Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

But there is no ambiguity to this scene, as Lucas states that he didn't want fans to think that Anakin killed her as then he would have truly been a monster. (I'm paraphrasing, but that is the jist of it). Padme died because she lost the will to live, as there is no debate of this plot point. Now if Lucas left that open to interpretation, then I think that scene would play out differently in everyone's mind. Some would say she died from Anakin choking her, some would say she died when she hit her head on the ground, some would say she lost the will to live. Some would say she died in childbirth because of the stress she was under.

I like it when things are not clearly explained in movies and TV shows sometimes because it's always interesting to see how 2 people can come up with 2 totally different interpretations. What we have now is Padme losing the will to live, and some fans are fine with it and other fans don't like it.

 

And there it is, folks.

No ambiguity. None.

Got it.

Eleven years of contentious debate shows you to be mistaken.

Despite the ostensible finitude of that line, the scene itself remains mysterious and Padme's death "up for grabs".

Well, yes, it's accurate to say that Lucas didn't want people thinking she just died of a head injury.

The rest is fertile discussion territory, however. I mean, she kind of did die from Anakin's "choke", didn't she?


One of Vader's favorite ways of dispatching people is by strangulation. Is that because of his inability to breathe without the iron lung?

Well, it's a bigger metaphor than that. Strangulation is always a theme. Life is breath. It's a powerful idea in Buddhism: Cutting off life is cutting off breath. The road to the Force is through the breath. Impotency is cutting off hands and legs and arms. That's a theme too.

Source: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-20050602

But what is "the will to live"?

People debate terms, meanings, and the circumstances of these movies all the time.

I don't think it's as black-and-white as you're making it out to be.

 

Either you are being sarcastic or hostile, as I'm not sure why? Oh well.....

 

I was simply highlighting an aspect of your response I found absurd.

Interesting that you always choose to take direct offence -- and, of course, skip right over the substance of a person's reply.

 

Vader is the life breath.

The ALEPH to Sidious' MEM-TET.

The Golem.

The "that's no moon"child of Palpatine & Damask, akin to Parsons & Hubbard's.

 

"The Force?

The Force!

The FORCE!!!

What has that got to do with anything?

Come on now!

We all know that fans despise all that mystical Force stuff!

They want everything totally explained and easy to digest that is why they so love the idea that the Force is totally explained by the midi-chlorians.

If I read you correctly you are saying the Force reached out to Padme?

That makes no sense at all. This would makes things all mysterious-y and we all know how no one likes the Force to be at all mysterious.

Oh wait...

They do.

But then..

Man this is so confusing!"

The above is a representation of the thoughts that a bewildered fan might have who on the one hand talk about how they like the mystery of the Force of the OT but for whatever reason refuse to see the same in the PT.

Always a puzzle to me personally.

She DID die directly from his actions. He turned to the Dark Side and destroyed himself, their lives and everything she held dear. The viscerally "satsifying" thing would for the Force choke to merely physically take her breath and life away. Instead Lucas did it in keeping with the PT and Star Wars overall and did it poetically. Luke was the one who ended Sidious with his actions. It was Anakin though who physically stopped him.

Then consider the connection between Padme and Luke. Anakin's turn to the Dark Side kills Padme but his return to the Light saves Luke. The thing he couldn't do before that would have saved Padme.

 

Maybe Padme should've saved herself. Considering that medically she was "completely healthy". And she had two newborn children to look after. Powerful friends like Bail & Obi-Wan. And she even "knew" that there was hope for Anakin. How much incentive to live does a person need!??

 

It isn't just that she has kids and believes in Anakin

Anakin essentially singlehandedly destroyed everything she had ever fought for in an effort to save her, and at the same time committed horrible atrocities to do that. There's a chance that Padme might even feel partially responsible for this, but she did try to assure him everything would be alright. Anakin didn't even know it, but he was constantly placing himself before his own wife when he thought he was doing it for her - he wasn't. And it took all that for him to realize it

So at the same time, Anakin brings that own fate upon himself

And there lies the fundamental differences between Padme's death and Anakin's metaphorical death. The weight of losing everything she ever had and fought for was too much for Padme. It probably would have been too much for Anakin also IF he felt he had anything left to live for. He was in a state of emptiness. He had literally nothing left to live for but service to Sidious, and what kind of life is that?

To put it perhaps a step further poetically, Padme's heart was broken and Anakin's was gone. It's only through Luke's emergence that he "gains" his heart back, so to speak

 

That's the thing, she didn't lose everything she ever had. Far from it. She had two healthy newborn children. That should've been more important & given her more will to live than anything she'd ever known. Yes, Vader should be the one who thought he'd lost everything. Padme should've been the opposite. She had two massive reasons to want to go on. & even if she didn't, their safety & care is more important that even herself.

 

I still believe Padme's death is a recycle of Luke's brother's death from a early version of The Star Wars script. Again, in that ealy script, Vader spiritual injuries Luke's brother which is fatal, C3PO attempts to render aid but it is futile as he comments that injuries to the spirt run counter to logic and science. Both are mythical and abstract deaths which were beyond the understanding of droids who can only think at the literal level (like some fans). The big difference is in The Star Wars, it was intentional by Vader while in ROTS it was unintentional by him, a consequence of his actions and poor choices. By trying to save her he destoryed her spirit instead.

 

However, problems.
One, something like 98% of the audience would not be aware of that scene from an early version of the script so how are they supposed to be able to understand what is going on when this type of "power" has never been seen before or since?
Two, if the Force is somehow involved, given that Obi-Wan is right there and Yoda is nearby, wouldn't they be able to sense something? So not only is this some new Force power but you also have to ignore why Obi-Wan and Yoda senses nothing.
In short, as explanation go, not very convincing.

Also, the droid says "...LOST the will to live."
If her life is just drained away by some mystical means, why bring this up?
If her cause of death is unknown, simply says that. "She is dying and we can't understand why."

The film brings up that Padme seems to have lost the will to live and that is why she is dying, so this can be interpreted in several different ways.
One, she thinks life sucks now that Anakin is evil and is actively causing her own death.
So she is in effect killing herself.
Two, Anakin's actions made her so sad that she gave up and couldn't fight anymore. So her death could have been avoided by her fighting but she lacked the willpower or strength to do so.
So she didn't actively kill herself but she ler death take her due to lack of strength/will.

To sum up, the film implies that Padme dying is due to something with her. Either her spirit is broken and she can't fight anymore. Or she wants to kill herself. Or she is so depressed that it kills her.

Lucas left it a bit vague and up for interpretation what happened here so the above are valid interpretations.

To me, I think that having Anakin injure her on Mustafar and those injuries combined with being pregnant is what kills her. That might have worked better.
Say that instead of choking her, when Obi-Wan appears, he yells at her for a bit. Then he moves to take out his lightsaber but Padme steps between him and Obi-Wan and pleads with him.
Anakin yells at her to move out of the way but she refuses so in the end he Force throws her out of the way. But he is careless and she hits the ship hard and is injured. This enrages Anakin even more and he blames Obi-Wan for this.
So Anakin killed her, not exactly by design but being careless and angry.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The other difference is that Luke's brother probably didn't have two newborn kids to look fwd to spending time with. And feel a responsibility to protect. Also, as has been continually said Padme even had faith that Anakin could still be saved! Doesn't sound like someone who's lost the will to live.

 

It seems weird that the lost the will to live thing is a point of contention. It's one of those things where some of those that dislike the prequels cite that as a problem, but really it's just a psuedo mystical line. I mean I can complain forever if I want to about how Luke has absolutely no way of knowing that taking off Vader's helmet can kill him, because Luke has no personal knowledge about that stuff. It's a force thing, why bother with it? This kind of thing has been prompted by those who want to nitpick the movies. In real life, people don't just die when they're perfectly healthy because they've lost the will to live. It's not a real life situation, so there's no reason to try to treat as one, trying to say that she had kids or whatever has no place with it. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

 

It's not just the will to live line. It's a doctor in a sophisticated facility examining her & declaring that "medically she's completely healthy". That's not mysticism. That's a scientific medical diagnosis by an expert.

I think anyone, including Luke can assume that the guy in the walking iron lung with the heavy mechanical breathing needs to keep his breath mask on. That's common sense, nothing to do with the Force.

 

As much as I love the PT, this was really awkward, especially since the line came just when she gave birth to two healthy babies which she saw and named. Cant defend this one

 

Come to think of it, the very idea of being medically healthy, and losing her, as in dying, seem mutually exclusive terms to me. How can you medically determine someone is dying, and maintain she's medically healthy? There must be something wrong with her, if she's dying.

 

Indeed. I think the point is a medical exam can't detect a "broken" heart (as opposed to a damaged heart). They needed to calibrate their scanners to measure her will to live. Rookie mistake.

 

Mature.

Besides, you guys will complain about the disparity between contrasting trilogy asthetics, yet find little significance in the colour and femininity being drained out of the galaxy as Padme dies, the spark of Rebellion not truly being reignited until her children come if age in the next film?

 

"the colour and femininity being drained out of the galaxy" ??

My complaints are about the way it was presented.

 

Fair enough, but I just think it was handled less sloppily than many people claim.

Coming from a guy's perspective of course though, I can imagine a girl looking for a role model in the female lead, unlike in the other currently released SW films (yes, all of the other six), might be left hanging. But Anakin wanting them to rule the galaxy, refusing to run away with a loving wife who is willing to stay with him despite his turning to the dark side kind of sums up his turn beautifully, that he no longer really remembers why he turned in the first place. It is easy to see why someone like Padme, especially in a mystical setting where the Skywalker bond particularly has been reinforced as very significant in both trilogies, couldn't endure this.

"Medically she is perfectly healthy" makes it a little trippy, it seems StarWarsy enough to me. Don't forget, Anakin noticed too - "She was alive, I felt it!" Plus you have both lovers asking the same thing after regaining "consciousness" - literally for Padme, and Anakin with new less-human eyes - "Is Anakin alright?" / "Is she safe, is she alright?" And Anakin ceases to exist on hearing the pov truth he has killed her "in anger".

I would agree Padme took a lot of the brunt of cut scene selection however, and the whole film could have been a little darker and arguably not quite as rushed if Lucas had stuck with the original cut of Vader's turn. I think he wanted Anakin as sympathetic as possible when he initially betrays Mace, which had both good and bad effects on the final film. It certainly emphasises Anakin never really felt he was enough for Padme as a Jedi, despite what she tries to tell him. And the circular irony that if he hadnt acted on the dreams would she even have died?

 

The original cut had more fill in. Think of it like BVS in a way(no where near its editing though). Padmes rebellion scenes, More of Anakins POV and his turn. The turn was changed for the best. The original turn lacked motivation, as Lucas admitted. Him turning on Mace and falling for Palpitines lies on saving one from death.

But that's the magic of editing. You can look at ROTS and it still holds together because Lucas left enough room for re-shoots.




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Sorry if this is a dumb question but what does BVS stand for?

But besides that I mostly agree. Lucas really made the fall more concise with the final cut. If you tweaked any part of it you would have a fairly hard task of maintaining the emotion of the narrative and the pace of his fall. I think both what we saw and what was originally filmed delivers in different ways.

I do however, if Im being perfectly honest, feel Lucas should have given his audience a little more credit. I think he should have made a longer movie, but was afraid the audience wouldn't get it and Anakin would come off as more of a jerk and thus less tragic... less contrast between "Anakin" and "Vader" was the vibe I got from what I know of the film's production.

I love how emotional the final cut is, but I think Anakin was more believable as someone who would turn originally - more aligned with Palp's political views earlier on, less humble about his place in the Jedi Order, and the most important part; Palpatine was to reveal he created Anakin himself. Would be an "I am your father" moment that actually accomplished what Vader intended with Luke in the OT, and make the risk of Luke turning more prominent. Plus more satisfying when Luke "breaks the cycle".

Dont get me wrong, ROTS makes Luke look way more at risk of falling in ROTJ than before the PT, Lucas put heaps into establishing this. And he obviously had to be careful not to shrink the universe too much, to maintain believability.

 

Ah thanx. I typed the initials into google when Ezon Pin posted but wasnt sure if it was that one

Just out of curiosity what is unique or interesting about the BVS film's editing? Was it just really focused?

I think Lucas improvises better than it might seem. Like the PT, I think, came together far more in the visual stage than during writing, if that makes sense. It can cause some inconsistencies, but does wonders for the operatic and symbolic aspect of the 6 film saga (my theory anyway).

 

I meant as in BVS editing had issues making certain parts not flow very well.. But in ROTS, the reshoots and editing really helped in the end process


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