PT Political Structure of the Republic

OK, so for us politically inclined, I wanted to discuss how the Republic is configured, because that has implications for the position of Tatooine AND for the Separatist Crisis.

So I'd like to air some of my views and the alternatives I can perceive.

• The Republic is a kind of Galaxy-wide Commonwealth; it has no borders, and proclaims to be for all Beings in the Galaxy - a Republic without limit and Manifest Destiny-ish. This one is my personal view.
  • The implications this has for Tatooine is that Tatooine is nominally in the Republic, and anti-slavery laws should apply there, but the Republic doesn't have the executive and military power out there to enforce it. Either that, or they don't want to offend the Hutts. The Outer Rim might be called the Territories because the Republic is expanding there in an administrative sense after having 'claimed' it, or it might just be another way of saying 'That general region'.
  • The implications that this has for the Clone Wars is pretty serious. If the Republic claims to be a borderless, universalist Commonwealth, people declaring that they are no longer part of that, and that they never will be, since the Republic can't be fixed - undermines the very foundation and meaning of the Republic itself. It's basically a political heresy that MUST be stamped out or otherwise dealt with
  • This means that the Jedi, a sovereign or autonomous body serving the Republic, have duties all through the Galaxy
• The Republic has nominal control of most of the Galaxy, but there are some systems outside of it. Systems within the Republic are unsure whether or not they have complete sovereignty or not, similar to the US in the early 1830s
  • This would mean that Tatooine is not even nominally part of the Republic, and is run by the Hutts both in practice and name. Kamino would also have complete independence.
  • The Clone Wars, politically, would be a bit like the American Civil War - people argue over the legality and practicality of the move. If systems can secede, then that basically nullifies the power of the Republic, since a system can always turn around and say 'I secede!' every time they don't like a law. But since nobody is sure about this, there is a LOT of arguing on the Senate floor about the best course of action. The place is a tinderbox.
  • This ALSO means that the Jedi, before the War, as an independent religious body, liaised with the Senate, but could have plausibly gone and acted beyond the Republic's geographical borders, but as soon as they got put in charge of the GAR, they got inextricably politically aligned with the Republic for the duration of the war. They politically lost the right to be independent arbiters and negotiators between the two groups, because they had become soldiers of one side.
• The Republic is Space EU/UN and the Separatist Crisis is Space Brexit.
  • This basically means that although there's a place for grievances to be aired, and encouragement of economic and cultural exchanges, universal trade laws, etc, each system has its own sovereign government which can pretty much do what it likes and only has to pay lip service to the Republic, which can't step on any abuses because that would be considered 'an internal matter of a sovereign body'.
  • This would mean, again, that the Hutts aren't supposed to enslave people, but nobody can legally do anything about it.
  • This would make having a war over the Separatist Crisis a bit harder, since they're legally entitled to secede, but certainly not impossible, given enough fear mongering. Palatine could have easily spread fear of an economic crisis caused by loss of markets and resources. Or he could have said that the Galaxy would enter into a bipolar Cold War-Esque situation. Or he could have said that since the CIS are building an army and have that greedy Trade Federation on their side, that they might turn around and attack any minute for resources. Or that since there will now be two superpowers in the Galaxy, it's a good idea to have an army for defense. And there will still be some people who have no war in living memory, and who want revenge on those Seppies for seceding.
  • This means that the Jedi would technically be independent, and a bit like the Vatican having Observer Status in the UN . . . until they all got turned into the Republic's generals.

So what do you think, guys?

 

None of the above. The Republic is simply the established democratic government of most of the galaxy. It does have borders, which are limited to the systems and corporations that are part of it. The Outer Rim is not the Republic. Independent systems are not the Republic. The separatist movement is a collective of systems that have decided to leave the Republic. Many systems are leaving which creates unrest and conflict. As the separatist movement grows, there's fear that they can attack the Republic which doesn't have an army to defend itself. There are only the Jedi but they are very few and are not soldiers.

 

Do you think the pre-War Jedi are subordinate to the Senate, or are they completely independent? Or perhaps something else?

 

A lot of the Outer Rim is part of the Republic. Tatooine is even nominally part of the Republic... just like those old Wild West towns were nominally part of the United States, despite the US having no power there unless they sent in troops.

TPM mentions that Chancellor Valorum has sent two Jedi, and I think other materials have also referenced how the Jedi ultimately reported to the Senate.

 

Oh OK. I guess I didn't get the bit about the Jedi reporting to the Senate because I'm so used to the idea of faith as non-political and unbordered.

 

The senate doesn't care about Jedi religious matters, the Order just answers to them when it comes to taking action so you don't have ten thousand space wizards running around playing vigilante because they think they know better, and getting in the way of diplomatic efforts they didn't know were going on. This also keeps them from developing a culture where they think they have the right to trample around barging into situations where they may not be wanted or needed because they have the power and they know better than you do; that way lies darkness, even if you mean well initially. The Jedi wait quietly until they are asked, and only the most dire emergency (like a Sith taking over the Republic) is enough to make them break that taboo. Otherwise, the galaxy must be largely left to its own development, and not the development the Jedi might want it to have; it's not their place to say.

Also Tatooine is absolutely not the Republic. It's even right there in TPM: "If he'd been born in the Republic..." There's also the treaty in TCW that the Republic is obligated to sign with Hutt Space in order to use their hyperspace lanes during the war. The old EU "Power of the Jedi" book that was intensely detailed about the Order and the Jedi way of life also went into detail about the complexities of dealing with Hutt Space, and how the Jedi couldn't just go over the border and do whatever the heck they wanted because their actions would have larger consequences and negatively impact other people.

 

The Jedi Order aren't a religion. The Force is scientifically proven. The Jedi Order is just an organization that trains themselves in it.

The Jedi making themselves follow the Republic first is one of their greatest flaws, and something the first Jedi probably didn't do and I don't think it's what Luke intended his Jedi to do either.

Padme: "the Republic's anti-slavery laws..."
Shmi: "the Republic doesn't exist out here"

They are nominally in the Republic, but it has no real influence there. Which confuses Padme, but Qui-gon and Shmi both understand. And when they do become interested, searching for a couple droids, they have no problem occupying its spaceports. And they have no problem accepting recruits from Tatooine to their academies.

And the Jedi had that problem because they were seen as ambassadors of the Republic, not independent agents.

 

Faith has nothing to do with it other than how they work and behave. The Jedi serve as police, law enforcement and peacekeepers. And they've always reported to the senate, which is the representative body of democracy in the galaxy. The Jedi Order is internally independent but serves the senate.

How exactly is it a flaw? The Jedi are not vigilantes.

Uh?! The Empire is not the Republic. And Tatooine is not in the Republic either, nominally or otherwise. That quote of Padmé is just a sign of her naiveté.

Tatooine is controlled by the Hutts. It's Hutt space.

P.S: Midi-chlorians are not scientific proof of the Force. Midi-Chlorians are life forms and the basis of life. The Jedi know (scientifically or not) that they are what allows living beings to connect with the Force.

 

The Jedi shouldn't be government agents. And maybe sometimes they should be vigilantes, or at least go beyond where the Republic holds power.



I don't get the confusion. The main point of the PT is that the Republic is the Empire. Tatooine was in both, it even had a Republic senator for that sector and later an Imperial governor.

If you're going by the Atlas, Tatooine is outside Hutt Space.
(It could also be argued that the Republic is nominally supposed to control Hutt Space too, and it is clearly an Imperial client state)

 

They're not really government agents, but they're not totally independent either. The Jedi work with the Senate because the Senate chose to disband the military force after the last war with the Sith and chose to rely on the Jedi Order and local security to handle matters of importance. Most of the problems are handled within the Senate and local security. The Jedi are typically the last resort as they're more impartial as they're not government officials in the strictest sense. Acting independently would cause more harm than good, which is how the Sith got started. Remember, in the real world, most government agencies don't just rush in without tactical approval of the government itself. This is where alliances come from. The FBI doesn't rush into Mexico to arrest a suspect who has fled over the boarder. Diplomatic and law enforcement negotiations are required before any action is taken. Same with the Jedi and the Senate, hence what happened in TCW film. When Obi-wan goes to Geonosis in AOTC, he's arrested and tried as a spy because he went against Geonosian law. The Jedi Order's right to be there was revoked by the Archduke of Geonosis, which was Poogle the Lesser.

As to Tatooine, it was outside Hutt Space technically, but it was ruled by a Hutt and thus it was part of Hutt Space. That's why Qui-gon said that they're safer on Tatooine than someplace that the Federation has jurisdiction over and in turn, it is why Palpatine sent Maul to go get Padme. Not just because the Jedi were there and only he could deal with them, but Maul could go to Tatooine without causing a ruckus compared to a Federation ship.

 

Why? The Jedi should use their powers to keep the peace. And they can only do it legally by working with the senate, who represents the people.

Why should they be vigilantes? That's against the way.

The Republic is not the Empire. It was turned into one. With the Empire's expansion for control and power, Tatooine got under its control. And who exactly represented Tatooine in the Republic? That'a a rethorical question, since it's impossible.

I'm going by the movies.

 

This is a discussion that's been going on these boards, especially the Literature Forum, for over a decade.

The Senate does not represent all the people.

And their ways should change.

The movies never mention Hutt Space as a political entity.


The Republic is the Empire. They are the same government, after reforms.

Tatooine is in the Arkanis Sector, part of the Republic/Empire.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Arkanis_Sector

Just because the Trade Federation doesn't have a presence there, and the Republic doesn't have a real presence there, doesn't mean it's not nominally supposed to be in the Republic. The Hutts are gangsters, not legitimate government.
As for the first paragraph, that's why the Jedi should be completely independent, and not the equivalent of the FBI... so they can go in and do things without being a symbol of the Republic.

 

All the people? No. The people within the Republic that live in a democracy? Yes.

The corruption shouldn't exist. Their ways are not the problem.

Political?! They are mobsters and they hold a considerable amount of power beyond the Republic.

Qui-Gon: "[Tatooine]'s controlled by the Hutts."
Panaka: "You can't take Her Royal Highness there. The Hutts are gangsters. If they discovered her—"

No, they aren't the same. One was turned into the other. And one of the differences is what allowed the Empire to take over Tatooine.

 

So you agree.

(and even in places like Naboo, the Senator is appointed. Other Senators are corrupt, or never even visit all planets in their sector.)

In my opinion, the Jedi should change.

And I'm not the only one who has talked about the Jedi no longer serving the government.
And Luke himself, 6 years before TFA, is known to be training his new generation of Jedi completely isolated from the Republic.

That's my point.

Arkanis Sector was always considered part of the Republic.
The United States was also once a confederation, and then we got a new constitution. But they were the same. The Republic is the Empire. This is the point of the entire saga. The good can turn evil. Anakin into Vader, the Republic into the Empire.

 

Great analysis SavedByChristAlone

The actual name of the Galactic Republic is the Galactic Republic of Sovereign Systems(at least according to the Insider's Guide to Episode One CD-Rom.

The Republic is a confederation or planetary compact where the planets have the supremacy regarding alliances and agreements between systems while the central government on Coruscant handles disputes between those.

There is also an element of taxation for the central government, namely the taxation of trade routes.

The central government also controls the organization of some of the galactic space through free-trade zones. That is where the Trade Federation prospered and grew their trade franchises.

The central government also does not have a sizable professional standard army. They have an Republic Defense Forces, but it is smaller in size. Most planets are responsible for their own defense.

The Galactic Republic is akin to the United Nations or a confederation of sovereign bodies who have the ultimate say and composition of the central government. There appears to be no Galactic Republic supremacy over much of anything.

Sources: The Phantom Menace, directed by George Lucas
Episode I Visual Dictionary
The Phantom Menace novelization by Terry Brooks
Insider's Guide to Episode One CD-Rom

 

Doesn't matter what they do or don't. They are appointed by the electorate through the elected.

That's not an argument.

That doesn't make your opinion any more valid. The Jedi are the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic (the democratic government elected by/representative of the people). That's part of who and what they are. If others want the Jedi to cease to be Jedi, that's on them. But the person who created them and knows what they are doesn't share that view. Nor do I.

I'm unaware of any of that, fortunately (it seems).

Don't know what that is, but if it contradicts the movies then it's not relevant.

 

You're like completely talking past me, Alexrd

Not all worlds have elected leaders. Either way, I don't think the Jedi should be agents of the government.

It's a statement of opinion and values. I don't want the Jedi to be servants of any government. I think that was a flaw in the PT Jedi.

The Jedi are said to the guardians of peace and justice IN THE GALAXY. And that's what they should be, in my opinion.
And the Republic isn't that democratic and pure.
And in the new canon, Luke was raising the new Jedi this way too, as mentioned in the recent novel Bloodline.
The Republic is not a necessary part of the Jedi's identity. They existed before the Republic, and without the Republic.
If individual Jedi want to sign up and serve the Republic in the military, like how Luke chose to sign up as just another pilot/soldier in the Rebel Alliance, then they're free to, in how I think it should be.
And you know George Lucas now? The former owner of Star Wars?

Why? It's going to come up in Episodes 8 and 9.

It doesn't. It's canon. And I linked to you what it was a few posts ago. You're reminding me of someone shutting their eyes and hands over their eyes. Just listen.

 

Again, how is it a flaw?

And they are. The same way a policeman from a certain country is a policeman in the world. But it's one country that gives him jurisdiction and allows him to act in its territory.

"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic."

Irrelevant. It's still a democracy. Corruption and dictatorial actions should be exposed and fought against, but it's still a democracy.

Like I said, I'm not even there.

No, but it's what allows them (through the will of its people) to act as keepers of the peace and justice (aka, being a Jedi).

You're missing the point. It could be a monarchy or even another established democratic system. They can only act with permission. They are not vigilantes. They are not above everyone else.

Not really. If you want to be a Jedi you can do something else, and we see that with Luke too.

I know what he established and what he didn't. Licensed fan works won't change that.

And it's still someone else's take.

If it establishes Tatooine as part of the Republic, then it goes against the movies.

 

I've already described this many, many times. Including in that post. Short version: watch the PT.

And I think they should do more. They serve the Force... all life... not a government. Not agreeing to be Generals in a war against half the galaxy. Not turning a blind-eye to slavery because it's beyond the scope of their government-assigned mission.

It's a Republic, not a democracy. And more like the Roman Republic than a modern republic. There are planets that have a hereditary monarch and aristocracy, who appoint their Senator, in the Old Republic.

And serving the government allows them to becoming unwitting pawns of corrupt and ambitious government officials who don't have the public good in mind.

And sometimes, the interests of the Republic might be counter to the interests of all life / the Force.

Bloodline by Claudia Gray is a very good book. It's about Leia during her last term in the New Republic Senate, the foundation of the Resistance, some origins of the First Order, and Darth Vader's Legacy, while Luke is off-screen on a mission with Ben Solo. About 5-6 years before Episode VII.

They can do it without the Republic. It can hurt, it can also hurt. It's almost a Faustian deal.

I miss when Poggle the Lesser of Geonosis gave them permission to invade his homeworld. Or when the Trade Federation gave them permission to infiltrate their droid army.

The Jedi should be diverse. You train to be a Jedi, but being a Jedi is not itself a job. You can be a Jedi scientist. A Jedi painter. A Jedi pilot. A Jedi soldier. A Jedi spy. A Jedi businessman/philanthropist. A Jedi librarian. A Jedi doctor. A Jedi monk. A Jedi ambassador. And in corrupt societies like Tatooine, I would certainly hope some Jedi are guided by the Force to go there and free the slaves... which would probably go against the slavers' permission.

They didn't have the permission of the Empire to destroy the Death Star either. The Jedi can exist without a government sponsor. And sometimes, definitely should... and even definitely should act against the government.

So you don't see the Sequel Trilogy as canon? Or the EU that Lucas did personally approve?
You do know that Lucas changed his mind a lot too, right?

But still... when did Lucas say the Jedi couldn't exist without the Republic? Or can't act without permission of their government? That seems to go against the entire OT. Or even that it was good the Jedi lost their way and became wartime generals?

It's Star Wars.

Lucas gave them permission to add to and change whatever they wanted. By giving it to them, he gave his "this is official" stamp to them.

If you're going to ignore clear canon, I don't see the point in this conversation.

I already gave my response to this. Padme is naïve because it is technically the Republic, but in reality it isn't. That's the naïve part. Shmi knows the truth, that the Republic doesn't bother with Tatooine. And Qui-gon soon learns how far outside the Republic that Tatooine has fallen too. Padme sees Naboo is in danger of becoming another Tatooine, ignored by the Republic.

 

This is great stuff for me to nerd out too * disappears forever *

 

There's a whole book of maps... that map, regional maps, historical maps, war maps... it's not completely canon anymore, but the Essential Atlas was pretty close to my dream book for Star Wars! I think you can still buy it.

 

In the EU this was explained by there being hyperspace disturbances that made the Galactic West extremely difficult to explore.