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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SW Saga Fan, Oct 28, 2015.

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  1. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Also, and I can't put too fine a point on it but... every project is a slog, whether you like it or not. In my profession, I do creative and non-creative projects. I love what I do, and wouldn't do anything else unless forced to and the creative projects are the thing that keeps me going. The creative projects are also a slog a lot of the time. Sometimes boring, oftentimes frustrating, and completely rewarding at the end of the day when it comes out shiny and pretty. And sometimes the angriest, most hateful babies ended up being my favorites. I've never heard of an artist that is just totally positive and happy and engaged all the time with everything he or she does. That doesn't exist anywhere.

    Lucas could find aspects of the medium, or the overall process stressful and still loved what he did and still found that it was his favorite thing to do.
     
  2. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    It does seem to have a roller coaster element to it!

    Thank You for that quote Cryo! Yet again another interesting quote from Lucas. One that shows Lucas wasn't frothing at the mouth with hate over directing. Sure it may have not been "as much fun" to him as the other elements of filmmaking, but, just the wording alone suggests he saw some "fun" in it, just not "as much" of it in comparison to the other things he did. Yet again another piece of evidence that chips away at the narrative that Lucas hated directing, and every aspect of it, to the detriment of the PT. As I have said earlier, more than likely the truth is not one extreme over the other, it's not that he completely hated, nor that he completely loved it. The reality of it is probably more of a In-between where earlier in his career, the things he hated stood out more as compared to the PT era where filmmaking was more up to speed to where he wanted it.

    Yet let's look at your letter "c"... I wouldn't disagree with your outlook here, rather I find the irony in the fact that pt-haters will complain about Lucas directing abilities in that he didn't give the actors enough of it, yet often and seemingly in the same breath, the same people will also accuse Lucas of being a control freak, having to have everything his way all the time, and not letting creative people be creative, the yes man theory. Yet, isn't that what he does when he doesn't micro-direct an actor and allows them to do their own thing? To figure it out themselves? It comes across as complaining to complain without the slightest inclination of self-awareness to realize how their complaints just don't make sense.

    A
    As always cryo, it is a pleasure to read your writings!

    Exactly! Which is why my conclusion is that the idea as you presented it, isn't about understanding Lucas, and looking at all relevant information to try to get some understanding, but to merely hold up a narrative they want to believe taking into account only the information that supports said narrative and dismissing all other information.


    Thank You Heels! Also, for what it's worth, I believe there is some relevance in the current discussion about directing when it comes to the main topic of the thread. It's obvious to me that the more the "embittered fans" post about Lucas, the clearer it becomes he was right not to listen to them!
     
  3. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    I just came to drop by in "The Hot Zone" to say I appreciate all here defending the PT after a A VERY LONG standoff. Cryogenic mikeximus and of course others. Imo, I know I've said this a lot, but you guys are the reason why this section is so interesting and insightful. Can't tell you how much I learned from you guys. All the technical aspects embedded in my favorite trilogy and favorite saga. It's just incredible how much work you guys put into your posts.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Well this has been a fascinating case study. To summarise the situation so far:

    "I'm not having fun. I smile a lot because if I don't everyone gets depressed. But I'd rather be home in bed watching television. I'm only doing this because I started it and now I have to finish it. The next trilogy will be all someone else!" - George Lucas

    "Originally, I wasn't going to write it [American Graffiti] at all because I don't like writing and only do it if I have to....Unfortunately, even though I'm working on a screenplay right now, I'm not a good writer. It's very, very hard for me." - Lucas

    “I’ve retired from directing. If I directed Empire then I’d have to direct the next one and the next for the rest of my life. I’ve never really liked directing. I became a director because I didn’t like directors telling me how to edit, and I became a writer because I had to write something in order to be able to direct something. So I did everything out of necessity, but what I really like is editing.” - Lucas

    "I found myself saying (on the American Graffiti production), "I don't really like directing that much. This is no fun!" What I really like is editing; that's what I can really sit and do and lose track of time and enjoy myself. Directing is very difficult because you're making a thousand decisions - there are no hard fast answers - and you're dealing with people, sometimes very difficult people, emotional people - I just didn't enjoy it. So I was going to retire after that....But when I finished American Graffiti again I was broke...so I said, "I've got to get another picture going here just to survive"." - Lucas

    Why didn't you direct The Empire Strikes Back? "I hate directing. It's like fighting a fifteen-round heavyweight bout with a new opponent every day. You go to work knowing just how you want a scene to be, but by the end of the day, you're usually depressed because you didn't do a good enough job". - Lucas

    "George hated directing" - Close friend John Milius

    “George doesn’t really like directing. He hates writing – just gets no satisfaction from it at all – but he doesn’t like directing either". - Rick McCallum

    "To me, I think Lucas likes directing" - Mikeximus

    "Lucas could find aspects of the medium, or the overall process stressful and still loved what he did and still found that it was his favorite thing to do" - Sepra

    "You have to like what you're doing. Which he (Lucas) certainly did" - SW SagaFan

    [face_hypnotized] Which makes me think back to Mike's comment a few pages back when he entered this discussion:
    Which was a fair & reasonable query for someone who hadn't seen the history of comments. The funny thing is, a whole host of direct quotes from friends, colleagues & Lucas himself was then presented...& people still don't accept it! So now we have the bizarre situation which is the exact opposite of the one Mike described. The facts about GL's feelings are laid bare for all to see yet people here on the internet are saying the opposite. I guess that Lucas enjoyed directing including the Prequels must be true, bcs an internet forum says so. Never let the truth get in the way of a good (fan) theory.


    Anyway...to try to address the topic of this thread more directly, as heels1785 has encouraged. This whole thing is based on a false premise to begin with. The thread should be changed to "Was George Lucas right to listen to the embittered fans?". Reason: he clearly did. Firstly, the whole writing & making of TPM is excluded from this topic. There were no embittered fans prior to that movie. The embittered fans were created from it. Did he listen to them? Seems obvious that he did. The two most criticised elements of TPM were arguably JarJar & the Midichlorians. Certainly the embittered fans complained about them more than anything else. Both barely seen or heard from again in the trilogy. JarJar, even though Lucas has said how much he loves the character (even that he's his favorite character) was reduced from major character to background character to background extra. Midis received only one brief mention ever again. On the other hand the most popular element of TPM was the action, particularly the climactic lightsaber fight. The lightsaber action in Eps 2 & 3 was wall to wall. They were everywhere, he even had droids wielding them. So I think to say he didn't listen to the complaints about TPM & make changes for the next two is fanciful.

    Then there are these words from him following the PT: "You go to make a movie and all you do is get criticized. And, people try to make decisions about what you’re going to do before you do it. You know, it’s not much fun. And you can’t experiment, you can’t do anything. You have to do it a certain way. I don’t like that, I never did. I started out in experimental films and I want to go back to experimental films."

    "Why would I make any more (movies), when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?"

    Does that sound like someone who didn't listen to the embittered fans?? Of course it's a shame that the reaction to the PT was the way it was & that Lucas felt the fury of those fans. Doesn't change the fact that he certainly did listen to them & that they had a significant effect. So...maybe a thread title change is in order ;).

    Finally, to answer the question that this thread should be asking: yes I think he was right to listen to the embittered fans. To some degree at least. Seems obvious to me that he took the criticism on board & made changes accordingly. IMO each PT movie improved significantly as the trilogy progressed.
     
  5. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    I rest my case....
     
  6. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014
    'Zactly. :cool:

    MJ
     
  7. Palp Fiction

    Palp Fiction Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Good to see someone cutting through the bs & fan wish-fulfilment. I've read about GLs disdain for directing for years. Thought it was common knowledge.
     
  8. El Jedi Colombiano

    El Jedi Colombiano Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2013

    FFS people, can we STOP with the freakin' insults at George??

    First he commits infanticide, now parent abuse???

    this kind of bull**** needs to stop
     
  9. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Well, I do admit that George Lucas likes making movies in the broad sense. But like many quotes that have been provided show, the movie really comes together for him in the editing room. So if you consider the post-production of the movie as "directing", then sure, he likes directing and it's something that he "gave up". Throughout his 15 year gap, what other projects allowed him to put a movie together in the editing room? None really. So it seems entirely reasonable to interpret his reference to giving up directing as referring to the post-production aspect of directing, namely the editing. There is still nothing to suggest that he enjoys the writing aspect or the actual on set/location directing.
    So the narrative being put forth here is that he had some negative experiences on the OT, thought that would continue with the PT, reluctantly directed TPM, enjoyed it, and thus decided to direct the next two? Well that's an interesting take but it's rather flawed because it's not taking into account what was said about him by his closest associate after the prequels. So let's examine some Rick McCallum quotes taken from after the PT was finished. He said:

    1.) “George doesn’t really like directing. He hates writing – just gets no satisfaction from it at all – but he doesn’t like directing either" (Rick McCallum in Emirates Magazine, December 2015 issue)

    2.) "Again, if George wanted to be known as one thing it would always be as an editor. That’s his dream and that’s the part he loves the most. I think I’ve said this before, but writing is so painful for him and he certainly knows there are a lot of you who don’t like his writing (laughs). But they’re his stories and that’s the way he does it, but it’s hard for him.
    And directing isn’t the main focus of his life. He wants to gather all the material, but he’d really rather just go into the editing room and do that. The best thing about Young Indy was that it was like mail-order film making for him. He’d be editing and he’d call me up – and I was always nine or ten hours ahead of him – and say: ‘I just need a wider shot of when he walks out in Shanghai.’ But we were in France now (laughs). We’d finish in a location and then move straight on. So we did composite film making, where we’d do a hallway in Paris, the stairs in Prague, a ballroom in Moscow etc." (Rick McCallum in denofgeek interview, 2012)

    So based on the earlier quotes by Lucas taken from post American Graffiti & during the OT's production, he's stated that he hates directing (and writing) and that what he truly likes is editing. Flash forward to after the PT has been completed; we hear from his close confidant Rick McCallum that he "doesn't really like directing", "hates writing", "loves [editing] the most", finds writing "painful", and "wants to gather all the material, but he'd really rather just go into the editing room and do that". So my conclusion from all this is that he enjoys making movies in the sense that the movie really comes together for him in the editing room. But the actual on set/location directing is something he doesn't enjoy all that much and views it as simply "gathering the footage"...a necessary part of the process if he wants to be able to edit his movie together.
    The "it's not as much fun" line just seems like a phrase people say when they're trying to communicate their preference for one thing over another. If we really want to over-analyze that line & read into it, we can also interpret it as Lucas simply putting it mildly. As in, collecting the material is "not as much fun", to put it mildly.

    Another example of when Lucas puts it mildly is when he says “You go to make a movie, and all you do is get criticized, and people try and make decisions about what you’re going to do before you do it...It’s not much fun". So from him saying it's not "much fun", is he trying to suggest that he's still having a little bit of fun, just not a lot? I don't think so. It's simply another case of Lucas putting it mildly. It's just a manner of speaking, a way of communicating without appearing like you have these extreme feelings on a matter.

    But to try to bring it back to the topic of whether Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans, my answer is.....maybe? The problem is that while some fans were complaining, they weren't always on the money about what the problems truly were. Like fans might suggest things like starting off the story with a teenage Anakin. Or they might want to see an entire story comprised of Vader murdering all the Jedi. For those kinds of things, I think Lucas was right to stick to the story he wanted to tell. But what I think he should have done differently is:

    1.) collaborate with someone like Kasden on the story and script
    2.) get someone else to direct the movies

    Because for me, I enjoy many aspects of the prequels. I like a lot of the broader ideas they are trying to convey. In fact, I think Lucas is great at coming up with unique, often brilliant, ideas. So my main problems are on an execution-level. If he had brought in more people to help polish and execute his ideas, then I probably would have liked the PT a lot more.
     
  10. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    If I could find it I would, but a year ago before the release of the TFA movie, his son was interviewed saying that his dad loved to talk about the stories at the table he has been writing down and such.

    On another note of Lucas not liking writing or directing, this is something a bit skewed and there usually is more to it. I'm doing a video game with some friends of mine. I am the ONLY programmer and one of the main writers of the story....

    I hate this process. Coding, extensive flowcharting work, story rewrites(sometimes complete rewrites), character corrections, recoding, bug reports, double checks,advertising, debugging etc...

    It's grueling, monumental and sometimes, I'd rather not care and let someone else do the programming so I can focus on another things... I really don't like coding at all. But I have to and my team looks to me for this aspect..

    However, Writing the dialogue, doing actual scenes, making my own musical pieces/editing them into scenes and sound sfx is where the fun part is. That's where I mainly enjoy it. The middl and beginning process is the worst but a lot of post things are the best part. Sure I might not enjoy writing a crap ton and dislike programming but it turns out great in the end and editing them is where I love it.

    And there is nothing wrong with this.

    There is not an actual 100% fact of him that some of us claim. For this, it accounts both sides of the argument.

    I believe there is truth be told, by many here. Even you.

    There is more that meets the eye of course, so don't forget that. We don't know what Lucas truly feels. Only assume due to external observation. Some are right and some are wrong....

    To answer the threads question, I ask yet again.....

    Should Lucas have listened to embittered fans? The same ones that ridiculed him? That want more and more of his own bearings and giving a but leaving out the creator himself?






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You're right, we don't. Only he knows. If only he'd told people how he feels about writing & directing. Say...the press & his friends & his colleagues. Maybe then we'd know how he feels. We wouldn't have to guess. Oh, wait a minute...!!
     
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  12. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Gosh it's almost as if George Lucas is like all of us who like some aspects to our jobs more than other aspects. Sales people love to go out and get a sale, but they hate paperwork and rejection. Artists might love the concepting and the final product, but not the constant revisions. Computer programmers love coding or the creation, but maybe not the bug-fixing and minutia of troubleshooting issues in the code. But that's the job, and liking or disliking it is incidental. You either like it, or don't, and do it well, or don't.

    George Lucas probably didn't live for writing or directing and he loved editing. And maybe he should have brought more people on than he did. But he didn't, and I can't help but think it's because he didn't want to. And it seemed like he listened to reasonable constructive criticism after each film and created a successful set of films from that. So, I guess I still don't understand the point. In no other movie franchise is a movie maker criticized so harshly for making a popular franchise that did well.

    And maybe that's what Disney has to teach us - that the idea that every Star Wars movie has to be your top favorite movie of all time isn't a reasonable bar to set. That they can be lovely films that you get enjoyment out of is the proper metric. And maybe the best Star Wars has been yet to be made, or the "worst" or just a number of in-betweeners. But being "embittered"? Creating a documentary chronicling your disappointment? No, those people weren't listened to and shouldn't have been. Catering to that is a losing proposition.
     
  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    That's the thing, he's not being criticised here. Acknowledging his own thoughts & comments rather than denying them is not criticism.
     
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  14. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    I don't even know how to respond to that because I have read a lot of this thread and have faith in my reading comprehension.

    The cigar is definitely a cigar in this case.
     
  15. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016

    Lol. It was a joke, calm down. There's no possible way that could have gotten you that worked up.
     
  16. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Yes! Still, it can be seen, exactly in this footage that Lucas leaves the others to make the things as they see them and after this, to say “yes“ or “no“. When first he said to the concept designers, “I want Anakin to look rebelious“ they showed him a concept for him to look as fan of Sex Pistols, and of course he didn‘t like it (it is in the bloopers actually) but could the designers do that if he was so autoritarian? ;) One more thing about the details: In ROTS Anakin doesn‘t have only this big scar “on“ his eye but also some little ones that can be seen in the close plans. Not to mention the back planes in the scenes especially in AOTC. Absolute masterpiece that makes the difference between OK and exceptional world building.
     
  17. dsematsu

    dsematsu Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Lucas may not like directing, but he can direct. He gets what he wants. I mean, the guy directed one of the highest grossing films of all time and it was a visionary masterpiece that changed the entire game. I feel some people use Lucas' comments against him to prove he can't direct, when historically speaking nothing could be further from the truth. Lucas never had to direct again if he didn't want to. He chose to. This speaks louder to me than anything he's ever said on the subject. Actions speak louder than words methinks.

    I always see this as a part of Lucas' somewhat glib character. He's modest in a strange way, and people don't get that. They take his words at face value. When a guy says he doesn't like directing and then knocks out blockbuster after blockbuster, I think there may be talent there...
     
  18. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Well said here!
     
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  19. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    First and foremost, thank you for this, Del. I do try.

    Sometimes, though, it's hard to be substantial. And a thread like this one, which has a life of its own, can only make things more difficult. I'm not denigrating the level of activity; but it can be hard to keep up.

    An even more fiendish problem -- as this post now attests -- is how to grab hold of all these comments and keep things enlivening, enlightening, and straight and steady. I mean, this thread is interesting, but it's also a big mess, and trying to do justice to all the discussion strands is next to impossible.

    I apologize for the irksome density of this response. I had been sitting on a few of these quotes these last few days, intending to plunk down with a fuller response at some point, but slightly shying away from it. Just from a sheer length perspective... Hopefully, I've communicated about 80% of what I wanted to. Or, at least, I have to tell myself that...




    Thank you, Mike. And yes, the reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

    Unfortunately, some fans have always had a tough time dealing in nuance. They want everything to be nice and simple.

    "I said keep it nice and simple..." (RLM reviewing TPM)


    Yes -- a bit of a contradiction. But what's new with these complaints, eh?

    Overall, though, Lucas is a very powerful figure, with an awesome faith in his own sensibilities and a staggering confidence in his ability to make decisions.

    From "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", by J.W. Rinzler, p. 78 (July 2003):

    "I guess I've been accused of being a micromanager, but as far as I'm concerned, that's what making a movie is all about. I'm really responsible for every single detail on the picture. I work with a lot of very talented and creative people, but I have to make sure that it's exactly what I want it to be, because it's so critical that it look natural and fit into the environment. So I have to spend a lot of my time answering questions and making decisions about every little thing. And it goes on for three years solid, nearly every day of the week, hundreds of questions every single day. It never lets up. A friend of mine once said in every shot of a movie, there's a thousand ideas--and that's true, actually."


    Thanks, Mike. I like to throw some elongated waffle on the screen, every now and again. ;)

    No, but, really, this is the amazing thing about Lucas, isn't it? He hints at the rich potential of the film medium; and exposes everyone else as dilettantes. It's actually a bit frightening -- just how few films and filmmakers (at least, in my opinion) really embrace the visual aspects of film to anywhere near their fullest. One could even contend that Lucas' language is hinting that there are no adult films. Why? Because he sees film as an infant medium and humans as a child race: "These are children's movies." With Lucas, there are always sneaky meanings, and beguiling contradictions.

    As Camile Paglia said (her closing sentence) in her celebration of ROTS and Lucas from 2012:

    http://www.chronicle.com/article/why-george-lucas-is-the/134942:

    "He is a man of machines yet a lover of nature, his wily persona of genial blandness masking one of the most powerful and tenacious minds in contemporary culture."




    The chief problem with all those quotes -- and in presenting quotes in that fashion -- is that there's no context for them. As Stanley Kubrick nattily put it: "I don't like doing interviews. There is always the problem of being misquoted or, what's even worse, of being quoted exactly."

    You overlook two key factors:

    1) Lucas' dry, pithy personality. Take that remark of his in your first quote: "I'd rather be home in bed watching television." Are we meant to accept that literally?

    In Dale Pollock's book, "Skywalking: The Life and Films of George Lucas", p. 274 (Updated Edition), he records Lucas saying on the set of ROTJ:

    "I've got to find a clone of myself. I'm getting too old for this."

    And around the same time, explaining why he took the OT to its conclusion, Lucas said:

    "I had a slight compulsion to finish the story."

    These are comically dour statements. Not exactly untrue, but not really the full truth, either. Too old at not-even-40? A slight compulsion?


    2) The immense challenge of bringing Star Wars to the screen with limited budgets and filmmaking technology; plus the stress of getting Skywalker Ranch built and up-and-running; and the enormous stress these difficulties placed on Lucas' marriage (Marcia Lucas filed for divorce within days of ROTJ getting released). Lucas had a pretty hellish time on the first movie and it fell drastically short of how he envisioned it. On TESB, he felt he lost control of the movie to a non-responsive producer who took the director's side. And given that all of his profits were tied up in TESB, and it went overbudget, and the film needed to be a success or Lucas' dreams of a filmmaking retreat, free of studio interference (i.e., Skywalker Ranch), would be over, he worried himself into a frenzy that the movie was too slow and ponderous and would ruin everything he set out to accomplish (it was his money on the line, not Kershner's or Kurtz's). Indeed, he tried cutting the film his way, frantically determined to beat it into a brisker, more ANH-esque shape, but it didn't work, and he then had to swallow his pride and relent. Finally, by ROTJ, while TESB had proved a success with audiences (though less popular than the original), the task of making these films was more arduous than Lucas expected. He became intellectually and emotionally (and financially) invested in them: he had to see the original story through to completion. But it had also become a millstone around his neck. He had developed a sort of love-hate relationship with Star Wars. The sheer impossibility of bringing three extraordinarily technical, imaginative, and yes, ambitious, pictures to the screen nearly defeated him -- and it did ultimately cost him his marriage.

    This real-life narrative needs to be kept in mind whenever reading anything pre-PT about directing from Lucas' lips. One might posit, in fact, that he was suffering from something like a filmmaking equivalent of PTSD. There is a fairly striking autobiographical motif at work in the prequels with a fatigued and PTSD-ish Anakin cracking up in ROTS, having battled (or still battling) war, loss, frustration, divided loyalties, etc.; including premonitions of losing his wife! One shouldn't take this aspect lightly. Lucas seems to be a person who internalizes stress. He was dealing with a million problems on the first film and wound up in hospital because of all the frustration and anxiety -- he was chronically stressed! All in all, it's not exaggerating very much to say that the original trilogy really took a piece of his soul. His disdain of directing, back then, is, at the very least, understandable. Shame how it's now being used, in my opinion, as a chain to beat the latter-day Lucas with; as if those are his real feelings for all of time.



    Sorry, but the above, juxtaposed with the following, is absolutely hilarious:


    Er -- ya???

    Who is the one coming out with Internet forum fan theories here? You or Mike?



    Why, I wonder, are you always trying to dictate the terms of a discussion, terminate discussion lines, and calling for thread titles to be altered?


    Lucas has never enjoyed brutal criticism. Frankly, who does?

    But here are some other things he said during the time of ROTS:


    "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", p. 188 (June 2004):

    "I had to make a decision, and I decided that I'm not going to alter the film to make it more commercial or marketable. I have to be true to my vision, which is thirty years old, but I have to be true to it."

    And to Leslie Stahl on "60 Minutes" in March 2005:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/star-wars-goes-to-hell/

    But doesn't it hurt?

    "Oh, it always hurts. It hurts a great deal. But part of making movies is you get attacked, and sometimes in very personal ways. The point is, like if you paint your house white and somebody comes over, 'Well that should be a green house.' Well, fine, but I wanted to paint it white. I don't think there was anything wrong with painting it white. I don't think there's anything wrong with me for painting it white. Maybe it should be a green house, but I didn't want it to be a green house. I wanted it to be a white house."

    Then, more recently, back in March 2013, Lucas was again interviewed by CBS, and he said the following:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50142204n
    Discussion link: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/new-hints-on-lucas-future.50010220/

    "I had a great Chapter One, I had an even better Chapter Two, and I have high hopes for Chapter Three."


    After TPM had already breached the American box office and been out for eight weeks and was about to open in the UK, Lucas did an interview with "Empire" magazine:

    http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-archive-george-lucas-1999-interview/

    You've often said that Star Wars movies are primarily meant for children, but The Phantom Menace was always going to be a film that was going to be significant for twenty/thirtysomethings. How did you address this problem?

    "Basically I didn't. I kept it as it was originally intended. You can't play too much to the marketplace. It's the same thing with the fans. The fans' expectations had gotten way high and they wanted a film that was going to change their lives and be the Second Coming. You know, I can't do that, it's just a movie. And I can't say, now I gotta market it to a whole different audience. I tell the story. I knew if I'd made Anakin 15 instead of nine, then it would have been more marketable. If I'd made the Queen 18 instead of 14, then it would have been more marketable. But that isn't the story. It is important that he be young, that he be at an age where leaving his mother is more of a drama than it would have been at 15. So you just have to do what's right for the movie, not what's right for the market."

    And further down:

    Speaking of Jar Jar Binks, certain sections of the fanbase and audience have violently taken against him. Can you see where they are coming from?

    "Yeah. It's always been there. There's a group of fans who don't like comic sidekicks. They wanna see The Terminator, they wanna see a different kind of movie. But this isn't that movie. That same group of fans absolutely hated R2 and C3PO in the first film; in the second film they hated Yoda, he was not a well-liked character – "we can't understand what he's talking about, he's green, he's a muppet." In the third film, they hated the Ewoks, couldn't stand the cute little sidekick characters – "we don't like it. It makes it beyond a children's film." They can't stand it that there is this aspect to these movies, but comic sidekick characters have been in every single movie."

    And will they continue to be?

    "And they will continue. I'm sorry if they don't like it. They should go back and see The Matrix or something. These are PG movies. I'm not gonna take those kinds of characters out. Obviously when you get a small group of fans who hate something, it becomes compounded by the internet. The press picks up the internet like it's a source. They don't realise it is just one person typing out their opinion. It's been my experience, and the experience of 20th Century Fox, that most of the people who go to the movie, at least 95 per cent, love Jar Jar. He's extremely popular with kids. He's popular with women. It's funny that the five per cent of the audience - even less probably - who don't like Jar Jar are the ones that get written about. In the toy world, Darth Maul is the biggest seller, but Jar Jar is up there. Part of it is an ageism thing. "I'm cool, I'm hip, I'm embarrassed I'm liking a movie that appeals to young kids." You have to get over the fear of being declared unhip or not tough."


    Gallup polling suggested audiences generally liked TPM (and let's not forget it made almost a billion dollars worldwide at the box office). And, even, that Jar Jar -- an element you claim Lucas revised down in the remaining prequels -- was a well-liked character (he places third behind Qui-Gon and Anakin):

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/3757/public-gives-latest-star-wars-installment-positive-rave-reviews.aspx

    All in all, do these sound like the words of a man who bent to a whiny, hostile, shallow, contemptuous, uncomprehending fanbase?

    Sounds, to me, like Lucas was very happy with the movies he made, and remained defiant in the face of stiff, unrelenting criticism. He wouldn't be the man he is today if he didn't trust his instincts from the start. A lot of OT fans seem to gloss over the opposition Lucas personally endured during the making of the original (perhaps because they want to see it as more of a "group effort" to prove their anti-Lucas thesis that "filmmaking is a collaborative process").



    BTW, I love two quotes in that Empire article especially:

    "They should go back and see The Matrix or something."
    "You have to get over the fear of being declared unhip or not tough."


    Words to live by.




    The deal here is...

    We can all bandy around quotes to show how much Lucas allegedly dislikes writing and directing; seeing them as more of a chore than any sort of real creative outlet. But the world is full of subtle shades.

    As I tried communicating above, Lucas' early remarks really call for the careful application of context. For instance, this semi-famous quotation from "Rolling Stone" magazine, right after the first film came out, encapsulates a lot of his acrimonious attitude -- but also his hopeful vision of the series -- after the "baptism by fire" of the making of the first film:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/the-wizard-of-star-wars-20120504

    "THX was about 70% of what I wanted it to be. I don't think you ever get to the point where it is 100%. Graffiti was about 50% of what I wanted it to be but I realized that the other 50% would have been there, if I just had a little more time and a little more money. Star Wars is about 25% of what I wanted it to be. It's really down there quite a bit. It's still a good movie, but it fell so short of what I wanted it to be. And everyone said, "Well, Jesus, George, you wanted the moon for Chrissake, or you wanted to land on Pluto and you landed on Mars". I think the sequels will be much, much better. What I want to do is direct the last sequel. I could do the first one and the last one and let everyone else do the ones in between."

    So there we see Lucas giving a fairly brutal evaluation of SW/ANH relative to his personal standards -- it is "25%" of what he wanted it to be (in 2004, on Charlie Rose, he would recant that number and say: "In fact, it is probably 75% of what I wanted it to be, but to me it felt emotionally like it was 25%"; which is another good insight into how the technical problems of the first film wore him down and influenced his outlook). On the other hand, he looks forward to ploughing back into Star Wars at a later time, after giving other people a shot to interpret a theme, venturing the notion that he could "direct the last sequel". This implies he was reasonably keen on directing again, but that he wanted to put some distance between himself and the directorial side of filmmaking first.

    Lucas desired to let other people sweat it, take inspiration from them, and then wrap the whole thing up to his own satisfaction. That was his original plan. Of course, it didn't quite go that way (life has a habit of interfering with even the best-laid plans), but sort of: Kershner, one of Lucas' own mentors, was brought on for TESB (and given first refusal to direct ROTJ), then Marquand (albeit more controllable than Kershner; and control could be the biggest theme in Star Wars), with Lucas entering the "Second Chapter" of his life and taking on the reins of the prequels himself, and then selling to Disney and letting them bear the weight of the third trilogy and all subsequent Star Wars outings. It would seem that semi-retiring for a while, taking on the new challenge of raising kids, and then the advent of digital technology: all these opened doors in his mind that allowed him to gear himself up for the possibility of returning to directing and making the prequels himself (even though, yes, he shopped around for other directors for Episode I, initially).



    Nuance is still being missed here. In my view, Mike is right to conjecture that Lucas developed a more positive attitude to writing and directing during the prequel era, and that it was the difficulties surrounding the development/production of the OT that soured him, somewhat, on the likelihood (back in the 80s) of ever taking on the task of another trilogy; and equally informed his estimation of his own abilities in these areas. In fact, not many filmmakers both write and direct -- yet Lucas has come up with the stories for every Star Wars episode (pre-Disney, anyway; I want to leave that topic alone for the purpose of this post...), he's either written or co-written every screenplay, he has explicitly directed four of them, part-directed a fifth, and storyboarded and edited all six; not to mention his production responsibilities and him being the founder and CEO of about six companies. And for all that, while he might have said it with a small degree of false modesty, he's expressed a preference to be best remembered for, hopefully, being a good dad (though, again, assay a double meaning: he is also the "father" of Star Wars; and the movies, as he has described them, are like his children: he raised them and each has their own personality).


    It's at this point that I have to deliver a mini bombshell.

    Lucas on direction and fame in 1999:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/1999/02/star-wars


    “I’ve gotten much better performances out of my aliens this time,” says Lucas, who cites the relative backwardness of computer-imaging technology in the early 80s as one of the reasons he stopped making Star Wars films.

    And then:

    The most difficult part of returning to Star Wars, he says, has been neither the directing (“much more fun than it used to be”) nor the pressure of following up an assured classic, but the knowledge that his involvement in the prequels makes him a public figure again. “If there’s any trepidation I have, it’s issues with the media, which has gotten much more savage and worse and gossipy,” he says. “Nobody wants to be Bill Clinton, but anyone who ends up doing anything worthwhile these days ends up being Bill Clinton.”


    "Much more fun than it used to be."


    Read that again with emphasis: "Much more fun".


    And yes, Lucas articulating a "trepidation" with media ominously presages a wider reality that developed, culminating in the sale to Disney. But so what? He achieved what he set out to do; and he clearly enjoyed himself along the way.

    Though, it must also be asked: Should art always be enjoyable? There's a very peculiar conflict here on both sides. Whichever view you cling to, what's being obscured is how radical Lucas is; how adroitly his mind works. Ironically, while I felt somewhat forced into doing this, studying Lucas' words in isolation -- putting them on a platform -- is a road to nowhere. It's like hearing a composer talk about their symphony without you ever hearing it. Anyway, for the sake of getting to the end of this, soldiering on...


    From 1994, here is Lucas on writing, as he sets out to fashion a screenplay for Episode I on the first day of writing (1st November):

    "Star Wars Episode I: All I Need Is An Idea Webisode":



    "It's great to be able to sit by myself and just be able to do this--it's like a real luxury, actually. And, you know, I don't feel a lot of pressure--it's kind of fun. I'm getting to do a lot of research, which I love to do, and I'm getting a chance to think."

    The "real luxury" he is referring to, I think, is having delegated the running of his companies to other people. He's free, for the first time in a decade, to sit and contemplate and let his imagination run wild. Are his comments something of a rationalization? Perhaps. But we're all complicated. And that is just my point in introducing these quotes here.


    Lucas continues:


    "I get to do a lot things, now, that I couldn't do before. Create things that weren't possible to create. Before I was always, and I will be on this, but I was always been sort of at the limit of what is possible, in terms of storytelling. Things have advanced so far in the last twenty years, in terms of your ability to portray things on the screen, that were just literally impossible before."

    These remarks clearly allude to (primarily) digital technology -- freeing Lucas' mind up like never before. He had an especially tough time making the OT because, even before running into all the difficulties in production, he had to downgrade his vision when writing to work within the constraints of the technology available. And the technology available was extremely primitive back then (it's funny, actually, how the OT climaxes with "primitives" bringing down an "empire"). In fact, in "From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga", Lucas describes how they took technology from a "zero point", so that he could just begin to start telling the kind of story -- making the kind of cinema -- he envisioned:



    Direct link: 57:13

    "In the first film, we took special effects from a kind of 'zero' point, and got it up and running to the point where I could tell the story that I wanted to tell -- space battle, fast-moving -- and get the point across, just barely. A lot of it was done editorially, a lot of it was done, sorta tricks, sleight of hand. But we had gone so far in realizing a concept of special effects, just moving spaceships, I mean, being able to pan with spaceships, and be able to have a certain cinematic freedom, in shooting those kinds of effects; that had a very powerful impact on the storytelling, a dramatic impact."

    It was those early, crippling limitations that had a principal, derailing effect on Lucas' plans. In some ways, he wanted to make a set of movies in the mold of the James Bond franchise, but he was too wedded to quality, and the technology still too basic, for him to just slough the movies off and turn into a simple-minded, money-grabbing movie mogul. He wouldn't easily entrust the saga to others. He still saw Star Wars as his own unique creation. So, in a way, you could call Lucas writing and directing the prequels, destiny.


    Similarly, in "The Making of The Phantom Menace" by Laurent Bouzereau and Jody Duncan, p. 105, Lucas plainly asserts:

    "Writing the script was much more enjoyable this time around because I wasn't constrained by anything. I didn't have to say to myself, 'Well, I can't have one of these creatures, because there's no way to do it with a guy in a suit.' You can't write one of these movies without knowing how you're going to accomplish it. With CG at my disposal, I knew I could do whatever I wanted."

    So there we have it (if we're putting stock in printed quotes). Directing TPM (per the earlier quote) was "much more fun", and writing it was "much more enjoyable". Seems digital technology gave Lucas the sort of experience he dreamt of having on the original trilogy, but knew was impossible to achieve back then. Come the 90s (specifically: "Jurassic Park"), he was finally free to communicate on a level never attempted in cinema before.

    Which is still to take nothing away from Lucas and what he remains at heart (as, indeed, is implicit in all of the above quotes): an editor, an illustrator, a fixer, a tinkerer; a visual essayist; a frustrated architect. He likes to take raw material and make it into something. He likes to re-arrange and re-configure. He has highly developed graphical abilities. He doesn't really make movies; he crafts mosaics. Here are a few choice quotes to round things off:


    Lucas on his methodology as taken from "Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays", edited by Laurent Bouzereau, 1997, p. 319:

    "The way I work is that I cut the movie together, I look at it and figure out what's missing. At that point, it's more about how the movie flows together rather than how the script flows together. I'm acknowledging more and more that a script and a movie are two different things."


    Lucas elaborates on his methodology in "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", p. 116 (August 2003):

    "To me, the script is just a sketchbook, just a list of notes, and, sometimes, I prefer the documentary feel of free flow, so I let my instincts tell me where to go. I like to create cinematically; I don't like to have a plan. I like to have a rough idea of what I'm going to do--certain themes, certain issues I'm going to deal with--and then I try to do so. At first, I shoot around the movie--and then [in the editing room], I figure out where the movie is in the middle of all this."


    And a quote that provides even more illumination from Ben Burtt, also from "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", p. 180 (March 2004):

    "His approach is very close to how someone would do an animated movie. I call it recomposing the movie. You're free to split apart the visual elements within a shot--the people, the objects, the setting--and rearrange them. We put in a shoulder, raise an arm, take out a blink. This is the process we do every day. There isn't a shot or a scene or a moment that isn't deeply affected by this process, and there isn't a day in the editing room where we don't discover something interesting through that process."




    So the prequels are very "George Lucas" movies -- through and through.

    You can resonate to the eccentric, chimerical beauty of them; or you can continue to deride them and lament their very existence, I guess.

    I choose to enjoy them. To be endlessly fascinated by them. To cherish them as not just unique movies, but unique forms of art -- existing within a lively, oscillating, and growing (but all-too-often-dulled) field of human consciousness.

    And here is an art form rich in dualistic meaning; which arises from a dualism. Whether you want to talk about tone, construction, intent, cinematography, effects, character, story, these movies display incredible symbiotic properties -- and they derive, predominantly, from a singular film/myth-obsessed mind.

    How wonderful is that? It's a singular human personality, with many contradictory currents within them, that stamped a part of his mini-cosmos into our mini-cosmoses. A sort of "Living Force" that creates, sustains, and enriches itself. The artwork stands as a unique expression of cosmic impulses -- a melding of mind with destiny.
     
  20. Valiowk

    Valiowk Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2000
    I just wanted to point out additionally that there is no necessary implication "doesn't like directing ⇒ can't direct", just as liking directing doesn't imply that one would necessarily be a good director either. One can dislike doing something yet do it well simply because one have sufficient talent for it (but find it tedious, boring, conflicts with other parts of their character etc.) and feel responsible for delivering something that meets one's standards of quality.

    So it defeats my understanding why we've spent so many pages discussing whether or not Lucas likes directing when it doesn't necessarily imply anything relevant to the discussion.
     
  21. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    BTW...

    I thought the edit limit on this forum got changed to 90 mins? I really need it. [face_laugh]

    Camille Paglia.


    And this:





    To the above, I wanted to add the following...




    That quote (above) has a strain of intensity to it which echoes what Lucas says to Leslie Stahl in an interview segment placed at the beginning of, well, "The Beginning":



    "The auteur theory of film, actually, is very true if you know directors, because they are very much like their movies. And in the case of somebody who writes and directs, you know, it *is* my life. I mean, everything I write is my life. I'm not writing some sort of hypothetical thesis on something. I'm writing a story that I have to get extremely emotionally involved in 'cos it's gonna take two or three years of my life to do it. So I can't just sort of say, 'Oh, this'll be fun', and knock off in a week. I have to--this is like a marriage. This goes on--you have to be in love with this thing for at least four or five years, and probably for the rest of your life."


    On any major film -- any major undertaking, for that matter -- you can't really assume a casual indifference. You have to be all-in; because it'll demand of you everything you have. I place these quotations together to refute the notion (and it has been circling, for many years, now) that Lucas just sailed through these movies; or didn't care too much about the writing or directing. He profoundly applied himself to every aspect. It's just that, in the case of writing, for example, he has also gone to some lengths to stress that he places more importance on the visuals (and, I think, most people would credit him with greater visual than verbal skills). But that doesn't mean the writing of the movies wasn't undertaken with extreme care. The writing had an important role to play in these movies; not least in giving Lucas a chance to think through scenes and themes and develop the basic structure of each movie and the trilogy as a whole.

    The idea that Lucas breezed through any one aspect, or that he felt it could all be saved in editing, doesn't do justice to the serious regard he has for the totality of the filmmaking experience, in my opinion. And then, dammit, what's actually wrong with the dialogue? There's an epigrammatic dimension to many of the lines (they're deceptively simple/banal); and the dialogue, as a whole, becomes one more layer of rhythmic frosting -- a flinty, stylized, 1940s radio-play ambience that burnishes all that visual, aural, and tonal otherworldiness; a comic-book-like ritualistic haze. One could make a similar argument for the direction. Did Lucas just invoke all that chilly distancing of the lofty rituals of an ancient society -- "a more civilized age" -- by accident? No, no, I think it was very purposeful. Strange characters leading strange lives in strange worlds that can't be fully penetrated. People need to give "THX" another spin. Really.

    It's like these films are always getting compared to other films. They are never embraced on their own terms.

    What's that? A purple leaf? Leaves should only be yellow, orange, brown, or green.

    Away with the purple!
     
  22. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Cryogenic....

    Unfortunately I am on my phone right now, so I cannot give your post the absolute proper response.

    However, I wanted to first and foremost say Thank You for your hardwork and research in debunking the silly narrative set forth by some in this thread.

    The quote from Lucas himself stating that directing the PT was "much more fun than it used to be" is just delicious. Vindication for those of us that have stood by the belief that yes, there are aspects of directing that Lucas really dislikes, and those aspects were born largely out of those early years, but, his view has softened because those obstacles and problems that he endured before were largely removed. So now he can say he is having fun! The idea that people can't change their mind, can't evolve over the course of 20, 30 years is ridiculous.

    Like I said, your post deserves a better response, one I hope to be able to feebily conjure up in the next 24 hours, but, no follow-up that I can ever compose can do your post justice! Just terrific work! Terrific research!

    I agree with you, but....

    One of the things to take away from this specific discussion is that this is a perfect example of the extent the "embittered fans" of Star Wars will go to to demonize the Prequels.

    We have "fans" whom clearly have an already established narrative in their mind, the PT sucks, and are doing everything they can to continue that narrative and prove it to everyone else. What this discussion about Lucas and directing shows is that they will do whatever they can to hold onto that narrative. We have seen those "embittered fans" flat out ignore contradictory quotes by Lucas that suggest that he didn't hate everything about directing, and the things about directing he did hate were because of limitations of the time. Or if they aren't ignoring the other information that is being provided, they try to twist some quotes to fit their narrative while taking others at face value.

    The truth, as now reinforced so brilliantly by Cryogenic, has once again exposed their bias. No matter how many times they want to repost the quotes from Lucas that supports their narrative, the evidence continues to mount that how Lucas feels about directing is not as cut and dry as they want to make it seem. And that hurts their narrative, that they have built up in their heads, by cherry picked quotes, ignored other quotes, twisted quotes to their liking etc etc..

    This discussion about Lucas and directing is a microcosm of how the "embittered fans" have gone self-fulfilling their narratives. Largely by demonizing Lucas.
     
  23. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I know that various people say this but that is based on the idea that they would be like you and accept his story in the first place.

    This of course is not applicable to many of the fans we are talking about who would want someone to do what they think was done on TESB in the first place never mind that really isn't the way it happened.

    Lucas didn't really "collaborate" with LK on the story and script per se. Not in the way they for whatever reason intepret that to mean on TESB. That is actually more indicative of ROTJ's process (and it's just as likely that they are in the group that then ignore LK's role there because it didn't meet with their alternate to reality version of how TESB happened).

    Lucas apparently asked Kasdan in some capacity but he was working on movies that either never got made or were total disasters.

    For those fans it's a good thing that LK didn't work on the PT because to their eyes he would have "lost his touch" because like the other movies it still would have been Lucas' show. They like to imagine that somehow the actual stories would change and Anakin would be a teenager and all the rest of the usual they want and never were going to get.

    Someone else directing the movies would really have been useless since no one else would know what was going on. Lucas would have to be there all the time anyway every day making the hundreds of decisions a day mentioned previously.

    When you are the film-maker spending a hundred million dollars to make the movie and it's your story it makes no sense for anyone else to do it just like it made no real sense for Lucas not to do TESB or ROTJ in the first place but as so well gone over he had a emotional block about actually being the director.

    I appreciate the work of IK and RM but I think that if Lucas had been the day to day director for all 6 it would have been nothing but to the overall good of the saga.
     
    Ezon Pin likes this.
  24. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Before anyone responds, I just want to urge people not to take the bait in the second half of mikeximus post. The discussion had been about the extent to which Lucas enjoyed the directing process and about the decisions he had made while making these films. But to describe the side opposing him as "embittered fans", trying to "continue that narrative", being "exposed", "twisting quotes", "demonizing the Prequels", and "demonizing Lucas" is just an attempt to get people riled up. Please nobody take the bait and let's just continue the discussion when we have worthwhile contributions to make.

    Cryogenic managed to make an on-topic post without insulting any posters and whilst raising some interesting points, so good on him. I don't have too much time for a detailed response, but my own stance is that I agree with his message of "nuance". I don't think Lucas hated directing. If we look at the movie-making process as a whole, there are clearly portions of it that he enjoys. However, and I still stand by this, I think he doesn't really like the on set/location part of it. We've seen quotes/interviews of him mentioning that it's more fun than before since he can realize his vision to a greater extent. And you know, I agree with that. But at the same time, we can't ignore what Rick McCallum said about Lucas after the prequels were already finished (that he hates directing). I would say that the truth probably involves a bit of both sides, where he did enjoy it more than before, but it's still something he saw as simply a necessary stepping stone in order to get to what he really liked: editing and post-production.

    Qui-Riv-Brid
    I guess what I meant is that Kasden has described TESB's story as being a "skeleton" when he first got started. I basically appreciate the work he contributed in fleshing out all the details.
     
  25. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014
    I pray there will not be a "do all embittered SW fans demonize Lucas " thread. :p Although I'm being tongue and cheek here I want to put a shout to DD to say no hard feelings . When he says its not a knock on GL and the Prequels I believe him.

    Carry on....I'm enjoying three awesome GL quotes . I tend to believe GL when it comes from his mouth and not a third party no matter how close he's with them. And Cryo said somethings that resonate me especially GL changing his mind/ or perhaps contradicts his earlier views there are nuances involved in it.

    Cheers!

    MJ
     
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