandering out of the main story for large enough periods of time, and Yoda going off to meet a convenient cameo; the two previous films tried to show a very broad story, and take from that what you will about the writing process. Pregnancy—or advanced pregnancy as is the case—would of course limit anyone from going off on long adventures anyway, it is needed to show the birth of two of our original heroes, and there isn't a sign in the other films that she is weakening mentally; in contrast, she seems determined to do what she can even though she isn't as high up now. I suppose that she does not completely lose her mental strength though; she questions Anakin several times, and their relationship still seems distant/tense enough that, particularly given what Anakin has said and done previously, for her to react as if Anakin's turning is a complete shock—'I never though you would'—ignores the previous dynamic between them. Anakin says that 'all I want is your love' to Padme, but, by the ending of the film, it is the other way round; once he rejected her, that was it for Padme.
     
  21. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    There we go, it was only a matter of time ;)

    What I was suggesting was if we choose to suspend our disbelief while watching a movie set in a fantasy universe for fictional things like telekinesis, and (as a poster above said) sound in outer space, in my opinion the only real reason we would draw a line in the sand around the idea that a character can't die from some similarly fictional non-reason like "losing the will to live" (without losing her agency) is because of our personal bias. Why is Padme's "losing the will to live" harder to swallow than the idea of Jedi Mind Tricks, for instance? I don't see how it matters if she's not Force-sensitive or she's never Force-pushed anybody or chopped anything up with a lightsaber. I wasn't even asserting Padme's death had anything to do with the Force or Force-sensitivity. Those were just other fictional things I used as an example. And of course I was not honestly suggesting she committed "Force-suicide" if that's what it even sounded like. But it's funny that you mention it, "Force-suicide" actually isn't even off the table for some fans. There's a theory she killed herself in a way by cutting off her connection to the Living Force somehow, which is basically "Force-suicide" from a certain point of view. It's possible this was accidental too. Not my idea and I can't say I find it really plausible, but it is out there. There's also a fan theory out there that it was basically Force-homicide (i.e. somehow part of Palpatine's machinations) but that one's even worse IMO.

    Personally, I can't say the way Padme had to go was very well-written and it wasn't very imaginative, but the more I think about it the more I realize I don't have a problem with it. There are worse conceits in Star Wars. In fact, there are worse ones in RotS alone. I don't think Padme's death is "appalling" by any means. If you're really appalled by Padme's weirdo death then I don't understand why you've decided to sit through the movie (presumably more than once). Maybe I would've written the death scene differently, but I don't care that much, I think it's fine and I can't take issue with it because I can't think of a better situation. If she croaked, she croaked. Anyway the most palatable explanation I've heard so far is that it was the "will of the Force." Probably a huge narrative cop-out, but I think Jedi Mind Tricks tend to be the same way.
     
  22. SuperPersch

    SuperPersch Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I think you're really minimizing the affects of mental illness here, both in our world and in SW. Padme didn't seem "sad" to me -- she seemed really ****ing depressed. "Lost the will to live" was an understatement in my opinion.

    She saw the potential for redemption in Anakin, yes. She had two babies to raise, yes. And I'll bet she had NO idea how to do either one of those things. In fact she already failed at the former. No kidding she just said "nevermindbye" to the whole mess, because what else could she do?

    WHAT MORE DO YOU MONSTERS WANT OUR PRECIOUS JEWEL TO SUFFER?

    And anyway however she died was proven pretty moot when I saw her funeral. Some of the most beautiful images I've ever, EVER seen.


    Sent from my brain using thumbs.
     
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  23. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    & in those unfortunate situations healthy young people with no discernible health problems can't press an internal off switch. They have to put up with those feelings until some sort of action is taken.
    No this doesn't work at all IMO. A fictional universe has its own rules & internal logic. Even Star Wars. There's the Force & all of the technology like hyperdrives & lightsabers. However non Force using human beings in the story are supposed to be regular people. Even if we do accept that Padme can die bcs she's sad the whole thing is still terribly done. If she'd seen Anakin's awful deeds & then was told that the twins had died then okay. Losing the will to live would make sense. But not only does she have two healthy babies to live for (& protect!) she says she believes Anakin still has good in him!! So she had everything to live for. Lucas told us one thing via the robot medic but then had Padme indicate another. Her dialogue & actions suggest someone who sadly passed away from injuries. Reluctantly leaving her kids behind & a messed up husband but one that she still believed in. Yet bizarrely we're told that she's physically fine. In tip-top condition. If only she had a will to live she'd be okay. It's bonkers.
    This & missing some more extensive fleshing out of Anakin's turn are the only problems I have with the movie. A couple of minor nitpicks aside.
    The better situation was not having the medic spout that absurd dialogue. The scene could've been the same except he doesn't declare that she's lost the will to live. Then we could speculate about what happened. Seems Lucas wanted to make sure her death wasn't directly pinned on Anakin. That she didn't die from injuries caused by him. Murdering kids is one thing, wife killing is going too far, apparently.
     
  24. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    I actually believe the scenes were delibirately shot in such a way, as to indicate, that Anakin killed her. We have Anakin attacking Padme leaving her unconcious, Padme seemingly injured dying, after the twins are born, naming the babies, and still believing there's good in Anakin, and last but not least we have Palpatine telling Anakin he killed her. The medical droid is a CGI creation, having been added in post-production. I believe GL added the line about Padme losing the will to live in post, despite it not making much sense medically or when viewed in relation to the other scenes surrounding her death. We should also not forget, that the "save from death" plot only really gained prominence during the reshoots. So, it's likely GL felt, that Anakin killing Padme undermines his reason for turning to the dark side, so Padme had to die for some other reason.
     
  25. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Yes, complaining that a diner hold by alien looks too Earth-y is strange but still many people do it ;) and yes it has a sense of regular life and that was the point. Regular place full with regular wisdom. :) My point was that Coruscant was the city of a 1000 faces and not much of them are very clean. I see the problem with the sterility actually and it is that the Republic is rich. So rich that even the dirtiest places look better than the richest places in Tattoine. But again, that is the point: it is the Golden era: even the underground is better and it will be forever lost in the dark Empire times.
     
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